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> Weapon AP's, Math after changing ammo
Prime Mover
post Apr 4 2009, 12:40 PM
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Example: AK-97 has a standard Damage6P & AP-1. Now if I load that weapon with Ex Ex rounds at our table we treat the new codes as Damage7p & AP-2. By RAW the weapons standard AP values disappear when you change ammo. Is this right or just a quirk in the examples? How's everyone else rule it?

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hobgoblin
post Apr 4 2009, 12:54 PM
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what example would that be?

never mind.

yes, the original AP goes out the window ones anything but a standard bullet is loaded.
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Prime Mover
post Apr 4 2009, 01:07 PM
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I get that by RAW the original AP goes out the window. Have one or more players who are looking to house rule it otherwise. Guess I've always just added numbers together without thinking about it, now considering returning it to RAW.

The argument being the bonus comes from the quality of the weapon not the round. (As caliber isn't a factor.)
I'm still dangling on the fence on this one.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 4 2009, 01:43 PM
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ugh, not really a debate i want to get to deep into, as my knowledge of firearms is anything but useful (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

lets just say that the physics can get very complicated, and that SR tries to keep it simple for laymen playability...
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Draco18s
post Apr 4 2009, 01:57 PM
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So a sniper rifle (AP -4) loaded with Ex Ex ammo has AP -2?
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Prime Mover
post Apr 4 2009, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 4 2009, 09:57 AM) *
So a sniper rifle (AP -4) loaded with Ex Ex ammo has AP -2?


Thats exactly were we've had a problem lately with our team sniper wanting to know why his weapon becomes less dangerous if he uses more powerful ammo.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 4 2009, 02:16 PM
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armor results in a increased likelihood that it will detonate outside of the target?
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Draco18s
post Apr 4 2009, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Apr 4 2009, 09:09 AM) *
Thats exactly were we've had a problem lately with our team sniper wanting to know why his weapon becomes less dangerous if he uses more powerful ammo.


Or if we take a sniper rifle and replace the standard ammo with APDS ammo. By getting better and more expensive ammo our AP modifier hasn't changed.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 4 2009, 02:31 PM
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err, APDS is -4, only the barret comes with that pr standard. and it fires its own kind of ammo (or not, i could have sworn it did tho...). the rest is -3 (arsenal 176).
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Draco18s
post Apr 4 2009, 02:34 PM
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Having not felt like cracking open a book I'll say "touche" but the point remains. APDS is -4 AP better than regular ammo, why is it only "-1 better" in a sniper rifle?

The bullet isn't falling apart in mid air, because that would be silly (and illogical: an APDS round is a normal bullet with a super-dense core).
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Apr 4 2009, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Apr 4 2009, 01:40 PM) *
By RAW the weapons standard AP values disappear when you change ammo.

Nope:
QUOTE (SR4A, p. 323 @ Apr 4 2009)
The ammunition’s Damage Modifier and AP Modifier are added to the weapon’s usual DV and AP. For example, an Ares Predator IV (DV 5, AP –1) with APDS (AP –4) would have a modified Damage Code of DV 5, AP –5.

Also note the Ammunition Table, listing both as 'Modifiers'.
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Prime Mover
post Apr 4 2009, 02:56 PM
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Thanks RVD, need hard copy of SR4A for me its easier to reference then a PDF....old timer I know.
Was going by older example given and just wondering if it had wrong math...it did.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 4 2009, 02:59 PM
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crap crap and more crap (on my part, all of it), thats what i get for going by memory (and looking in all the wrong places).

btw, that makes a barret with AV ammo one hell of a can opener (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Draco18s
post Apr 4 2009, 03:34 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 4 2009, 09:48 AM) *
Also note the Ammunition Table, listing both as 'Modifiers'.


See? I thought so.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Apr 4 2009, 04:01 PM
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That what makes Stick&Shock so utterly broken, BTW:

Only the DV gets replaced by the ammunition, leaving the AP -half still a Modifier...
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 4 2009, 03:59 PM) *
btw, that makes a barret with AV ammo one hell of a can opener

The Thunderstruck is still better for bigger cans. Of course, both don't trigger Smart/reactive Armor.
Tanks, beware the Mobile Infantry.
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Draco18s
post Apr 4 2009, 04:13 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 4 2009, 11:01 AM) *
That what makes Stick&Shock so utterly broken, BTW:

Only the DV gets replaced by the ammunition, leaving the AP -half still a Modifier...

The Thunderstruck is still better for bigger cans. Of course, both don't trigger Smart/reactive Armor.
Tanks, beware the Mobile Infantry.


I think SnS is special. It's descripting, IIRC says that it's AP also replaces whatever AP the weapon has.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Apr 4 2009, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 4 2009, 05:13 PM) *
It's descripting, IIRC says that it's AP also replaces whatever AP the weapon has.

Nope, currently, it doesn't:
QUOTE (SR4A, Stick-n-Shock @ p. 324)
This is a special adhesive projectile that sticks to the target and incorporates a battery pack that delivers short bursts of high-voltage pulses. The Stick-n-Shock replaces the weapon's Damage Value with its own.

That's the point - and problem.
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Draco18s
post Apr 4 2009, 04:20 PM
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Huh. I am wrong then. Should be changed, really.

Actually.

I previously wrote down some alternative "rules" for stick and shock such that the "AP -half" only applies to spirits. Against anything else it has only a -1 or -2. The AP -half for spirits is more a reflection of the shock bypassing Immunity to Normal Weapons by delivering an elemental damage effect (subject to armor equal to the spirit's Force).
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Apr 4 2009, 04:23 PM
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The AP -half comes from the fact that it's Eletricity damage and shouldn't be changed due to streamlining.

What should be changed is the fact that the weapons AP remains - and that Stick&Shock can be bought for anything else than Shotguns.
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Degausser
post Apr 4 2009, 08:04 PM
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I have a house ruling that takes care of all of this.

Ammo that is basically the same as the gun, only better, modifies the damage code. So APDS, Explosive, low velocity, and EX-Explosive effects are cumulative.

Ammo that changes the nature of the gun replace. So Gel rounds and Stick-and-Shock (which change the nature of the gun to a Stun weapon) replace the AP. Similar with Flachette ammo (which changes the nature of a gun to a shotgun)also replaces the AP. A little more complicated, but it keeps your players from complaining.
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Tyro
post Apr 4 2009, 08:34 PM
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@Degausser: I like it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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