[X] My Assistant

[Ryu]

Multipost.

[Ryu]

"Mushu" costs 678 karma (assuming unchanged karma-gen), or 774 assuming a change to attribute*5 with everything else unchanged. While karmagen is currently better than BP-gen, free spirits gain noticeably less from the power differential than everyone else. (Technically the cost is 500 karma lower due to race being free, but let´s assume that any GMs answer is "NO!" in that case.)

As for the utility, there are character types that can´t offer nearly unlimited Concealment, Movement, Guard and Magical Guard counterspelling to every team member that is in their "bubble", can´t infiltrate via the astral, and don´t have Immunity to Normal Weapons. Another factor is that you can spend your share of the group income however you want - for the benefit of your friends, for example. ("Metahumans are summoned by locating a specimen that demonstrated the needed skills in the past, and transfering a to-be-negotiated amount of "nuyen" in exchange for the service. Warning! These are no binding contracts.")

[Malicant]

KarmaGen is a completly different critter. With it, you can build "flavor" characters that actually contribute something to the gruop.

[Malicant]

I think it's the way to do if you want any kind of "flavor" character. But with BP Gen you're pretty much hosed in that department.

[DocMorbius]

Ok so I have had a bit of time to look into it, what do you think of the following build?

**as noted this is created with 400BP and 58 Karma** -- I converted 3 BP into 6 Karma as they were left over at the end--

Body 3 (9karma)
Agility 2 (free)
Reaction 2 (Free)
Strength 2(Free)
Charisma 5 (30 BP)
Intuition 3 (9 Karma)
Logic 3 (9 Karma)
Willpower 5 (30 BP)
Force 6 (40 BP)
Magic 6 (free due to force)
Edge 5 (30BP)

Assensing 3 (12BP) + Spec in Spells (2Karma)
Spellcasting 4 (16BP)
Counterspelling 6 (24BP) + spec in Combat spells (2Karma)

Initiation lvl 1 metamagic Shielding (13 Karma)
Initiation lvl 2 metamagic absorbtion* (16 Karma)

Spell - Stun Bolt (5 Karma)

18pts in knowledge skills (Free)

5 Power points worth of spirit powers (free from edge)

Negative traits (+35BP, probibly Uneducated, vendetta (blood mages) and enemy, bloodmages)

(* Not sure if I have the name right on this one as I dont have the book on me now but it allows you to absorbe the force of the spell you are counterspelling and use each point of force counterspelled to drop the drain on the next cast spell (i.e masivly overcast stun bolt))



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This character is realisticly doable, he is specificaly attuned to our mages weaknesses (she is a specked up summoner who has crap counterspelling) it has 16 to counterspell combat magic and can aborb the enemys attacks, he has 5 edge with whitch to get some decent spirit based cheese (the free spirits version of engulph is bad ass!) he is immune to small arms fire in most cases and can learn new spells by just assensing the spell as its cast, he has 18 free points in knowledge skills and can kill an enemy by just walking up to them whilst holding a frag grenade (which he is immune to, go hardened armour) with a little Karma he can get some basic back up face skills as well.

- oh and there are 7 other characters in the group (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) so force 6 is easy enough -


what do you think of teh build?

[Neraph]

i played a wheelman free sprit once it was fun i had a few spells and modest ill admet tho i was laking in the skill selection but it was fun... i would say if you want to play a free spirit then play one but you wont be an uber mage then agian i dont think thats what you wanted your supporting th party's mage right? as for stats just go for making your self unbalanced or way specialised like force 4(you start at 2 anyway and all your stats at that) then your drain and will power stats at 4 so thats only 60 bp for those 3 stats then sprinkle anouther 100 for your other 6 stats and youll be around human "typical" then on to skills (thats 410 so maybe alittle lower on phiscial stats 2s for str and bod is fine) take some big neg traits like alergy according to the tradition that created you (like holy water or wisconsin cheese) and ignorance for weapons like guns and or matrix use alittle cheesy but it gets you points then buy a few spells and buy skills with your karma

The attribute maximum for a free spirit is equal to their force. So a force 4 spirit's racial maximum for stats is 4. So getting two stats at 4 on a force 4 spirit costs 90 BP total... Force 2 to 4 = 20, Attribute 2 to 4 = 35 (10 for one increase, 25 to cap.) and you can only have one such attribute maxed out.

EDIT: I've found to be especially useful for Spirits are these:
Lightning Reflexes
Lucky
Shapechange /OR/ (If GM allows, we can argue this point at-length) (Human/Troll/Ork/Elf/Dwarf) Form

[Maelstrome]

you know what. ill probably regret this but im going to post mine. if anybody sees any problems with it, tell me so it can be fixed. i made this character with the gm over my shoulder but no telling what could have fallen through the cracks at 3 am.

Schwartzvald
free spirit
radiation toxic

body 4
agility 4
reaction4
strength4
intuition4
logic5
charisma4
willpower5
edge 6

force 6

qualities
negative
signature 10
distinctive style 25
positive
quick healing +2 to heal
focused concentration +2 agaisnt drain.

willpower+logic=drain

skills
agility
exotic weapon polearms4(specialised scythe)
blades4
unarmed combat4
infiltration 4
exoctic ranged weapon elemental attack 4
reaction
dodge 4

intuition
perception 4
assensing 4
shadowing 4
tatooing 4

logic
armorer 4

magic
spellcasting 5
counter spelling 5
astral combat 4
ritual spellcasting 4
arcana 4
enchanting 4

charisma
con4
etiquette4
negotition 4


knowledge
magic theory 4
magitech engineering4
philosophy 4
poetry 3

language
latin 4
sperethiel 4
cityspeak n
japanese 4

spells
stunbolt f/2-1
manabolt f/2
manipulate metal f/2 +2
acid stream f/2 +3
toxic wave f/2 +5
shatter shield f/2 -3
power bolt f/2 +3
powerball f/2 +1
lightning bolt f/2 +3
heal dv-2

spirit powers
influence 2 charisma+force against willpower
guard .5 prevent accidents
elemental attack radiation 3 bypasses armor dv 6
pschokenisis .5 equal to magic+willpower test


contact
street mage 6/6
magic researcher 3/3
talismonger 3/3
Laughlin Free Spirit 6/6

[suppenhuhn]

Your build is nice - I would suggest to forego Aura Masking and initiate for the masking metamagic ingame. Concealment would be a good replacement, as possession comes with a physical vessel.

Thanks for the kind words.
The reason i went for aura masking is that it allows the spirit to pass as a mundane when possessing someone (well when he raises his edge that is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ) With the metamagic i'd need to be a lvl 6 initiate to accomplish that which is quite a big karma investment.
Concealment is certainly a great power but actually I want to be seen so when possessing Joe the watchman I look like him in the 'real' world as well as on the astral.
The moment noone sees me in real my aura is suspicious, that's what this is all about.

Oh and honestly I think that this is a character you can play and be useful to a group, but reading some comments here apparently YMMV.

[suppenhuhn]

if anybody sees any problems with it, tell me so it can be fixed.

Er you take one of the most expensive 'metatypes' and create it with the most retarded (albeit the official) version of karmagen which let's you have it for free and ask where the problem is? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
Are there things your GM actually doesn't allow?

[Maelstrome]

Er you take one of the most expensive 'metatypes' and create it with the most retarded (albeit the official) version of karmagen which let's you have it for free and ask where the problem is? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
Are there things your GM actually doesn't allow?

my gm actually told me to use karmagen for my free spirit. he is pretty lax about allowing things. its how i was when i was the main gm for the group. i guess he picked it up from me and the others. if its in the books or complies with the rules he allows it. thats how i do it, that how he does it, and thats how my other gm friends do it. and its work out so far.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

KarmaGen is a completly different critter. With it, you can build "flavor" characters that actually contribute something to the gruop.

And that is one of the reasons that I like it, for any number of concepts...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

my gm actually told me to use karmagen for my free spirit. he is pretty lax about allowing things. its how i was when i was the main gm for the group. i guess he picked it up from me and the others. if its in the books or complies with the rules he allows it. thats how i do it, that how he does it, and thats how my other gm friends do it. and its work out so far.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that in the least... Lighten up Suppenhuhn...

[Ryu]

Body 3 (9karma)
Agility 2 (free)
Reaction 2 (Free)
Strength 2(Free)
Charisma 5 (30 BP)
Intuition 3 (9 Karma)
Logic 3 (9 Karma)
Willpower 5 (30 BP)
Force 6 (40 BP)
Magic 6 (free due to force)
Edge 5 (30BP)

Assensing 3 (12BP) + Spec in Spells (2Karma)
Spellcasting 4 (16BP)
Counterspelling 6 (24BP) + spec in Combat spells (2Karma)

Initiation lvl 1 metamagic Shielding (13 Karma)
Initiation lvl 2 metamagic absorbtion* (16 Karma)

Spell - Stun Bolt (5 Karma)

18pts in knowledge skills (Free)

5 Power points worth of spirit powers (free from edge)

Negative traits (+35BP, probibly Uneducated, vendetta (blood mages) and enemy, bloodmages)

what do you think of teh build?

Force is 55 BP, as you are buying that last point of it. Going for Force 5 / Edge & Willpower 4 is much cheaper. I would add a few spells (with BP), and avoid dealing with bloodmages on a regular basis. Those are ikky. Some suggestions: Magic Fingers, Levitate, Foreboding.

What do you intent to do with the powers? Engulf is nice. Natural Weapon is great, but requires secondary investments in Agility and Skill.

[suppenhuhn]

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that in the least... Lighten up Suppenhuhn...

So you don't think a whopping 62% Buildpoint freebie might be a bit problematic for team balance?
Why do 'normal' metahumans have to pay 30 karma to be a magician when they just as well could be a spirit and have it for free plus loads of other goodies?
Flavour characters are all fine and good but maybe playing Odin the god of thunder is not appropriate for a normal powered campaign and thus such things have high costs attached to them so they only are worthwhile in high powered games with more points for chargen.

[darthmord]

So you don't think a whopping 62% Buildpoint freebie might be a bit problematic for team balance?
Why do 'normal' metahumans have to pay 30 karma to be a magician when they just as well could be a spirit and have it for free plus loads of other goodies?
Flavour characters are all fine and good but maybe playing Odin the god of thunder is not appropriate for a normal powered campaign and thus such things have high costs attached to them so they only are worthwhile in high powered games with more points for chargen.

You need to get your rules straight. There are benefits to being a metahuman mage that a free spirit CANNOT have. Not to mention other ways to die as a Free Spirit that as a metahuman, do NOTHING to you.

Also, if you were to build a free spirit under BPs, they have to pay a significant chunk of BP (250 iirc) for their package of benefits. The mage package is much cheaper and by far, more cost effective.

Besides, if one character is using karmagen, then all characters in the group should be using karmagen.

Methinks you are tilting at windmills.

[suppenhuhn]

You need to get your rules straight. There are benefits to being a metahuman mage that a free spirit CANNOT have.

You mean things like summoning powerful spirits for loads of drain as opposed to being a powerful spirit all the time?

Not to mention other ways to die as a Free Spirit that as a metahuman, do NOTHING to you.

Which are?

Also, if you were to build a free spirit under BPs, they have to pay a significant chunk of BP (250 iirc) for their package of benefits. The mage package is much cheaper and by far, more cost effective.

I was talking about Karmagen.

Besides, if one character is using karmagen, then all characters in the group should be using karmagen.

Which doesn't give nearly the same benefit to normal builds as it does to munchkin flavour chars.

Methinks you are tilting at windmills.

Among the blind the one-eyed is king. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Neraph]

Which are?

Destroying a Spirit Formula. People don't have Spirit Formulae.

[The Mack]

Destroying a Spirit Formula. People don't have Spirit Formulae.

You don't need a Spirit Formula to put a bullet through their heads.

[suppenhuhn]

Destroying a Spirit Formula. People don't have Spirit Formulae.

That disrupts a spirit as does about anything that kills a metahuman. whoopdeedoo

In fact the one and only way to kill a spirit is to venture to his home metaplane and destroy it there and even getting the formula you need to begin with is more work then killing a team of runners and the moment someone has my formula i know that and i know exactly where it is.

[Mäx]

So you don't think a whopping 62% Buildpoint freebie might be a bit problematic for team balance?

It's not a competative game, so i don't understand this need for exact team balance.
And it's only that hight freebie, becouse the cost of the free spirits is so retardidly hight in BP-chargen.

[suppenhuhn]

It's not a competative game, so i don't understand this need for exact team balance.

It gets problematic when other character start to become redundant or when some are so powerful that challenging adversaries for them are a death warrant for the rest of the team.

And it's only that hight freebie, becouse the cost of the free spirits is so retardidly hight in BP-chargen.

The BP cost isn't that much off when you consider what a spirit is capable of simply by being a spirit.
With 400 BP you can easily make it a valuable team member.

[The Mack]

It's not a competative game, so i don't understand this need for exact team balance.

Let's say you have 6 players.

They each start with 750 Karma.


But you're not concerned with "exact team balance", so you choose one of them and grant them an extra 450 karma.


So then, 5 of them have 750 karma builds and 1 of them has a 1200 karmabuild.

Does that look right to you? Do you think the other players will mind?



That's basically what you're doing when you let someone play a Free Spirit for zero cost in karmagen.

Except instead of karma you've given them what are effectively super powers, including teleportation, as well as a modecum of immortality.

[Malicant]

It's not a competative game, so i don't understand this need for exact team balance.

I wish more people would see it that way. This is Shadowrun. Balance is an illusion.

[Mäx]

Let's say you have 6 players.

They each start with 750 Karma.


But you're not concerned with "exact team balance", so you choose one of them and grant them an extra 450 karma.


So then, 5 of them have 750 karma builds and 1 of them has a 1200 karmabuild.

Does that look right to you? Do you think the other players will mind?

Execp the amount of starting karma has allmost nothing to do fit characters being "balanced" with each other.
the one with extra 450 karma might be the most powerful of the bunch or she might be the weakest.
Unless all of those six players are über min/maxers or non min/maxers there is gonna be big differensies in power when comparing those 750 karma character with each other.

[darthmord]

I've seen 400 BP character builds here on the forums that are worlds beyond anything I would make with the same 400 BPs. Yet both can quite peacefully co-exist in the same campaign.

I still think you are tilting at windmills.