[X] My Assistant

[paws2sky]

An update for the Kingdom of Hawai'i would be choice.

-paws

[Zenfar]

...everything else is a $3 mini-PDF supplement (new weapons, new factions, new player classes, etc).

In my land of unicorns and puppies I'd love to see a Shadowrun 10 page mini-PDF released every other month and have it cover... something in the Shadowrun world. It wouldn't have to be much. Say the island of Sri Lanka, a space station, or a few new weapons or vehicles. Or critters or sample NPCs. Or rules for starting a rock band a la Shadowbeat.

This would be a very cool product especialy if it had high production values. When tablet PCs become cheap and common the PDF will be all you ever need or want.

[Lordmalachdrim]

This would be a very cool product especialy if it had high production values. When tablet PCs become cheap and common the PDF will be all you ever need or want.

I'll disagree with you there, I love the smell and feel of a real book.

[deek]

Give it another 20 years...paper publishing is dying...

[paws2sky]

What people are saying and what they're doing are two different things.

I worked in a print shop at a fairly large medical company for years. You heard a lot about how the company was going green, blah blah blah, but man... we printed tons of documents every year. Literally. Most were distributed in our building. (Though a few were sent off-site.) We printed dozens of 500+ page manuals every month.

The print industry might be taking a beating right now, but that's mostly because more people are printing their shit in-house. Why pay a 100%+ markup to a printer when you can lease a high volume color or black and white printer for a fraction of the cost?

-paws

PS I too love the smell of a real book.

[Wesley Street]

I work for a mid-sized, publicly traded technology company. As a money-saving measure I suggested our parent corporation quit publishing physical documents. Now we've gone the route of electronic newsletters and all of our product support documentation is downloaded through our websites and intranet. We do get a handful of customers who ask us to send them a physical document. We suggest they take the PDF to Kinko's. If we didn't do it this way we'd have to print up a new batch of expensive docs every time any upgrade was made (which is weekly).

I love real books too but, in my head, there's a difference between an RPG book (which is a glorified instruction manual with higher production values) and a "book"-book. You won't see me with my copy of Street Magic on my lap, a cup of tea in my hand, a pipe stem in my mouth and mumbling "hmm, I see" to myself. I get in, get what I need and get out. If I had some sort of palm device with all of my manuals and guidebooks in one place that I could carry about with me I'd be a happy camper.

I also hate tea.

[Fuchs]

With a big 24' widescreen I can read PDFs as well as a book, and they are easier to use when preparing a session - and much more portable.

[paws2sky]

I work for a mid-sized, publicly traded technology company. As a money-saving measure I suggested our parent corporation quit publishing physical documents. Now we've gone the route of electronic newsletters and all of our product support documentation is downloaded through our websites and intranet. We do get a handful of customers who ask us to send them a physical document. We suggest they take the PDF to Kinko's. If we didn't do it this way we'd have to print up a new batch of expensive docs every time any upgrade was made (which is weekly).

Good to hear that some companies have the backbone and good sense to commit to this sort of thing.

You won't see me with my copy of Street Magic on my lap, a cup of tea in my hand, a pipe stem in my mouth and mumbling "hmm, I see" to myself.

I know what your problem is, you forgot your smoking jacket and high back chair! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

I also hate tea.

I hate coffee, personally.

-paws

[Zenfar]

We will see thin tablet PCs for under $400 that have a screen that does digital ink, lcd, and multi-touch. Maybe by the summer but defiantly by next year. They will be based on the NVidia Ion platform and be able to play video at 720p or better. They will also work for gaming and other multimedia applications. You either adapt to the future or you fade away...

[the_dunner]

in the case of CGL or Crafty Games, which are very small shops, there are only so many editors to go around.

In fairness, when I started as Shadowrun Ebook Developer, I wasn't working on developing any other Shadowrun projects. So, there was another "editor" added. That's since changed, so I'm splitting my time between PDFs and print work.

In my land of unicorns and puppies I'd love to see a Shadowrun 10 page mini-PDF released every other month and have it cover... something in the Shadowrun world. It wouldn't have to be much. Say the island of Sri Lanka, a space station, or a few new weapons or vehicles. Or critters or sample NPCs. Or rules for starting a rock band a la Shadowbeat.

So, currently, there are four Shadowrun PDF exclusives available.

The first was Digital Grimoire, at 18 pages. Almost all of the content was rules.
The second was Bad Moon Rising, at 37 pages. This one's a scenario.
The third was The Rotten Apple: Manhattan, at 30 pages. This is entirely game world information, without game mechanics.
The fourth is SRM3-00: Everyone's your Friend, at 27 pages. This one is a scenario, and it's free.

There are several more projects that are in progress, including monthly Shadowrun Missions scenarios (at $3.95 each), among other things. But, they're all well over the 10 page size that you explicitly mentioned. (Generally, I target 20-40 pages when developing a PDF-exclusive.)

However, this begs the question -- do you think we're not charging enough? At 20 pages and the $3.95 price point, it's about 20 cents per page. I'll be blunt and admit that our margins on these are extremely thin. I'd love to charge more, but I don't think the market will bear it. (I acknowledge that the production costs for a PDF are lower than print projects, but the sales numbers on PDFs are in now way comparable to print releases.)

Would you rather see smaller PDFs at the same price point, or would you rather continue to see 20-ish page products at a higher price? (Note: We won't necessarily be making either change in the short term. I'm just asking for an opinion.)

If I had some sort of palm device with all of my manuals and guidebooks in one place that I could carry about with me I'd be a happy camper.

Consider buying a netbook (c. $250). I have a 8.9" screen netbook that goes everywhere with me. It's got 120GB of storage, which is dramatically more than is required to carry a complete Shadowrun PDF library along with a broad range of reference materials. Adobe Acrobat starts in less than 3 seconds. It takes a couple seconds more to load up a PDF. If I turn the image sideways and go to full screen mode (built in function of Acrobat), I can hold the netbook like a book, and use my right hand on the pageup/pagedown keys to flip through the book. At 1024x600 on a 8.9" screen, I find the gaming books extremely readable. Netbooks are also now available with 10" or 12" screens, typically with the same screen resolution. I find the 12" ones unwieldy for holding like a book, but if I could find a good deal on a 10" screen, I'd give it some serious consideration.

[Wesley Street]

In fairness, when I started as Shadowrun Ebook Developer, I wasn't working on developing any other Shadowrun projects. So, there was another "editor" added. That's since changed, so I'm splitting my time between PDFs and print work.

Definitely understood.

I also think there's a serious misconception among many gamers about the creative studios behind RPG products. Many gamers, subconsciously or not, equate RPGs with the TSR/WotC company model which was/is the 800lb. gorilla of the industry. That kind of staff power allows for rapid-fire product release which isn't a realistic expectation for a smaller studio, but the 1980s/'90s mentality of "throw everything at the wall until something sticks" hasn't faded yet. I remember the end of the TSR days when it seemed that a new campaign setting was being released bi-monthly and without a concern for quality, need or desire. Some were hits but most weren't. In fact I think they're still doing this, though the packaging is prettier. I can't imagine how a small studio could flood a market with mediocre product and expect to remain afloat.

This is also true of any business. Volume home builders can crank out a neighborhood-sized vinyl village whereas a spec and custom home builder can only realistically build a handful of homes a year. And you can always see the difference in quality.

So, currently, there are four Shadowrun PDF exclusives available.

The first was Digital Grimoire, at 18 pages. Almost all of the content was rules.
The second was Bad Moon Rising, at 37 pages. This one's a scenario.
The third was The Rotten Apple: Manhattan, at 30 pages. This is entirely game world information, without game mechanics.
The fourth is SRM3-00: Everyone's your Friend, at 27 pages. This one is a scenario, and it's free.

There are several more projects that are in progress, including monthly Shadowrun Missions scenarios (at $3.95 each), among other things. But, they're all well over the 10 page size that you explicitly mentioned. (Generally, I target 20-40 pages when developing a PDF-exclusive.)

However, this begs the question -- do you think we're not charging enough? At 20 pages and the $3.95 price point, it's about 20 cents per page. I'll be blunt and admit that our margins on these are extremely thin. I'd love to charge more, but I don't think the market will bear it. (I acknowledge that the production costs for a PDF are lower than print projects, but the sales numbers on PDFs are in now way comparable to print releases.)

Would you rather see smaller PDFs at the same price point, or would you rather continue to see 20-ish page products at a higher price? (Note: We won't necessarily be making either change in the short term. I'm just asking for an opinion.)

I think the formula is little more complicated than determining price by the number of pages. For example, Crafty's PDF-exclusive Spycraft 2.0 releases are all around $4 and they're all around the 5-8 page mark, not including legalese or covers. I think they make up the difference by releasing often and this keeps the players coming back. My opinion would be to release more, shorter PDFs on a regular basis than release fewer, longer ones on a semi-regular basis. For example, Digital Grimoire could have been split into three shorter PDFs for $4 each: perhaps 6 pages of new traditions, 6 pages of new spells, 6 pages on spirit or other rules. Regularly released, very short PDFs would also be an opportunity to break from the metaplot and explore what else is going on in the SR Universe without having to devoting the time to developing a new storyline.

The downside of this model is that CGL would need to be releasing on a very predictable, very regular basis. But it would be like comic book fans who go the shop every Wednesday. If the second Thursday of the month was "New Shadowrun PDF Release Day" I think it would generate serious buzz and also be something unique and trend setting.

20-40 page PDF-exclusives are fine and the prices are definitely reasonable but should be the exception, not the rule for PDF-exclusives. But that's just my opinion and I'm sure there are factors that I'm not aware of.

Consider buying a netbook (c. $250). I have a 8.9" screen netbook that goes everywhere with me. It's got 120GB of storage, which is dramatically more than is required to carry a complete Shadowrun PDF library along with a broad range of reference materials. Adobe Acrobat starts in less than 3 seconds. It takes a couple seconds more to load up a PDF. If I turn the image sideways and go to full screen mode (built in function of Acrobat), I can hold the netbook like a book, and use my right hand on the pageup/pagedown keys to flip through the book. At 1024x600 on a 8.9" screen, I find the gaming books extremely readable. Netbooks are also now available with 10" or 12" screens, typically with the same screen resolution. I find the 12" ones unwieldy for holding like a book, but if I could find a good deal on a 10" screen, I'd give it some serious consideration.

Now there is something I could put on the wedding registry.

[Lordmalachdrim]

Please keep PDF releases to a minimum. I'm probably in the minority here but they're a pain to read, and a pain at the game table. You either have to pay a second time to print out what you bought (either at a kino's or on your own printer) or use it on a laptop and I've found having laptops (or other computers) at the table a real pain in the but because gamers seem to focus on everything but the game when they have access to their files/internet and it kills the flow of the game.

Another problem I have with them is files are so much easier to lose (delete, corrupt, and so on) then any book I've ever had. I've got game books from 88 that are sill in good shape and see regular use.



Again this is just my opinion and from what I've read I seem to be in the minority, but I thought I'd just throw my thoughts out there.

[deek]

You (Lordmalachdrim) are probably in the minority on DSF, but I feel pretty sure your thoughts make up the majority of roleplayers in general. Frankly, people in general. Most don't want to curl up to a good PDF...yet many read way more text on screen than they realize. Anyways...

I'd be interested in 10-15 pages worth of exclusive material at the $3.95 price point. Much like Wesley said, 10-15 pages of new spells, traditions, etc for Grimoire would have been well worth it. Adding new vehicles, weapons, gear...I mean, really, PDFs would be a great way to add...I'd probably be less likely to buy fluff, though.

A 30-40 page scenario? I'd say $6.95 would be more than fair. And those that would be interested in those types of PDFs would probably eat that up...

[Wesley Street]

I just want to reiterate that pro-PDF folk are not anti-print. I simply see the PDF as an excellent format to get more material out there more quickly. And even act as a testing ground for popularity. The model I'm thinking of is the monthly comic vs. the trade paperback. The popular stuff gets collected into bound print editions, the stuff that doesn't make the cut in terms of fan recognition... well... it's not disregarded but it isn't collected either. Either way it would be a win-win for everyone.

Here's an idea... Remember those SOTA books for 3rd Edition? What if each chapter had been an individual PDF that was then collected into the final printed book? It's almost more of a magazine or Farmer's Almanac approach where broad topics and ideas are collected into one volume without worrying about a "theme" to tie them together.

[hobgoblin]

Most don't want to curl up to a good PDF...yet many read way more text on screen than they realize.

i suspect the problem there is the lack of a light, portable reading device that can show a whole page at a time.

most probably have the mental image of reading pdfs (specifically the 2+ column layout used in just about any rpg book) by having to scroll up and down as they cant fit the whole page on screen.

heh, i just did a test with a similar sized pdf on my eeepc 900, and its 8.9" screen was not large enough to handle the pages when rotated sideways, without doing some scaling (making the text close to unreadable).

however i guess a 10-11" screen should be able to handle a SR pdf...

so maybe these forthcoming netbooks with foldable screen (holding a eeepc as it was a book was somewhat troublesome) within that screen size could handle work as a rpg pdf reader...

meh, scratch that, i should have measured one of my physical books. 13-14" would do, if standing on end...

[the_dunner]

heh, i just did a test with a similar sized pdf on my eeepc 900, and its 8.9" screen was not large enough to handle the pages when rotated sideways, without doing some scaling (making the text close to unreadable).

Did you put your PDF reader into full screen mode first? If so, then we have different standards for readability. I find the SR PDFs very readable in doing that on identical hardware.

[hobgoblin]

Did you put your PDF reader into full screen mode first? If so, then we have different standards for readability. I find the SR PDFs very readable in doing that on identical hardware.

full screen yes, but that gave me a slight border (using linux software so i guess i could play around a bit).

after that i tried presentation mode to fit the whole page on screen in one go. that gave me a black border at top and bottom and the text was just barely readable.

[Necro Sanct]

While I have not always been the biggest fan of landscape layouts, WoTC does the method decently with their pdf versions of Dragon and Dungeon. The issue from March for instance had 5 main articles (19, 11, 10, 8, and 9 pages each) along with 21 pages for the monthly column stuff. The main thing with this is that anything in the pdf is canon material if you want to include it in your game because it is released by WoTC. Shadowrun on the other hand does not have such an option and should not be expected to have something of that scope. While a product such as those two are major pieces of work from WoTC I see no extreme reason that at least 1 mini-pdf a month from Catalyst which covers a specific aspect of the game could not be made available. The Shadowrun, Fourth Edition Compatability list on the website has more than a handful of entries on there that could be reimagined or updated to give players possibly years of one off monthly mini-pdf releases. Fan-made material could be done but at the end of the day it is just that, fan-made material which in most cases goes the way of the dodo even if it is a worthy non-canon edition.

One of my most sore points while I have the website in mind is how it seems to be an afterthought, or perhaps it just falls on the side of being a really bad site overall with little direction in the support department. At times the site seems like nothing more than a product purchasing/convention/chat blog as opposed to a site dedicated to a game worthy of so much more. The whole thing could be set up better to allow for current edition entries on the site directly in edition to monthly pdf releases as suggested above. Nowadays web presence can go a long way in the first impression department or the willingness to actively visit. I find it to be almost a chore to visit the site at all, when I really wish there was a reason to do so even at least monthly.

[the_dunner]

The downside of this model is that CGL would need to be releasing on a very predictable, very regular basis. But it would be like comic book fans who go the shop every Wednesday. If the second Thursday of the month was "New Shadowrun PDF Release Day" I think it would generate serious buzz and also be something unique and trend setting.

We're working on it. We're not there yet, but we hope to be.

I'd be interested in 10-15 pages worth of exclusive material at the $3.95 price point.

You realize that's exactly what Digital Grimoire is, right? We do have plans for more material in this same vein, though plans are not the same thing as PDFs ready for release. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

after that i tried presentation mode to fit the whole page on screen in one go. that gave me a black border at top and bottom and the text was just barely readable.

I'm ashamed to admit it, but my Netbook runs Windows XP. It sounds like we're describing the same phenomenon -- there's a border at the top and bottom, as the 1024 x 600 pixel ratio of the screen is not the same as the ratio of 8.5 x 11 paper. Personally, I find the materials quite readable at this resolution. It doesn't surprise me to see others disagree with me on that matter.

I see no extreme reason that at least 1 mini-pdf a month from Catalyst which covers a specific aspect of the game could not be made available.

At the moment, 1 a month, in addition to Shadowrun Missions, is not realistic for us -- there are a whole lot of reasons for that. However, we hope to continue a regular schedule of PDF releases that gradually ramps up.

[Necro Sanct]

At the moment, 1 a month, in addition to Shadowrun Missions, is not realistic for us -- there are a whole lot of reasons for that. However, we hope to continue a regular schedule of PDF releases that gradually ramps up.

Does that mean that more staff priority is focused on Eclipse Phase, Leviathans, Paparazzi *shivers* or Ooze the Cook as opposed to the older IP systems?

Any of the following responses will answer the question for me:
None (possibly see also, A truthful response confirming it.)
A vague response. (possibly see also, A truthful response denying it.)
A truthful response denying it. (possibly see also, A vague response, unless it really is the truth.)
A truthful response confirming it. (possibly see here)

[the_dunner]

Does that mean that more staff priority is focused on Eclipse Phase, Leviathans, Paparazzi *shivers* or Ooze the Cook as opposed to the older IP systems?

No. Actually, it means that the staff is focused on a rather ambitious hard copy Shadowrun release schedule at the moment. I've no involvement in any of CGL's other game lines.

[Necro Sanct]

No. Actually, it means that the staff is focused on a rather ambitious hard copy Shadowrun release schedule at the moment. I've no involvement in any of CGL's other game lines.

Thanks that is a very welcome response. Now to just sort out a way to fenagle the mysterious top secret release schedule out of you *chuckles*.

[Freejack]

From a desktop standpoint, I'm using a 17" screen I bought for $99 to read PDFs. It's rotated 90* so a PDF is very easy to read. I have a 19" HP monitor at work that I have rotated 90* as well. Drives my co-workers and people who stop by nuts. "What's wrong with you... Oh! It's sideways." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Carl

[DireRadiant]

I want a kindle edition of SR4A core rule books.

[ravensmuse]

I agree with Dire. Holy shit would that be useful. Small, compact, easily browsed around, I'd love it.

Heck, gimme that and DnD 4e on Kindle and I'm set for anything. Maybe add a dice roller app and I'm done.