Nephilim, Bringing Apocrypha into Shadowrun Options

[Chrysalis]

Nephilim are beings who appear in the Hebrew Bible, specifically in the Book of Genesis, and are also mentioned in other Biblical texts and in some non-canonical Jewish writings. Genesis Chapter 6, verses 1 through 4 describe the origin of the Nephilim:

"Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown."

A while ago when I was thinking of Behind the Shadows, the game I am running on the forums here, I thought of a dead ended story arc concept, which would be the use of several divine hosts and three celestial choirs. The idea was that Gabriel and Michael with the departure of God from Heaven end up squabbling about the role of man. Each believe that they have a role in the cryptic instructions left by God.

Slowly there is a division and a battle and Heaven reaches closer to man. Equally Hell takes on the role of the Sixth World. The manifestation of elves, dwarves, orcs, and trolls are but the manifestation of Hell in the Sixth World. Some of the fallen angels take on the roles of dragons.

It is a definitely a darker and grittier Shadowrun. There is the underlying question is the Sixth World actually hell and that those who live in it are but manifestations of the damned.

The Nephilim would be the silent fourth front to this war. Wanting to being about a different kind of hell, one where they had mastery of men as they did of old. They lie in the shadows and wait, waiting for the apocalypse which is inexorably nearing.

It would be a way to sort of bring in concepts from In Nomine into the game.

[Wesley Street]

Check out Douglas Rushkoff's Testament. You may find it interesting.

[Ancient History]

While I'm all for obscure occultism of all stripes, the main problem with including Nephilim is that it explicitly confirms one or more belief systems as "real" or "true" - whereas in SR all belief systems could be seen as implicitly correct (or incorrect, if you prefer) in that all are equally valid in terms of the manipulation of magic and none have unique manifestations of their beliefs.

Well, except for insect spirits. (All hail the Original Insect!)

[Chrysalis]

What's wrong with confirming one set of belief systems as "true"? I am not writing Shadowrun; I am simply choosing to think about what kind of world would it be if the mystical side of the world was built in accordance to the apocrypha removed on the behest of the Council of Mycenae.

The problem of having other religions (actually the Nephilim neatly saddle the divides from Judaism to Islam), is not of their validity (I am all for the religions), but it is a question of genre and storytelling.

The inspiration for the original post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prophecy

[Ancient History]

While The Prophecy is a terrific movie, and nephilim are based on actual Christian theology, mythology, and apocrypha, they're not very appropriate to Shadowrun, any more than the sin eaters presented in The Order or the holy shotgun of Constantine would be. Cool on their own, but not appropos for most SR games unless you're going for an explicitly biblical twist. Otherwise we end up with another Black Madonna, SR's own version of The Da Vinci Code (albeit with a much better plot).

[Chrysalis]

What's Black Madonna?

[pbangarth]

While I'm all for obscure occultism of all stripes, the main problem with including Nephilim is that it explicitly confirms one or more belief systems as "real" or "true" - whereas in SR all belief systems could be seen as implicitly correct (or incorrect, if you prefer) in that all are equally valid in terms of the manipulation of magic and none have unique manifestations of their beliefs.

Well, except for insect spirits. (All hail the Original Insect!)

Except these particular manifestations of beliefs could be considered to be just that, mana given form by the beliefs of millions and shaped by the subconscious archetypes maintained by the believers.

[Ancient History]

Which is fine, if all beliefs manifest equally. If you want nephilim to start showing up alongside afrits, the Garuda bird, and the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man, knock yourself out. Preferential treatment for one religion over another is counter to how SR works right now (let's avoid the whole "proof of a religion ruins belief in a religion" schtick, not in the mood).

[Stahlseele]

What's Black Madonna?

A Novel, more or less the Shadowrun Version of the Da Vinci Code.
Before the Da Vinci Code got big.

[Ancient History]

1982: Holy Blood, Holy Grail
1996: Black Madonna
2003: The Da Vinci Code

Please note, both books essentially stole the core conceit of their respective plots from Holy Blood, Holy Grail. The difference is that Black Madonna is at least well-written and entertaining, if still over-the-top-insane, while Dan Brown makes my brain want to chew its way out of my skull.

[Stahlseele]

i liked it somehow . . some funny scenes in there ^^

[Chrysalis]

I found the Da Vinci Code entertaining as airport novels go.

While I have read Holy Blood, Holy Grail which is an amusing piece of pseudohistorical fiction based on the forged Dossiers Secrets d'Henri Lobineau. I still liked Eco's Foucault's Pendulum more.

[The Mack]

Preferential treatment for one religion over another is counter to how SR works right now (let's avoid the whole "proof of a religion ruins belief in a religion" schtick, not in the mood).

I agree.

Which is why I think a name other than "Shedim" should have been chosen.

[nezumi]

Nephilim are oftentimes described as giants (that, or their half-human offspring are). Perhaps coincidentally, several other major religions, including the Norse religion, describes giants wandering the land during pre-history. If you feel AH's comments are valid (and they may or may not be, based on how much you like the canon books and flavor), it is nearly trivial to convert your nephilim to a more broad-base 'superhuman giants/angel creatures' and apply to several religions simultaneously.

[Matsci]

I agree.

Which is why I think a name other than "Shedim" should have been chosen.

I prefere the term "Frakking Zombie Jellyfish"

[Demonseed Elite]

Granted, the Shedim don't call themselves Shedim. They probably don't even respond to that name. It's just the term the Sixth World applied to them.

[Method]

While I think AH's comments are reasonable in the context of maintaining the SR product line, I think this would be an interesting theme for a house game, especially if the PCs were members of a religous order or some such.

[pbangarth]

I agree.

Which is why I think a name other than "Shedim" should have been chosen.

Granted, the Shedim don't call themselves Shedim. They probably don't even respond to that name. It's just the term the Sixth World applied to them.

Weeelllllll..... it's the term applied by SR writers to entities in the Sixth World, as if it had been applied by Sixth World citizens to whom the word Shedim was especially meaningful, very much in the fashion Ancient History suggests is inappropriate for SR writers to apply terms. Hence The Mack's retort.

[Ancient History]

There is a difference. People call them shedim, but very few actually consider them the shedim of Jewish myth. In Shadowrun, many critters and species are called by names drawn from old mythology (which is just a polite term for somebody else's religion), but which are not literally intended to be those creatures of myth. Calling a critter an elf is a recognition of its superficial similarity to the popular conception of what is an elf, which has changed considerably over time. Calling a critter a vampire because it appears to die and then has to drink blood to survive doesn't mean that the critter takes on all the mythical attributes of the vampire (if that were even possible), and its (general) lack of reaction to holy symbols and cultural superstitions reinforces the concept that no one culture is absolutely correct, while at the same time suggesting that the ancient myths and legends of those cultures may be relevant today and worthy of scrutiny for the factual information they do contain.

So yes, it's one thing to have very tall metahumans and call them nephilim, and something else again for them to actually be the nephilim of myth. Shadowrun works well with the former, SR even works well for the latter if it is a pocket belief held by a subset of the population who the rest of the world believes to be crazy religious fanatics.

[Stahlseele]

Wonder if there is a reason for Nephilim and Nifflheim looking/sounding so similar to each other O.o

[Sticks]

I always saw the Nephelim (in the SR Universe) as leftover legends from Earthdawn myself, allegorical examples of Dragonkin and their descendants

[Malicant]

Wonder if there is a reason for Nephilim and Nifflheim looking/sounding so similar to each other O.o

Coincidence.

[Stahlseele]

yeeaah . . suuree . .

[Malicant]

Are you serious?

[Stahlseele]

If you do not see one conspiracy hidden beneath, inside, behind and everywhere else concerning other conspiracies, you are doing it wrong <.<