Custom magical traditions, How common are they, and what are some of the more interesting ones? Options

[Tanegar]

How often, in your experience, do Shadowrun players create their own magical traditions? What are the more interesting ones you've seen?

I had an idea the other day for a magical tradition based on ancient Egyptian mythology. This is my first stab at creating a tradition; constructive criticism is welcome.

Ma'at: Egyptian Theurgy
Concept: Magic is a gift from the gods and a sign of their favor. The ma'ati (the title used for a follower of Ma'at; it is both singular and plural) strive always to promote the divine order and justice in the world. For some ma'ati, this means working in the darker places to bring down a corrupt corporate order; others merely try to alleviate as much suffering as possible. Ma'at rituals are based on the religious rites of pharaonic Egypt, and place particular importance on the uttering of names. In Ma'at, to name a thing is to control it; each object, beast and person has a secret true name, knowledge of which grants absolute power over them.
Combat: Air
Detection: Fire
Health: Water
Illusion: Beasts
Manipulation: Man
Drain: Willpower + Charisma

Fascination with the faith of the pharaohs began in the late nineteenth century with the excavation of the first pharaonic tombs in Egypt. It persisted through the end of the Fifth World, most often as a subject of academic study but occasionally in the form of small cults. When the Awakening came, some of these believers discovered that the rites they had painstakingly reconstructed from three-thousand-year-old fragments suddenly had tangible effects in the physical world. They took this to be a sign that their gods had blessed them for their faith, and the tradition of Ma'at (meaning "truth," "justice," or "order") was born.

Ma'at Mentor Spirits (Note: This is by no means an exhaustive list, and is intended only to provide a few samples of the types of mentor spirit a ma'ati might follow. I may add further examples later.)

Ra
The sun god, creator of the world, bringer of light and warmth. Ra holds dominion over the powers of flame and over the physical world. He is caring and nurturing in a fatherly way; ma'ati who follow Ra tend to treat their associates like favored children.
Advantages: +2 dice for conjuring flame spirits; +2 dice for manipulation spells
Disadvantages: As the principal god of Ma'at, Ra cannot abide challenges to his supremacy. A ma'ati follower of Ra must accept any challenge offered him, or suffer -2 dice to all tests for a day thereafter.

Anubis
The jackal-headed god who conveys souls to the afterlife, Anubis is a fearsome and cryptic figure. As the god responsible for weighing the hearts of the dead against the feather of truth, Anubis has an abiding interest in uncovering lies and deception. His addresses to his followers frequently take the form of riddles, often having to do with death and dying. Ma'ati who follow him often seem detached, even distant, and have generally morbid senses of humor.
Advantages: +2 dice for conjuring spirits of man; +2 dice for detection spells
Disadvantages: Ma'ati who follow Anubis acquire some of their mentor's fearsome presence, exuding an aura which other beings find disquieting at best. They suffer -2 dice to all social tests, except when dealing with individuals involved in funerary rites (gravediggers, embalmers, etc.) or who have an unhealthy interest in the morbid and the macabre (Goths, etc.)

Thoth
God of wisdom, knowledge, and all sciences, ibis-headed Thoth is revered by scholars. He is an endlessly patient tutor, and delights in his students' mastery of some new facet of magic. Ma'ati who follow Thoth are often professorial, occasionally even pedantic, in demeanor. They are always well-read and educated, and happy to display their nearly bottomless reserves of knowledge.
Advantages: +2 dice when learning a new spell; +2 dice for detection spells
Disadvantages: Followers of Thoth find it virtually impossible to resist the opportunity to learn something new. When confronted with such an opportunity, regardless of potential danger, the ma'ati must make a composure (Willpower + Charisma) test or drop whatever he may be doing to pursue it.

[ICPiK]

Wow. I like it. I could picture a shaman with the heavy male makeup of the day being pretty creepy.

[Bashfull]

For what it's worth, several of the Egyptian pantheon are covered in the Mentor spirit section in Street Magic. They include Ra and Thoth, and add half a dozen more. Nice work, though.

I'm thinking of creating a new mentor spirit for a sea loving character: Sea and Shark don't really fit. Sun and Great Mother are closer, but I'm wondering what people thought Dolphin might entail if I were to make it up.

The character is very carefree, not keen on violence, and loves the thrill of action and extreme sports. He's also a surfer. Dolphin makes sense, but I'm wondering about the numbers.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How often, in your experience, do Shadowrun players create their own magical traditions? What are the more interesting ones you've seen?

I would say it is pretty common in my experience...
I have seen two somewhat interesting ones, however... Geomancy and Necromancy...

They were... Interesting

Sorry that I cannot provide any details though...

[Cardul]

For me, it depends alot on the character. Usually, I go with Hermetic or one of the Street Magic/Digital Grimoire traditions. However, I have a Mystic Adept I have been building who I made a custom tradition because the Character just would not work well with any of the standard traditions..

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

For me, it depends alot on the character. Usually, I go with Hermetic or one of the Street Magic/Digital Grimoire traditions. However, I have a Mystic Adept I have been building who I made a custom tradition because the Character just would not work well with any of the standard traditions..

And that is the absolute BEST reason to create your own custom Tradition...

[The Mack]

I'm thinking of creating a new mentor spirit for a sea loving character: Sea and Shark don't really fit. Sun and Great Mother are closer, but I'm wondering what people thought Dolphin might entail if I were to make it up.

The character is very carefree, not keen on violence, and loves the thrill of action and extreme sports. He's also a surfer. Dolphin makes sense, but I'm wondering about the numbers.

Hmm, maybe +2 dice for Detection and Water Spirits.

And then you could either give a dice pool penalty or force them to make a WILL+CHA test ( 3) for some negative you want to emphasize. For example when they have to be serious, or doing something cruel, basically any limiter that will help you shape how you want the character to play.

[Cardul]

And that is the absolute BEST reason to create your own custom Tradition...

Honestly, I could have shoe-horned the character in Black Magic or Druidry or chaos magic or Hermetics..but..it just did not FIT..The character's beliefs have a very earthy connection to them, because she is a CHangeling with Symbiosis. In fact, that is why Earth Spirits are her SPirit choice for divination: The earth Knows everything, and it connects to the belief that she is more connected to the land then other magicians. Since her Surge kinda made her look demonic(Goring Horns, Striking Skin Pigmentation, Balance Tail, Mood Hair, slow healer, Metagenetic improvement: Willpower), her combat spells are flame based(Her Power Bolt actually looks like flames, and I did a custom version of Armour that adds the Flame Elemental effect to it). So, her combat spirits are Fire, just because to her Fire and Battle are mixed. Words are often the origins of lies, and lies are the source of all illusion, so, her Illusion Spirits are Air. While Man: no creature or element is safe from na's influence. Event hose in pristine areas are influenced by Man simply through the atmospheric effects. Thus, man is the ultimate manipulator, and thus, the Spirits for Manipulation. At the same time, everything is about finding a pattern. Tracing the pattern and leaping to it. Mana Ebbs and flows, and by funneling the magic at those moments most favourable, one uses less of their own reserves, thus, her drain Attribute is Intuition. Her Adept powers are Magical Toughness(Stun) and Improved Reflexes(1). Her starting spells are Powerbolt, Flame Armour(yes, when it manifests, that is exactly what it looks like! Basicly, the armour spell with a Flame elemental effect added), Heal, and Mist.

One could say her tradition put a big emphasis on the idea of magc comes from the land, but the magician still uses that power herself. I see that her beliefs, with a stong emphasis on the whole "The blood of the mage is the blood of the land" could actually be an opening for corruption into blood magic, though I think she would be more likely to spill her own blood then someone elses(reinforcing said connections between the magician and the land).

See what I mean about it not really FITTING anywhere else..

[Heath Robinson]

I'm going to add the same complaints I had for the poster who created the Angelic Choir mentor spirits.

There's no reason you couldn't refluff existing Mentors, or at least give your Mentors generic names and then link them to various members of the Egyptian pantheon. That way the rest of us can us them correctly even if we're not playing Egyptians.

[Cardul]

I'm going to add the same complaints I had for the poster who created the Angelic Choir mentor spirits.

There's no reason you couldn't refluff existing Mentors, or at least give your Mentors generic names and then link them to various members of the Egyptian pantheon. That way the rest of us can us them correctly even if we're not playing Egyptians.

Well...a) he could have just used the examples in Street Magic, and b) the Egyptian Tradition is covered in the Digitial Grimoire.

[GreyBrother]

I usually work like this: What Tradition did the character learn? How much did he really >learn< and how much did he make up himself? Does it work for him? Bang, new Tradition.

Most of the Time i just customize customs and rites of the existing Traditions and try not to recreate something horrible out of the depfts of fanfic. I refluff what exists in case of a mentor spirit and if something just won't fit i create it. But making something up from scratch is a last resort and most of the time not needed.

[darthmord]

My character in the campaign I'm a player is has a custom tradition. The tradition (and him are both) based off of Assassin's Creed, Hitman, and Wanted.

The magical tradition itself borrows heavily from Assassin's Creed. The spirits I can have him summon are Guardian, Guidance, Task, Air, and Man. He's not a magical powerhouse per se. He's quite utilitarian. The spirits in his tradition are much the same. The feel I was striving for when making the tradition was that of a guild of sorts. His spirits are his underlings just as he is an underling of those over him in the Guild. Obedience of the leaders is expected / required. Thus it is expected of the spirits as well. But he still treats his spirits with respect as it's also part of the code he lives by.

I haven't really fleshed it out into significant detail, just a bunch of musing and thoughts that go well together. The tradition is mostly drawn from Assassin's Creed (about 60%) with the remainder from Wanted (30%) and a little bit from Hitman (10%).

*edit for clarity*

[The_Vanguard]

I'm going to add the same complaints I had for the poster who created the Angelic Choir mentor spirits.

And this poster still agrees with you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Tanegar, maybe you'd like to have a look at our thread for the full discussion and some inspiration about how mentor spirits can be made more generic. But I really like your fluff.

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

I've had one or two ideas on creating unique traditions for certain characters - mainly for background character details because I was using 3e at the time. In general, I take a big leaf out of the Earthdawn genre, particularly the individual adept's philosophy towards their own Discipline. As such, it more about the way the character is played than tweaing out the mechanics involved in gameplay, but there are times I really needed to alter the RAW to harmonise the tradition's concept with the system. 4e has done well by offering this "open" tradition creation system.

Anyhow, as for the things I've created:

Backpacker Mage: generated for 3e my concept was for a traveller who was into the greener aspects of the world's geology. Not so much a total hippy treehugger or outright Druid but definately someone who was into exploration, fringe sports and environmentally aware. Mainly into reef diving and surfing along with snowboarding and base-jumping. Had a large beach towel with a permanently woven Hermetic Circle (Force 2) for water elementals.

Street Jedi: based on the spellcasting adepts rather than an outright full magician. This was more of an off-the-wall concept that actually developed well enough to be playable. Mainly a take on Obi-Wan Kanobi combined with spirit hunter, in particular as a defender of humanity from Dark forces. Goes really well with Harlequin - Horror related campaigns. When he wanted to inititiate he had to create and bind his own Sustaining foci (physical form of a lightsabre) which would be used to lock the specially developed light sword spell. Made for an effective vampire hunter too.

[hazemyth]

I've played around with this a lot, from small things like itako, blind Japanese spirit mediums (basically Shinto as a possession tradition), to variations on Afro-Caribbean stuff (for which the existing Voodoo rules are too limited). A lot of it was just fluff developmet.

My most out there idea was inspired by Full Metal Alchemist: Hermetic-style mages who mix a possession-based tradition with cutting edge tech. They clone and splice living creatures to creature vessels for Spirits of Plant (mandragora), Beast (chimaera), and Man (homunculus). They also meticulously artifice high-tech drone-bodies for Guardian and Task Spirits (golem). When I can get around to it, I hope to post some of my ideas on-line.

[hazemyth]

Oh, also... One thing that rankles me about Shadowrun is a mis-perception about mentor spirits, in magical traditions. Conventionally, they are not synonymous with gods. The ancient Egyptians, for instance, believed that everyone had a ka -- similar to a Graeco-Roman daemon or genius, a Norse fylgja, or the anima of Jungian interpretation -- a spirit guide that was unique to each person. Definitely not Ra, Anubis or Thoth. (Which doesn't mean your idea isn't fun, Tanegar. Lord know historical accuracy is not the lynch-pin of Shadowrun.)

It's especially weird because Street Magic contradicts itself on this point. The Aztec tradition accurately notes a belief in tonalli -- animal spirit doubles (though I don't think it uses the term itself)-- but then the mentor spirit guide at the back of the book lists the Aztec gods rather than totemic animals. Similarly, the Shinto tradition claims that kanmushi don't believe in mentor spirits but then the entry in the back lists them anyway. I'm guessing those sections must have been written by different people.

[hazemyth]

Oh, and given the dearth of possession-based traditions (that is, until Digital Grimoire came out), I also thought that kachina-style Pueblo traditions might be good candidates, with dancers and dolls serving as vessels. Spirits would probably be Air, Water, Plants, Beasts and Man.

[Demonseed Elite]

It's especially weird because Street Magic contradicts itself on this point. The Aztec tradition accurately notes a belief in tonalli -- animal spirit doubles (though I don't think it uses the term itself)-- but then the mentor spirit guide at the back of the book lists the Aztec gods rather than totemic animals. Similarly, the Shinto tradition claims that kanmushi don't believe in mentor spirits but then the entry in the back lists them anyway. I'm guessing those sections must have been written by different people.

Actually, they were both written by the same person, but that person (me) won't deny there's some strange contradiction there. The problem is that basically mentor spirits as presented in Shadowrun can cover "guides" like daemons but they have also historically covered the portfolios of deities too. They are essentially a vague enough concept in Shadowrun to be either, depending on how the player and GM want to handle it.

The mentor spirit blocks in the back of the book for different geographic areas aren't meant to perfectly correspond to particular traditions. For example, an Aztec nahualli magician might take his spirit animal double as his mentor spirit and that is entirely fine. But an Aztec high priest of Tezcatlipoca could take Tezcatlipoca as his mentor spirit and that's perfectly acceptable too.

[hazemyth]

Makes sense. And, actually, I've dealt with it that way, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tanegar]

I'm going to add the same complaints I had for the poster who created the Angelic Choir mentor spirits.

There's no reason you couldn't refluff existing Mentors, or at least give your Mentors generic names and then link them to various members of the Egyptian pantheon. That way the rest of us can us them correctly even if we're not playing Egyptians.

And this poster still agrees with you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Tanegar, maybe you'd like to have a look at our thread for the full discussion and some inspiration about how mentor spirits can be made more generic. But I really like your fluff.

IMO, generic mentor spirits pretty much undercuts the whole point of creating a custom tradition. Indeed, Vanguard, as you yourself pointed out, many of the mentor spirits given in SR4 are pretty specific to shamanic and/or animistic traditions. Generic spirits assumes that there is a relatively small number of such beings, and that they simply present different masks to different people and/or cultures. If you like that assumption, fine, but I find it excruciatingly boring. I don't want my ma'ati to learn at the feet of the Dark King masquerading as Anubis, I want him to learn at the feet of Anubis. This leads into another point I consider important, the question of gods versus spirits. IMO, they're the same thing. The being named Anubis mentoring ma'ati in the Sixth World is, in fact, the same being who was worshipped as a deity in pharaonic Egypt. If you're familiar with White Wolf's game Mage: The Ascension, you may recognize that my thinking on this topic has been shaped by that game's cosmology.

To my way of thinking, the more generic mentor spirits presented in SR4 (Dark King, Dragonslayer, Fire-Bringer, Moon Maiden, Mountain, Sea, Seductress, Trickster, and Wise Warrior) are placeholder identities to be replaced with names more suited to the individual magician's belief system. A NAN shaman would follow Coyote, not Trickster. A Scandinavian magician would venerate Freya, not Seductress. A Japanese Shinto wizard would study under Masamune, not Wise Warrior. These mentors might grant the same bonuses as Trickster, Seductress and Wise Warrior, but they would not be Trickster, Seductress or Wise Warrior.

[Demonseed Elite]

To my way of thinking, the more generic mentor spirits presented in SR4 (Dark King, Dragonslayer, Fire-Bringer, Moon Maiden, Mountain, Sea, Seductress, Trickster, and Wise Warrior) are placeholder identities to be replaced with names more suited to the individual magician's belief system. A NAN shaman would follow Coyote, not Trickster. A Scandinavian magician would venerate Freya, not Seductress. A Japanese Shinto wizard would study under Masamune, not Wise Warrior. These mentors might grant the same bonuses as Trickster, Seductress and Wise Warrior, but they would not be Trickster, Seductress or Wise Warrior.

That's generally the idea, yeah. Whether or not the "Dark King" mentor spirit venerated by the Norse is the same "Dark King" venerated by a voudoun houngan is never answered by Shadowrun, deliberately. Whether the mentor spirit is even a real spirit isn't even answered. Players and GMs have a lot of flexibility there.

[The_Vanguard]

I don't want my ma'ati to learn at the feet of the Dark King masquerading as Anubis, I want him to learn at the feet of Anubis. If you're familiar with White Wolf's game Mage: The Ascension, you may recognize that my thinking on this topic has been shaped by that game's cosmology.

Ah yes, I can see where you are coming from. You can't argue taste, of course, but I have one caveat: This premise invalidates magic traditions like modern hermeticism and chaos magic that take the "belief shapes things" route. Compared to Mage, it would be like declaring one order's worldview to be factually wrong.

Personally, I prefer not to answer the question at all. Maybe there really is an eternal being that cares for and consorts with the mage. Maybe it's just an aspect of his subconciousness given an almost-form through mana. Maybe the mage is just a schizo.

[Tanegar]

Ah yes, I can see where you are coming from. You can't argue taste, of course, but I have one caveat: This premise invalidates magic traditions like modern hermeticism and chaos magic that take the "belief shapes things" route. Compared to Mage, it would be like declaring one order's worldview to be factually wrong.

I disagree. I think my interpretation lends itself at least as much to the subjective-reality view as the objective-reality view. Who's to say that Anubis wasn't actually created in ancient Egypt by the belief of millions? I tend to think that spirits in the Sixth World are somewhere between independent creations and creatures of belief. Things like elementals probably exist and have existed independently of (meta)human thought, but the exact forms that these spirits take are determined by the beliefs and expectations of the magician summoning them. Spirits of beasts are probably the most independent, being reflections of living things with a limited degree of self-awareness. Spirits of man, on the other hand, I would expect to be the most malleable, the most influenced by belief. Mentor spirits (even so-called "gods"), in my view, are essentially highly advanced spirits who have grown powerful and sophisticated from the human devotion granted to them over centuries or millennia.

[Heath Robinson]

IMO, generic mentor spirits pretty much undercuts the whole point of creating a custom tradition. Indeed, Vanguard, as you yourself pointed out, many of the mentor spirits given in SR4 are pretty specific to shamanic and/or animistic traditions. Generic spirits assumes that there is a relatively small number of such beings, and that they simply present different masks to different people and/or cultures. If you like that assumption, fine, but I find it excruciatingly boring. I don't want my ma'ati to learn at the feet of the Dark King masquerading as Anubis, I want him to learn at the feet of Anubis. This leads into another point I consider important, the question of gods versus spirits. IMO, they're the same thing. The being named Anubis mentoring ma'ati in the Sixth World is, in fact, the same being who was worshipped as a deity in pharaonic Egypt. If you're familiar with White Wolf's game Mage: The Ascension, you may recognize that my thinking on this topic has been shaped by that game's cosmology.

To my way of thinking, the more generic mentor spirits presented in SR4 (Dark King, Dragonslayer, Fire-Bringer, Moon Maiden, Mountain, Sea, Seductress, Trickster, and Wise Warrior) are placeholder identities to be replaced with names more suited to the individual magician's belief system. A NAN shaman would follow Coyote, not Trickster. A Scandinavian magician would venerate Freya, not Seductress. A Japanese Shinto wizard would study under Masamune, not Wise Warrior. These mentors might grant the same bonuses as Trickster, Seductress and Wise Warrior, but they would not be Trickster, Seductress or Wise Warrior.

You might have spotted my rebuttal. The first part of which is that the generic Mentors presented are all archetypal roles given short names that evoke an understanding of their character at a glance. Bears, for example, live on 4 continents and knowledge of them is dispersed to those that are not on those continents by media transfers. Ask an Australian what a bear is, and they'll know despite there not being any bears on their land mass.

Similarly, Wolves and Sharks are widely known in terms of character. As are snakes. These have been attributed similar characters throughout the world. They are known beyond the limits of America and Britain. It's unfair to call them Shamanism-exclusive on that ground. They are archetypes that don't translate easily into English through any other means because our knowledge of the existance of these animals precluded the development of alternative terms for them.


Your assumption that there are singular Mentor Spirits is not the developer's intent to my mind. I see them as a broad classification schema for the multitudinous icons that mages use as a psychological archetype to interpret their magic. I don't see them as being literal beings, despite the SR fluff sometimes implying that they are.

Thus you take your Mentor Spirit Archetype and inject some of your traditions fluff to create Izanami, one of the many Dark Goddess classification Mentors. You could also use Dark King for Izanami, focussing on her aspects of the ruler of the underworld in Japanese myth. That's one more reason why you don't name your Mentor Spirits directly after characters of mythological note. You can always take multiple stances on the meaning of a figure due to the fact that the mythology they inhabit has evolved over time.

Izanami is both the source of the world and its gods, as well as the ruler of the underworld. She could represent Dark King, Dark Goddess, and Great Mother for different mages, and none would be wrong in naming her such. Whilst she is your Mentor Spirit, the name you put after the Quality is the name of the Archetype you follow her under, to make the game mechanics transparent. Feel free to use her name in your character descriptions and all the other fluff.

Giving the name of a particular mythological being to a Mentor strait jackets the choice to interpret the named being in a less standard manner and directly enforces your will on the player. It's getting in the way of roleplay if your player wants to do something slightly different and that is bad. You are posting this on a public resource and, therefore, should pay heed to the ease with which others can use them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Honestly, I could have shoe-horned the character in Black Magic or Druidry or chaos magic or Hermetics..but..it just did not FIT..The character's beliefs have a very earthy connection to them, because she is a CHangeling with Symbiosis. In fact, that is why Earth Spirits are her SPirit choice for divination: The earth Knows everything, and it connects to the belief that she is more connected to the land then other magicians. Since her Surge kinda made her look demonic(Goring Horns, Striking Skin Pigmentation, Balance Tail, Mood Hair, slow healer, Metagenetic improvement: Willpower), her combat spells are flame based(Her Power Bolt actually looks like flames, and I did a custom version of Armour that adds the Flame Elemental effect to it). So, her combat spirits are Fire, just because to her Fire and Battle are mixed. Words are often the origins of lies, and lies are the source of all illusion, so, her Illusion Spirits are Air. While Man: no creature or element is safe from na's influence. Event hose in pristine areas are influenced by Man simply through the atmospheric effects. Thus, man is the ultimate manipulator, and thus, the Spirits for Manipulation. At the same time, everything is about finding a pattern. Tracing the pattern and leaping to it. Mana Ebbs and flows, and by funneling the magic at those moments most favourable, one uses less of their own reserves, thus, her drain Attribute is Intuition. Her Adept powers are Magical Toughness(Stun) and Improved Reflexes(1). Her starting spells are Powerbolt, Flame Armour(yes, when it manifests, that is exactly what it looks like! Basicly, the armour spell with a Flame elemental effect added), Heal, and Mist.

One could say her tradition put a big emphasis on the idea of magc comes from the land, but the magician still uses that power herself. I see that her beliefs, with a stong emphasis on the whole "The blood of the mage is the blood of the land" could actually be an opening for corruption into blood magic, though I think she would be more likely to spill her own blood then someone elses(reinforcing said connections between the magician and the land).

See what I mean about it not really FITTING anywhere else..

I see what you mean... And I think that you came up with a great concept for your tradition...