SR4A and Edge, Or the High Cost of Mr. Lucky Options

[Dwight]

Nuh uh, I was thinking about it last night, and you could make such a build! Make a character with Uneducated and the mental disability flaw... You could also use some custom flaws like Lack of Common Sense (the GM can force your character to do the exact wrong thing at key moments), and maybe a few different varieties of Poor Self Control. You'd need to exceed the 35 point flaw limit, which would be cool cuz you'd end up with a more powerful build, but he'd be too stupid to do anything right and would probably get killed or get the team killed. That would be sweet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

HAHA, well if you are going the custom route you should port the Stupid Trait from Burning Wheel (Traits effectively analogous to Qualities). Yes, it's actually named "Stupid". It adds +Ob1 (+1 Threshold) to all attempts at social Skills used by the character and used on the character. You aren't going to convince anyone of your wrongheaded ways but damned if they are going to be able to turn our your lightbulb on to defect you from your path. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) Then there are the ones like Atravieso (a propensity to fiddle with stuff you shouldn't touch, particularly delicate or fragile things). I've played with that Trait in a fellow group member's PC. The turdheaps that Trait would land us in were epic.

[Muspellsheimr]

Well... if you are willing to work at this instead of telling me to "just shut up", let's look at that to see where you are getting off track. So what do you think it is and how do you calculate that value?

Well... lets see.
Attributes in SR4A advance ~14% faster than they did in SR4.
Everything else in SR4A advances 80% faster than it did in SR4.

Because 'everything else' is a lot more than 'attributes', I would estimate the overall increase in advancement rate to be ~65-70%


How did I get these numbers? By not ignoring half the equation.

[Dwight]

Well... lets see.
Attributes in SR4A advance ~14% faster than they did in SR4.
Everything else in SR4A advances 80% faster than it did in SR4.

Because 'everything else' is a lot more than 'attributes', I would estimate the overall increase in advancement rate to be ~65-70%

Whoa, whoa, back up. That isn't addressing my question (EDIT: and the portion of my post were quoting that you said "Except it is not over 60% and under 100%"). You've gone off track completely here before your post started.

Again, what is the purchasing power of SR4A's Karma relative to SR4's?

To phrase the question another, more mathematical terms, way if you have y Karma in SR4 and x Karma in SR4A such that y creates the same amount of advancement in SR4 that x creates in SR4A, what is the value of x/y?

EDIT: BTW...

How did I get these numbers? By not ignoring half the equation.

... that isn't particularly helpful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Specific sources, please.

[Muspellsheimr]

I just answered the fucking question. You are ignoring fully half the equation in your supposedly accurate calculations - aka failing to take into account the increased rate of Karma gain. 5 Karma SR4 is equivalent to 9 Karma SR4A. Until you get that, none of your math is even remotely close to accurate.

[Dwight]

I just answered the fucking question.

Well it doesn't look like it. Because the text had you talking about something different and the number you approximated, 65%-70% is in agreement with my statement about being somewhere between 60% and 100%

You are ignoring fully half the equation in your supposedly accurate calculations - aka failing to take into account the increased rate of Karma gain.

Ah, no. I explained why it cancels out when you bring it into the calculations. It is on both the numerator and denominator of the SR4A ratio I mentioned earlier. So it gets factored out. Putting it in or leaving it out has no change on the outcome.

5 Karma SR4 is equivalent to 9 Karma SR4A. Until you get that, none of your math is even remotely close to accurate.

LOL, OK see that doesn't come out to 65%-70% at all. Besides being flat out incorrect values to try use to calculate the difference in purchasing power of a point of Karma for advancement.


EDIT: Well it does slightly affect it but that gets into a nuance, and isn't the primary consideration at all. ((EDIT2: Certainly still falling inside the rough range I gave, which really is a range in practice)) I get the feeling that you, given your swearing, you've shut down your reasoning skills so it is pretty much a lose trying to get more detail ... or to even continue talking to you. Thus giving Larme a working demonstration of the Stupid Trait in action. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Muspellsheimr]

Well it doesn't look like it. Because the text had you talking about something different and the number you approximated, 65%-70% is in agreement with my statement about being somewhere between 60% and 100%

In the opposite fucking direction, yes.

Ah, no. I explained why it cancels out when you bring it into the calculations. It is on both the numerator and denominator of the SR4A ratio I mentioned earlier. So it gets factored out. Putting it in or leaving it out has no change on the outcome.

Except you explained absolutely nothing. And it has a significant change on the outcome.

LOL, OK see that doesn't come out to 65%-70% at all. Besides being flat out incorrect values to try use to calculate the difference in purchasing power of a point of Karma for advancement.

So you obviously have no fucking idea what the fuck you are talking about.


The value of Karma is determined by both its availability, & the cost of what it can be used to gain. You are ignoring the availability, & thus nothing you have said is correct. Stop trying to fucking bullshit this & go take some economic & math courses.

I am done with your shit.

[Method]

Um... yeah. You guys should probably drop it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dwight]

So you obviously have no fucking idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Wait, before you storm off can I ask your mathematics schooling/training history? I know "real world" problems do present red herrings, and difficulties gathering info, that you don't always see in a classroom question (at least in the same form), and that those skills can fade over the years when they aren't being used. But it'd be really sad if you had basic high school training recently much less post-secondary. :/

[Tunnel Rat]

Perhaps this will help.

I'm going to create a 'Consumer Product Index' for SR4 and SR4A. Basically, I'm finding out how much you can 'buy' with your karma by find out the average karma cost.

Let's begin with the SR4 costs...
New Specialization: 2 karma
New knowledge/language: 2 karma
New Active skill: 4 karma
New active skill group: 10 karma
(I'm going to say that the skill/attriubute bought is going to go from the range of 2-6 for simplicity, skill groups improve in the 2-4 range.)
Improving a knowlege/language skill by 1: 10.5 karma (Range 3 to 18, averaged to 10.5)
Improving an active skill by 1: 8 karma (range from 4-12, average 8)
Improving an active skill group by 1: 15 karma (range from 10 to 20, average 15)
Improving an attribute by 1: 12 karma (range from 6-18, average 12)
New positive quality: 2 Karma (This is the karma cost of 1 'BP' of the quality)
Remove negative quality: 2 karma (Again, this is the karma cost of 1 'BP' of the quality)
New Spell: 5 Karma
New complex form: 2 karma
Improving a complex form by 1: 4 karma (Assuming range of 2-6, 2-6 karma cost respectfully, average is 4 karma)

The 'Consumer Price Index' for SR4 would be . I got that number by adding together my karma costs that I calculated above, and got the average cost. (2+2+4+10+10.5+8+15+12+2+2+5+2+4=78.5 Which we divide by the number of different 'costs'. 78.5/13=6.04)
Calculating the CPI for SR4A is simple, because most of the numbers won't change. The numbers that will change are the attribute prices.

Improving an attribute by 1: 20 karma (range from 10-30, average 20)

This means that our index will be higher: (2+2+4+10+10.5+8+15+20+2+2+5+2+4=86.5 Which we divide by the number of different 'costs'. 86.5/13=6.65)
So, we have a CPI of 6.04 for SR4, and a CPI of 6.65 for SR4A.

Our SR4 character has 5 karma at the end of the session. That can buy (5/6.04=0.83) 0.83 points worth of 'goods".
Our SR4A character has 9 karma at the end of the session. That can buy (9/6.65=1.35) 1.35 points worth of 'goods'.

What this tells us is that characters in SR4A can buy more skills, attributes, and other miscellaneous karma purchases than a character could in SR4. So, your purchasing power goes up.

So, what is the 'cost' of buying edge from 7-8?

For our SR4 character, 24 karma which buys (24/6.04=3.97) 3.97 points worth of goods.
For our SR4A character, 40 karma which buys (40/6.65=6.02) 6.02 points worth of goods.

The point here isn't that you lose the karma when you buyback edge. The point is that you increased your loss in 'goods' by 150%. Because the true cost of burning edge lies in the value of what you could have bought instead of buying back edge. This is why I say that it is more expensive to burn edge in SR4A.

[Bull]

For those not following along at home, the above is an example of "going a little too far".

Boys, play nice. Lets not insult each other, nor bait each other. Thanks.

Bull

[suppenhuhn]

The point here isn't that you lose the karma when you buyback edge. The point is that you increased your loss in 'goods' by 150%. Because the true cost of burning edge lies in the value of what you could have bought instead of buying back edge. This is why I say that it is more expensive to burn edge in SR4A.

And that is not the point at all.
The reason why you and that halfwit that resorts to call everyone that disagrees with him an idiot are wrong is that there is no average consumer price.
You don't buy averages, you buy a skill level and the point is that this is way more expensive when your target level is 6 then when your target level is 1.
It is exactly this what makes new mr lucky better off then old mr lucky.

[pbangarth]

Thats appears to be where you are falling down, not understanding the basic construction of the comparison in question. When you are comparing the impact of burning Edge in SR4 vs SR4A you've got two ratios:

Mr. Stupid (SR4)
-------------------
Mr. Lucky (SR4)

and

Mr. Stupid (SR4A)
---------------------
Mr. Lucky (SR4A)

Then you compare the ratios to see which version of the rules create the wider gap between burning and not burning Edge. What happens is that the extra Karma/session appears in the second ratio on both the top AND bottom, numerator and denominator. If you stroll your memory back to late Grade school, that factor then cancels out. It becomes effectively irrelevant in this comparison.

(emphasis mine)

I have been skimming this discussion more rapidly as the arguments became more vitriolic, so please forgive me if I am missing something, but are you suggesting that the following is true for non-zero values of Z?

X/Y = (X+Z)/(Y+Z)

[Dwight]

The reason why you and that halfwit that resorts to call everyone that disagrees with him an idiot

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Dwight]

(emphasis mine)

I have been skimming this discussion more rapidly as the arguments became more vitriolic, so please forgive me if I am missing something, but are you suggesting that the following is true?

X/Y = (X+Z)/(Y+Z)

XZ/YZ = X/Y

'factor', definition #2.


EDIT: In this case Z, if you apply it in the second ratio, is the ratio of Karma earned in SR4A to Karma earned in SR4. So 9/5 (nominally), or 1.8 if you want to express it as a decimal. Because both characters gain that extra Karma.

[pbangarth]

X/Y = XZ/YZ

Factor, definition #2.

But that's not how the two versions of SR4 (and of this argument) go. Each situation has an initial state (X_I and Y_I). To this is added the karma from SR4, which gives X and Y. SR4A adds an extra bit of karma, which is the Z.

[Larme]

And that is not the point at all.
The reason why you and that halfwit that resorts to call everyone that disagrees with him an idiot are wrong is that there is no average consumer price.
You don't buy averages, you buy a skill level and the point is that this is way more expensive when your target level is 6 then when your target level is 1.
It is exactly this what makes new mr lucky better off then old mr lucky.

I think that a consumer price index is the correct way to look at it. You can't just compare buying back edge to buying back skills. That makes the faulty assumption that these are the only two things worth spending karma on. It ignores the fact that a good character may want to make significant expenditures in other attributes and qualities (especially martial arts).

What we want to know the value of the karma. It's true that there is no absolute way of determining this, but a price index is the closest estimate. But "you don't buy averages" misses the point. The point is, the index of what you can buy estimates the value of your assets. It's not a perfect metric, but it's better than your option, which is apparently nothing. The reason you think that Mr. Lucky is better off when burning edge is because you're relying on what is essentially a skewed consumer price index, one which leaves out any consideration of buying up attributes (as opposed to just replacing burnt edge) and buying qualities.

Now, if it were me, I'd leave out spells and complex forms from the index, because we're talking about Mr. Lucky. In order to afford high Edge and reasonably well rounded skills and attributes, Mr. Lucky is typically mundane. I'm not sure how this would change the average -- it might not, since it applies to both SR4, and SR4A. The point is, karma is more valuable in SR4A, so throwing it down the crapper is a worse idea in SR4A than it was in SR4. You can argue, of course, about having higher karma awards in SR4A. But this will vary from table to table, depending on the length, complexity, and difficulty of the runs undertaken. Karma awards are a variable factor, impossible to pin down with any certainty. Karma awards could create inflation, which would negate the differences in the price index between versions, but it could just as easily create deflation, and make Mr. Lucky even worse off.

PS. Isn't it a little bit astounding that you would call someone halfwit right after an admin told you to cool it? Especially because your beef with this person is that he calls people stupid. Hypocrite, much?

[Draco18s]

But that's not how the two versions of SR4 (and of this argument) go. Each situation has an initial state (X_I and Y_I). To this is added the karma from SR4, which gives X and Y. SR4A adds an extra bit of karma, which is the Z.

It's math, bitches.
(Mild language warning)

[Muspellsheimr]

I will attempt to explain this in a simplistic view one final time.

SR4 Karma Gain = 5. This is how much of the resource is available.

SR4A Karma Gain = 9. Again, how much is available.

Thus, SR4 5 Karma, for matters of comparison, is equivalent to SR4A 9 Karma.


SR4, 5 Karma will buy you 1.66 levels of attribute advancement (5/3)

SR4A, 9 Karma will buy you 1.80 levels of attribute advancement (9/5)

SR4A, your attributes advance at a ~8% faster rate than the SR4 equivalent.


SR4, 5 Karma will buy you 2.5 levels of skill advancement (5/2)

SR4A, 9 Karma will buy you 4.5 levels of skill advancement (9/2)

SR4A, your skills advance at a ~80% faster rate than the SR4 equivalent.


Everything else is at the same ratio of skills (80%). Because of the faster rate of advancement in everything, burning Edge in SR4A is less detrimental than burning Edge in SR4.


This is, of course, all calculated at the higher suggested Karma award values. If we use the lower suggested awards ( 4 / 8 ), it comes out even further in favor of SR4A.

[Draco18s]

The point is, karma is more valuable in SR4A

False. Karma awards increased 80% therefore Karma is worth about 80% less each. The only cost that went up was Attributes, which went up 60%. Therefore, buying an attribute is about 20% less expensive.

Think of it like this:

You're paid $5 an hour to do some job.
Current Cost of Living is $200 / wk. (note: $5 / hr. * 40 = 200)

Now, the economy rolls along and blam, inflation.
Now you're paid $9 an hour to do the same job. Great!
Unfortunately the Cost of Living went up to $320.

Hmm...9 * 40 = 360. 360 is $40 more than 320.

OMG! EXTRA!

[Larme]

False. Karma awards increased 80% therefore Karma is worth about 80% less each. The only cost that went up was Attributes, which went up 60%. Therefore, buying an attribute is about 20% less expensive.

Ok, here's the disconnect. I looked at the SR4A table, and I don't see where it gives you 80% more karma. The one major change I spotted was that you get 1 karma per mission objective. Is there a formula where you figure out the average number of objectives in a mission? Or is there a part I'm missing that suggests how many there should be? As far as I can tell, SR4A gives a table which returns a variable rate of karma based on differing, well, variables. It's not a set amount. There's no guarantee of 9 karma per adventure any more than there was a guarantee of 5 karma per adventure in SR4. Unless I'm missing something, in which case I would really appreciate a page cite.

And whether or not I'm missing anything, I fully acknowledged that the level of karma given per adventure could very well change the calculus. Why are you being so hostile when making a point that I already conceded? Especially when an admin just told you to put a lid on it not one hour ago?

[Dwight]

Ah, that's how you do subscript. The BB Code Help page is failing to open for me.

But that's not how the two versions of SR4 (and of this argument) go. Each situation has an initial state (X_I and Y_I). To this is added the karma from SR4, which gives X and Y. SR4A adds an extra bit of karma, which is the Z.

What are you imagining the "initial state" represents? Because the actual value of the karma earned doesn't change what the karma buys, and therefore it doesn't actually value the karma burnt.

Well it sort of influences it but only slightly because the curves that define that relationship are close approximations of a straight line as long as Karma is flowing and you haven't run out of things to spend Karma on. Meaning you are playing the game in a manner that earns some semblance of the rules guidelines and you haven't yet earned whatever 1000's of Karma you need to cap all the Skills and effectively run out of Qualities to spend it on.

But more importantly how are you envisioning constructing that ratio to represent the actual advancement?

[pbangarth]

I will attempt to explain this in a simplistic view one final time.
SR4 Karma Gain = 5. This is how much of the resource is available.
SR4A Karma Gain = 9. Again, how much is available.
Thus, SR4 5 Karma, for matters of comparison, is equivalent to SR4A 9 Karma.
SR4, 5 Karma will buy you 1.66 levels of attribute advancement (5/3)
SR4A, 9 Karma will buy you 1.80 levels of attribute advancement (9/5)
SR4A, your attributes advance at a ~8% faster rate than the SR4 equivalent.
SR4, 5 Karma will buy you 2.5 levels of skill advancement (5/2)
SR4A, 9 Karma will buy you 4.5 levels of skill advancement (9/2)
SR4A, your skills advance at a ~80% faster rate than the SR4 equivalent.
Everything else is at the same ratio of skills (80%). Because of the faster rate of advancement in everything, burning Edge in SR4A is less detrimental than burning Edge in SR4.
This is, of course, all calculated at the higher suggested Karma award values.

Well... shit. That makes sense. Why didn't you say so before? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Larme]

I agree that it makes sense too, but can anyone explain where it tells me I get 9 karma? I can't find that reference, and that's the problem I'm having.

[Tunnel Rat]

And that is not the point at all.
The reason why you and that halfwit that resorts to call everyone that disagrees with him an idiot are wrong is that there is no average consumer price.
You don't buy averages, you buy a skill level and the point is that this is way more expensive when your target level is 6 then when your target level is 1.
It is exactly this what makes new mr lucky better off then old mr lucky.

It doesn't matter whether you go by averages, or you pick a specific point. Let's say we talk about raising a skill to 6. That costs 12 points, right?

By SR4 that's 1/2 of the karma spent to buyback your edge to 8.
By SR4A that's 3/10th of the karma you spend to buyback your edge to 8.

Using an average is important, because you can *also* use that edge to buy a different attribute at 8.

By SR4 that's 100% of the karma spent to buyback your edge to 8.
By SR4A that's 100% of the karma spent to buyback your edge to 8.

By this example, one could make the argument that there is no difference between the cost between SR4 and SR4A. Which, is misleading because we all know that you won't be buying many attributes at level 8, and most people would buy other things (like skills) with their karma.

The idea behind using an average is to incorporate the lack of change in the cost of everything else into the change in the cost of attributes. That creates a more correct interpretation of how things changed than just taking one single factor.

(emphasis mine)

I have been skimming this discussion more rapidly as the arguments became more vitriolic, so please forgive me if I am missing something, but are you suggesting that the following is true?

X/Y = (X+Z)/(Y+Z)

Actually, I believe he's suggesting that:

X/Y = (X * Z)/(Y * Z)

[Dwight]

But that's not how the two versions of SR4 (and of this argument) go. Each situation has an initial state (X_I and Y_I). To this is added the karma from SR4, which gives X and Y. SR4A adds an extra bit of karma, which is the Z.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Oh wait, I'm sorry. In what you are proposing X_I = Y_I, because both the characters using the same rules are starting from the same initial point, right? So

(X_I + Z)/(Y_I +Z) = (Y_I + Z)/(Y_I +Z) = 1

Again, all gone. "It's math, bitches" indeed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)