IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Logic and Spellcasting in 4A
Shinobi Killfist
post Apr 10 2009, 03:15 AM
Post #1


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,431
Joined: 3-December 03
Member No.: 5,872



I may have missed something but it seems everything that Logic did for magic is now ties to the Magic attribute, except being a possible drain stat. # of focuses you can bind now magic, enchanting tests now magic, arcana test now magic. Hey Astral forms my Logic is my agility that should totally rock, except as in the previous edition astral combat uses willpower, so astral agility is the do nothing stat.

How about Assensing since logic lost all of its skills, that had to to be governed by magic now..well no its still intuition.
Binding the number of spirits you can bind is now limited by magic not charisma, oops nope still charisma.

So, why the hate for logic traditions. Logic is the crap stat in 4e as is, the more important skills its tied to don't actually really use it much if at all. Where as charisma gets the social package, and intuition gets maybe the most important skill in the game perception.

Even before 4a logic traditions were the worse choice due to the skill sets the other attributes got and due to well elves getting a +2 charisma. So they made logic traditions even worse now, and the other traditions are still just as good as before.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 10 2009, 03:42 AM
Post #2


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 17,565
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 9 2009, 08:15 PM) *
I may have missed something but it seems everything that Logic did for magic is now ties to the Magic attribute, except being a possible drain stat. # of focuses you can bind now magic, enchanting tests now magic, arcana test now magic. Hey Astral forms my Logic is my agility that should totally rock, except as in the previous edition astral combat uses willpower, so astral agility is the do nothing stat.

How about Assensing since logic lost all of its skills, that had to to be governed by magic now..well no its still intuition.
Binding the number of spirits you can bind is now limited by magic not charisma, oops nope still charisma.

So, why the hate for logic traditions. Logic is the crap stat in 4e as is, the more important skills its tied to don't actually really use it much if at all. Where as charisma gets the social package, and intuition gets maybe the most important skill in the game perception.

Even before 4a logic traditions were the worse choice due to the skill sets the other attributes got and due to well elves getting a +2 charisma. So they made logic traditions even worse now, and the other traditions are still just as good as before.



However, I believe that you can only have as many Foci active as your Logic Stat Score... Or did I misread it somewhere? Which could indeed be the case...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Mack
post Apr 10 2009, 03:48 AM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 220
Joined: 15-March 09
Member No.: 16,972



QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 10 2009, 12:42 PM) *
However, I believe that you can only have as many Foci active as your Logic Stat Score... Or did I misread it somewhere? Which could indeed be the case...


That's correct, you can only have as many active Foci as your Logic Stat.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 10 2009, 03:49 AM
Post #4


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 17,565
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (The Mack @ Apr 9 2009, 08:48 PM) *
That's correct, you can only have as many active Foci as your Logic Stat.



I though that I saw that somewhere, gald to know that I was not hallucinating...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shinobi Killfist
post Apr 10 2009, 04:02 AM
Post #5


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,431
Joined: 3-December 03
Member No.: 5,872



I was misremembering 4e a bit. I thought logic tied to not how many could be active at once, but how many you could bind. While it is better than I thought, it still seems weak in comparison. I am glad I am was missing something though.

I prefer logic traditions, probably due to me playing to much D&D as a kid or something. Wizards are supposed to be smart. But, game mechanic wise I have a hard time convincing myself I am not gimping myself in comparison. Sure I'm still a mage, but I just don't seem to have the oomph of a shaman. Elves just make it worse, +2 to a drain stat and you are almost a Face from the get go.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cardul
post Apr 10 2009, 04:11 AM
Post #6


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 992
Joined: 2-August 06
Member No.: 9,006



QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 9 2009, 11:02 PM) *
I was misremembering 4e a bit. I thought logic tied to not how many could be active at once, but how many you could bind. While it is better than I thought, it still seems weak in comparison. I am glad I am was missing something though.

I prefer logic traditions, probably due to me playing to much D&D as a kid or something. Wizards are supposed to be smart. But, game mechanic wise I have a hard time convincing myself I am not gimping myself in comparison. Sure I'm still a mage, but I just don't seem to have the oomph of a shaman. Elves just make it worse, +2 to a drain stat and you are almost a Face from the get go.


A logic/intuition tradition has the advantage that you have more knowledge skills with how you build the character. Charimsa Traditions do favour elves. Logic/Intuition traditions favour dwarves. Nothing really favours humans, all of them kind do not help Trolls or Orks. Though Trolls, I think, are more likely to over-cast, since they have more physical toughness. Personally, I believe every mage is unique, and should be approached that way. Some have things they are better at then others. Remember that Arcana links to Logic, so those with higher logic are going to have an easier time designing their own spells.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Heath Robinson
post Apr 10 2009, 04:25 AM
Post #7


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,263
Joined: 4-March 08
From: Blighty
Member No.: 15,736



Logic can be easily augmented with 'ware. You can achieve Logic 9 natural maximum (with a rather rare combination of a quality, SURGE, and gene optimisation, I admit), with a bonus of 3 from 'ware for a total of 12. Compared to a maximum of 11 for Charisma (which precludes take the metatype with a Willpower Boost). With a Dwarf that gives you a hypothetical base drain pool of 20 dice (compared to 18 for the Charisma tradition alternative). You can quite reasonably resist DV 5, meaning you can cast at F 10 for +0 mod spells without considering it a significant risk.

By my calculations you expect .233 damage on each casting. For a more reasonable build you can be looking at 7-8 Logic, plus a Willpower of 5-6 = 12-14. For that you should be looking at casting for DV 3, meaning F 6 for +0 mod spells.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caadium
post Apr 10 2009, 04:26 AM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 604
Joined: 1-December 08
From: Sacramento, California
Member No.: 16,646



For me its all about theme. Yes you can make an elf shaman face type. But you can also make a Logic spell slinger that is also focused on things like electronics, computers, or medicine. For example, I wouldn't do my Street Doc Mage idea as a shaman.

In every game, and every system, there are ways to work the mechanics to get an edge and create more 'ideal' builds. If that type of game is what you enjoy, find a group that focuses on that. If you enjoy doing stuff for theme and having the highest dice pool possible isn't the main focus, then find a group that is more closely aligned with that pool. There is no such thing as perfect balance. However, even with so much of magic tied to the Magic attribute, there are still plenty of reasons to make a Logic based spell slinger.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Mack
post Apr 10 2009, 05:55 PM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 220
Joined: 15-March 09
Member No.: 16,972



QUOTE (Cardul @ Apr 10 2009, 01:11 PM) *
A logic/intuition tradition has the advantage that you have more knowledge skills with how you build the character. Charimsa Traditions do favour elves. Logic/Intuition traditions favour dwarves. Nothing really favours humans, all of them kind do not help Trolls or Orks.


Well I think Intuition and Orks is a great fit.

While the Dwarf may have a slightly better drain (+1 WILL), I think Orks are all around a better choice when it comes to mechanics.

They get enough BOD and STR that you can effectively dump both at char gen, and going for an INT based tradtion means no worrying about their limited LOG and CHA. And they're 10 points cheaper than the Elf, which you can use for MAG or EDG, which helps close the gap a touch.


That being said, I like that Elves make for good magicians.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Athanatos
post Apr 10 2009, 10:46 PM
Post #10


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 87
Joined: 14-March 07
Member No.: 11,228



Personally, I was hoping that Willpower could be a second as well as first drain attribute lol. I tend to have Very strong willed magicians. We're talking stubborn enough not to admit which direction the sun rises in lol.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shinobi Killfist
post Apr 11 2009, 02:37 AM
Post #11


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,431
Joined: 3-December 03
Member No.: 5,872



QUOTE (The Mack @ Apr 10 2009, 01:55 PM) *
Well I think Intuition and Orks is a great fit.

While the Dwarf may have a slightly better drain (+1 WILL), I think Orks are all around a better choice when it comes to mechanics.

They get enough BOD and STR that you can effectively dump both at char gen, and going for an INT based tradtion means no worrying about their limited LOG and CHA. And they're 10 points cheaper than the Elf, which you can use for MAG or EDG, which helps close the gap a touch.


That being said, I like that Elves make for good magicians.


I was thinking about doing this, but I wasn't going to dump strength. I wasn't sure if I could make hardliner gloves a weapon focus. I thought it would be cool to make a brawler mage with a punching weapon focus rating 2, and focusing on touch combat spells. 4 unarmed specialized in hardliner gloves, 4 agility, 2 weapon focus=12 dice whcih isn't bad for a mage. 5 willpower 4 astral combat specialized in the weapon focus and the rating 2 weapon focus. And you have 13 dice. Maybe take restricted gear to get a rating 4 weapon focus.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Mack
post Apr 11 2009, 02:42 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 220
Joined: 15-March 09
Member No.: 16,972



QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 11 2009, 11:37 AM) *
I was thinking about doing this, but I wasn't going to dump strength. I wasn't sure if I could make hardliner gloves a weapon focus. I thought it would be cool to make a brawler mage with a punching weapon focus rating 2, and focusing on touch combat spells. 4 unarmed specialized in hardliner gloves, 4 agility, 2 weapon focus=12 dice whcih isn't bad for a mage. 5 willpower 4 astral combat specialized in the weapon focus and the rating 2 weapon focus. And you have 13 dice. Maybe take restricted gear to get a rating 4 weapon focus.


Here's an idea to stretch that concept.


Psionic Tradition from Digital Grimoire.

Now you have WILL + INT as your drain attributes and you're a possession tradition and can seriously beef yourself up in combat, not to mention Task spirit silliness.

You also don't have to do lots of finagling with spirits like the more religious traditions, because as far as you're concerned they're thought constructs developed from your own mind.

The only things it lacks vs. say Voodoo is that you don't get guardian spirits to maximize the possession benefits (not that fire spirits are bad mind you), and it also depends on the GMs rulings for some things like spells, and mentor spirits (which psionics don't use).

Still, it makes for an interesting character.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 1st April 2020 - 08:01 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.