 The Horrors and Death Magic? Answers In Earthdawn, And Who's Really Behind Aztlan-SPOILERS- |
  |
 Jan 18 2004, 01:05 PM
Post
#126
|
|||||||
|
Canon Companion  Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187  |
You got page and book references to go with your theories? I've been waiting for Canon SR or even ED page and book references since you first posted. You can't even meet my low standards of substantiating your claims. I want a page and book reference! Show me the money!
So you have a book and page reference that says she is the first recorded instance of HMHVV? An actual "And thus the first vampire/blood sucker was born" would do.
Is this Canon? Backed up by actual history? Otherwise it is a THEORY, it might be supported by hints and other insinuations but it is not firm Canon ground. Your theories ARE well researched but they are the same as saying the Ryan Mercury was trained by Dunkelzahn because he works for DF and knew D personally and is a drake. But unless it was confirmed like it was confirmed in the Dragonheart saga, it doesn't count. Get my meaning? |
||||||
 |
 
|
||||||
|
Jan 18 2004, 01:14 PM
Post
#127
|
|
|
Harlequin Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 331 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 861 |
I'm starting to wonder if Master Shake can't be Evan Moore with a new handle?
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 18 2004, 01:21 PM
Post
#128
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Melbourne Member No.: 652 |
Of course there is one minor problem with this. Parlainth is a pre-scourge 4th age city. Teotihuacan is only about 2700 years old (According to carbon 14 dating). I suspect there's a couple of thousand years of age missing, even with time spent in an astral pocket |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 18 2004, 02:03 PM
Post
#129
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,114 |
Well, Master Shake, I'll try to give you something that may give a different explanation for Teotihucan and the blood magic aztech use, with some references.
"Feathered dragons originate from a land far from Barsaive,near Araucania." That places them near central or south america. (Dragons, p.128) "Although they are able to use blood magic like other Name-givers, dragons generally disdain it in favor of their other magical powers and abilities. Certain Feathered dragons are the only dragons to regularly use blood magic." (Dragons, p.139) As to Teotihuacan (sp?), you must understand that the drawing is the point of view of the artist, NOT the point of view of the author. Have you ever seen an image of a troll in ED or SR. They seem to be 2 or 2.2 meters high. A troll is 2.8 meter high in the rules, but never in any picture. The same goes here. Similarity in a drawing is not something certain. As I see it (speculations here), it might as well be that when the aztec found the city, they found an ancient theran city of Araucania. Concerning their use of blood magic, it might come from pictures they have seen in this ancient city, showing the way therans (or more probably feathered dragons) did in the 4th Age. They practised it during the 5th Age, and when the mana rised in SR, a feathered serpent that laired near awakened, and used the legends of Quetzalcoatl to teach them the proper way to do. For the corruption of the dragon, he might have been during the 4th Age, or maybe the use of so much blood sacrifices near his lair corrupted him. Founders of the aztlan way may also have been dragonkin from this feathered serpent, explaining why they use so heavily blood magic. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 18 2004, 02:39 PM
Post
#130
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I know I'm just encouraging Shake by putting this down, but I'd like to at least put one ghost to rest in this thread:
This is edited, mainly 'cause I didn't want to write out the whole thing. But the important parts are there. Now then:
I have always stated that it is inconclusive whether Eletheria is a vampire or not. There just isn't enough evidence either way for a definitive statement to be made. I do disagree with the notion of her as the "First vampire" or "Queen of the Damned" however, as mention was made of vampires before her, and mentions of vampires after her bear little resemblance. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 19 2004, 01:51 AM
Post
#131
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 422 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Columbus, OH Member No.: 875 |
FYI, Earthdawn spell: City in a Bottle. Not saying it was used to move Parlainth, but if it exists, you can never rule out use of it or of something more powerful (metaplanar travel). I don't see why you can't accept that Parlainth could be in Mexico. This theory sounds great to me. It certainly ties up a lot of loose ends. 8) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 19 2004, 02:04 AM
Post
#132
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
City In a Bottle was not the spell used on Parlainth.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2004, 02:10 AM
Post
#133
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 422 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Columbus, OH Member No.: 875 |
I realize that, but if a spell like that exists, then it is not out of the question that Parlainth could end up on the other side of the world.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2004, 02:23 AM
Post
#134
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Yaar. But Parlainth is completely corrupted, while Teotihuacan isn't. The Azzie blood-mages don't even like Teotihuacan.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2004, 02:36 AM
Post
#135
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,007 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Proposal: during the previously existing time, Verjigorm created things and destroyed them. In the "0th Age" Verjigorm created Dragons, which he was unable to destroy. They survived until the downcycle forced Verjigorm away, making the First Age the first to have living beings throughout (though hibernating). ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 19 2004, 02:39 AM
Post
#136
|
|
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
And at -1st Age, we have humans kicking Horror ass. :rollin:
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2004, 11:01 AM
Post
#137
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,114 |
Wrong. At 1st Age, we have downcycle kicking Horror ass. ;) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 19 2004, 11:28 AM
Post
#138
|
|
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
What's the difference? I'm talking about the -1st Age, not the 1st Age.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2004, 05:46 PM
Post
#139
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,007 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
At the -1st Age, we have nothing because Verjigorm kicked everything in the -2nd Age's ass, and the -1st is a Downcycle.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2004, 08:34 PM
Post
#140
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,114 |
Well, in fact, Verjy kicked everything in the -1st Age (or 0th Age if you prefer), and the 1st Age was a downcycle, as the 2nd Age, the Age of legends, was a magic Age.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2004, 08:36 PM
Post
#141
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
The 2nd World was the Age of Dragons, the 4th World was the Age of Legend
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2004, 08:52 PM
Post
#142
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 19-December 03 Member No.: 5,920 |
(Delurk) Hi All, I'm new to the Forum, but have been playing SR since 89. Thought I'd throw my thoughts in: Tskang and Obsidimen in the 6th World, one thing Cannon that springs to mind is from the Tir Taingire SB (Forget which page) in that it is suggested that Vitas was manufactured. Incidentally it wiped out a 3rd of the Earths Population, could it be that someone specifically targeted those Humans or animals with Vitas who had Tskang or Obsidimen Genes. Max |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 19 2004, 08:59 PM
Post
#143
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,114 |
The info about more races comes from the same interview of Mike: "They died out at the end of the last magic cycle and didn't make it, plus being more magically constructed than the others they took the lack of magic "harder" than the others. So therefore, no real fix. For the sake of argument, assumer there were something like 20-25 different races in the Second World; 8 survived that loss of magic. Now only 5 survived this next one." |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 19 2004, 09:03 PM
Post
#144
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
Hopefully the elves are next.
Although logic seems to imply its trolls and orcs next. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2004, 09:03 PM
Post
#145
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034 |
I don't beleive that there are any suggestions in earthdawn that Obsidimen are related (biologically) to the other namegiver races. There are, however, suggestions that they are not related. It would be really quite bizarre, given how obsidimen work, if humans were UGE'ing into them, or giving birth to baby Obsidimen. For one thing I am pretty sure there are no baby Obsidimen. They bud off of thier liferocks fully formed and at least somwhat educated and intelligent.
Tskrang are, I think, also not related to humans at all. If they are anywhere during down cycle it might be a non-sentient form. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2004, 09:26 PM
Post
#146
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Whoosh!
1) Master Shake, please stay around and keep posting your theories. Contrary to what is apparently popular opinion, it's all speculation until the books nail it down - and they most carefully haven't. 2) The length of time a poster has been around the boards should make absolutely no difference to anything except expectation that older posters would be rather more familiar with the rules of the board. 3) Quickness to acknowledge error seems to be directly proportional to the other person's a) stubbornness, b) ability to cite text, c) board longevity. 4) It's the easiest thing in the world to equate the absolute validity of one's own theories with one's own validity generally. There's lots of work involved, on both sides, but guys: they're only theories, and that about a fictional universe! To hear the two of you, you'd think you were rival academics duelling over grant money. 5) If you want to set a bunch of Tolkeinites at each others' throats ultra-quickly, drop the racism bullcape. There's certainly enough evidence, but then again racism was very much the environment of the times. (Go check back through United States history - specifically Senator Wheeler and his following.) 6) In real life, there's lots of onion domes in Kiev as well as Moscow, and they're about the same age. I've been inside them in both cities :grinbig: 7) It's all fiction anyway! |
|
|
|
|
Jan 19 2004, 11:30 PM
Post
#147
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
TI has a point or seven.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 20 2004, 12:03 AM
Post
#148
|
|||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 14-January 04 Member No.: 5,978 |
Even when it’s quoted there can be disagreement? Am I nuts or is that everything BUT coming out and specifically stating that she was the creator and first carrier of HMHVV? We have HMHVV in the 6th world with its various interactions with meta-types but no explanation of where/when this arose though it appeared to exist before the 6th world. In the 4th world there are vague references to vampires, one in Companion that seems to be the classic 'vampire' because it can be warded off with garlic. The other a horror construct called 'vampire' that has no resemblance to HMHVV carriers besides the name 'vampire' ascribed to it. Still no explanation of HMHVV. In Blood Wood we have a rather clear description of an HMHVV carrier, and as she is described, she would appear to be the first and originator of the blood magic/virus. HMHVV could only arise through some radical and dangerous magic and we have someone doing such research, even with a dash of Horror connection thrown in for good measure. She is described as being pale, only appearing at Nights, being strong enough to rip apart Elf patrols and she rips out hearts and drinks all their blood. If she isn't the first HMHVV, then why is she in the source book? She doesn't advance the meta-plot and she is described as having all the strengths and weaknesses and desires of HMHVV carriers. If not THE HMHVV, what is she? The claim that vampires are mentioned 'before her' is baseless. She became a vampire during the scourge or right before it and appears right after the scourge ends which is th every beginning of the Earthdawn timeframe. If there were any claims of HMHVV existing before the Earthdawn scourge, which there aren't, then that claim would be valid. There is no evidence of Vampires existing prior to Eletheria, if there is, please enlighten me to it because I have no idea how you could make such a claim. It’s a pretty high standard to overcome what appears to be a pretty unsubtle explanation of the origins of HMHVV. Since you haven’t overcome that, what is the rational basis for denying the obvious? Eletheria of the Escalanas was the first HMHVV carrier. She created the virus through dark blood magic experiments and/or some help from Horrors. If this is a stupid hobby that we share, of trying to find out what's really going on in E/S, this must be one of the more obvious ones. They do everything BUT come out and say that she was teh first HMHVV carrier. This is certainly more obvious and less subtle than Ehren being 'Wordsmyth.' Where in S is there such an unsubtle claim that Ehren is 'Wordsmyth?' The first HMHVV is an obvious one, more obvious than some of the other E/S claims that are genrally accepted. This requires only an acceptance of what is written, yeah, she's the 'Queen of the Damned,' an obvious nod to Anne Rice. To claim that she isn't would require an equally good source from E that would contradict what is sad in 'Blood Wood.' To claim that there isn't enough data to conclude is just logically preposterous, what is that if not a description of the first HMHVV carrier? We have no other explanation anywhere, we know the connection between E and S, and we have a rather explicit description of HMHVV and how it first arose. Some unspecified Fire or feathered dragons being behind Aztlan? Perhaps. But if the only basis of such a claim is that Feathered dragons live in warm climates like Central America, then it’s a pretty weak hypothesis. After all, Feathered Dragons are also described as living in Indrisa, or India and there isn't an Indian version of Teotihuiacan and Aztechnology there. Fire Dragons may have used Blood and Death magic but they were not unique in their use, and there is nothing direct to tie Fire Dragons to Aztechnology. What we have behind Aztlan in a Dragon of an unspecified type who is corrupted, not just a user of dark magic. The actions of Aztlan to bring about the Horrors is clearly the work of a corrupted Dragon. Are there any corrupt Dragons from E or S that could fit the bill besides Charcoalgrin? A Fire dragon even? Hualpa is a Fire/Feather dragon who laired in the Yucatan but he was forced out by Aztlan and set up in S America. Hualpa certainly uses blood magic, perhaps even Death magic as is suggested that such Dragosn do use, but he isn't corrupt. He isn't trying to bring about the Horrors, so it's clear that Feathered Dragons are not corrupt just because they use such magic. In fact, Hualpa is opposed to Aztlan, doesn’t appear to have any knowledge of who or what is behind Aztlan. Who ever it is, they outmaneuvered him since he was the one forced to flee his lair in Azzie territory and move to S America. Hualpa states that he see no evidence of Dragon Magic behind Aztlan and when he meets Juan, the Azzie front man, he has no idea who he could be and can't pierce his aura. If the Great Feathered Dragon from the Yucatan can't recognize a fellow Fire dragon from the same region, a region he lived in and thus would have intimate knowledge of, perhaps even raising THE Dragon, or at least the Dragons front man in Juan, it's not a local Dragon from C America in E times that's behind Aztlan. So there is no reason or evidence to think that just because Fire dragons like Hualpa use blood magic, even death magic, that there is one behind Aztlan. Amazonia isn't bringing about the Horrors so that argument has no legs, and isn't a valid theory of the origins of Aztlan since there is no E or S evidence to back it up, let alone a clear rationale for why it would be. I never said that Teotihuacan 'resembles' Parlainth, I've said that Parlainth was designed directly after that city, and that they are one and the same. The specific art and look of the city was designed based on gridlines of the game developers. That's specifically how they wanted the city to look. The cover art of the 'Parlainth GM's Book' is artwork that the Horrors drew inside the city once they corrupted it and claimed it for their own. It is clearly in the C American sacrificial mural style, even down to the fact that the human slaves being depicted have the large, slightly 'squared' noses that Mayan/Aztecs kings and gods and artwork are all depicted as having even though those features are not found in the art of Russians or in the art of any other Barsaivian or Theran places. The claim that this is coincidental doesn't give the E/S folks enough credit. They may have left holes and made mistakes here and there, but they have always been deliberate in crafting a complex world which is why trying to figure out what's really going on can be interesting. Distinct C American art and architecture in Russia, ALONE, and this city is designed directly after Teotihuacan, a city of great importance in Aztlan according to Target: Awakened Lands, it is one of the most powerful magic cites on earth which would certainly fit Parlainth. Parlainth, as a central pillar in Earthdawn is no accident. Charcoalgrin living there is no accident, Erypimese being her puppet is no accident, the corruption and dominance of Horrors over the place is no accident, the absurd ‘No-Memory’ and disappearing sell is no accident, the art and architecture is no accident. My conclusions could always be wrong, but they fit all the facts from E/S that exist in regards to this stuff. The Aztlan Explanation isn't based on just a single argument even though Parlainth being Teotihuacan is pretty clear in the specifics of its design alone. Despite that some want to dismiss it as being no-specific and generally resembling without any reason behind such a claim, it is copied directly which is verifiable with a Mexican history book and the Parlainth boxed set. This explains the seeming absurd notion of a C American city in Russia since C American art and architecture is really 'Russian' and was copied from Parlainth when the locals found this mysterious lost city, as it says in T:AL. Also explains their knowledge of Blood/death magic which they tried to replicate through the down cycle with their massive and murderous sacrifices while nowhere else was this the case. Nowhere else was their such knowledge of the cycles of magic and the Horrors even though Horrors and the scourge was global and certainly Feathered dragons existed elsewhere and still nobody knew. The Aztecs and Mayans knew. You'd need something like Teotihuacan existing in C America IN EARTHDAWN TIMES while Parlainth was still in Russia to establish that they are different cities considering all the evidence that supports that they are the same. Teotihuacan is the heart of Aztlan but even the Azzies themselves are only 'allowed' to use the cite for powerful rituals on very rare occasions. Mentions in T:AL they used the power of Teotihuacan recently in using/summoning spirits to fight rebels in Yucatan and we see how toxic and corrupted and dangerous th eYucatan has become. Also states that nobody is allowed to summon near Teotihuacan. Why all the special cases in Shadowrin for this super powerful site in the heart of Aztlan? Well, as a the horror corrupted city of Parlainth, anything coming from or near that place is going to be seriously dangerous and so is like the Atomic Bomb of magic, only to be used as alast resort. Also, Charcoalgrin, THE Dragon behind Aztlan, the mysterious force that is probably more Horror than Dragon by now, the one who outmaneuvered Hualpa and drove him from his own lair has had Parlainth for her personal lair since Earthdawn times. Dragons don't liek to share, particularly Horrible Dragons. Hualpa doesn't recognize THE Dragon, or Juan, THE Dragon's puppet because he didn’t know Russian Dragons anyway, and with Parlainths Magic of No-Memory, nobody remembered them. This ties all those threads together and answers the reason for the absurd 'No-Memory' aspect of the Parlainth spell. The most obviosu answer can still be wrong, but the Aztlan Explanation clearly fits the facts and explains some mysterious E/S facts. So does Ehren being 'Wordsmyth,' or the 'Queen of the Damned' being that radical elf magician. Nowhere does it come out and say that any of those conclusions are correct, but based on the evidence, it's pretty clear what's going on. The Aztlan Explanation is just as strong as the other 'revealed' facts about E/S like Ehren being 'Wordsmyth.' Using the word 'canon' which refers to the finalized religious texts of Christianity, specificaly the Bible, to refer to the books from a meaningless RPG is really fucking anal. PS-Dragon Creation myth in 'Dragons' calls the first age the 'Age of the Dark One.' Ignoring all evidence of the world being being over a billion years old or species like dinosaurs existing millions of years ago or humans existing for hundreds of thousands of years, the 6 'Ages' makes sense. But when you compare the short magic cycles with the much longer age of the world and humanity, conflicts arise. So Age 1 is 'Dark One,' Age 2 is Dragons, Age 3 is mundane, Age 4 is Legend, 5 is Technology, Age 6 is Magic-Technology. That still bares no relation to the 12 billion years the universe has been around or the over billion of the earth, nor does it relate to the extinctions and life that existed, even human life, far longer than the twenty or so thousand years of the E/S Magic cycle. Unless the 1st age, as not part of the cycle per se, lasted for billions of years and the magic cycle began with the 2nd age of Dragons only a few thousand years ago. But humans evolved a few hundred thousand years ago which would have placed them during the 'Age of the Dark One,' so this all very vague and speculatory. I don't see enough evidence that would either place the E/S separate from paleontology, etc., that dates humans and the earth far past the rise of the cycle of magic, or that the cycles vary in length of time, that perhaps Dragons were evolved from dinosaurs in the 2nd Age of Dragons and that second age started and lasted tens of millions of years ago. Not enough to go on. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 20 2004, 12:38 AM
Post
#149
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Do you even read what I post? Even ignoring for the moment that the entire section I quoted is rumor and hearsay, lets focus on the "facts."
Something ambushes bloodwarder patrols on nights when the moon is full, ripping out their hearts and draining their blood. Sometimes a pale woman looking like Eletheria is seen on the same nights. Not beyond the means of a homicadal critter/Namegiver/Horror/Spirit/Really-Big-Mosquito and coincidence/rural legend. You could make an argument for the loup-garou's cycle, but then you wouldn't see the nice pale elf lady would you? Notice that there is no record of any of these victims rising from their graves or dissapearing mysteriously, nor of the phenomenon spreading to indicate there's more of whatever's doing it. HMHVV could easily handle a simple rip-out-the-heart trick. Besides which, we've seen zero indication of any of the powers of the Infected, because we don't know how the patrols were killed. Shite, the killings could simply be death magic to extend Eletheria's life. Maybe I'm just a tad more stringent in my guidelines, but I'm not going to make a wild or important claim until I'm positive I can back it up in canon. Even then, I always make sure it's noted as my claim. I don't even accept 100% of what Lou Prosperi says unless its in a sourcebook (all due deference to the great LP). Please re-refer yourself to the appropriate sections of the Dragons.pdf, the Vivane Boxed Set, the Aztlan Sourcebook and the Survival of the Fittest campaign. It is a matter of debate whether or not a dragon is behind AZT, but given the historical feud between feather serpents regarding blood magic in the area, the conflict between Hualpa and a Shadowy dragon in SotF, the fact that feathered serpents familiar with death magic were teaching it to local Namegivers, the vision of the corrupted dragon (along with the other comments) in the Aztlan book; I'd lay more money on a feathered serpent being behind AZT than any other type of dragon, with one exception. The major sticking point is that Teotihuacan is Parlainth and Charcoalgrin is Corrupted. I would sooner accept that Vestrivan returned from the dead like Ghostwalker and set up AZT for his own inscrutable purposes before saying that a dragon who has so far shown no interest in blood magic and no influence by the Horrors (but loves personal attention) has suddenly become the twisted mastermind half a world away. At least we know he's Horror-marked. Don't go anal when we say "canon." My ghost, it's a role-player's tradition. There are still more holes in your Theory than I'd like to discuss, mainly because you're being belligerent. I don't even want to go point by point with you on this again. It's exhausting for me, especially because of the uber-paragraph format of your posts. I will add as regards your last paragraph that I assume the dragon creation myth to be just that...a myth. With elements of truth in it perhaps, but still a myth. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 20 2004, 12:44 AM
Post
#150
|
|
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
AH, may I? :noflame:
CANON! Show me the Canon! :rollin: |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 27th December 2024 - 02:52 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.