 The Horrors and Death Magic? Answers In Earthdawn, And Who's Really Behind Aztlan-SPOILERS- |
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 Jan 25 2004, 01:29 PM
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#201
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916  |
If you look higher up the posts, someone suggested the T'skrang might gone into hibernation. I pointed out that Great Dragons and their kin were the only ones known to have hibernated during the downtime. As the T'skrang were nowhere near the level of Dragons, I found it highly unlikely they could have performed in a similar behavior as no other species seemed capable of that feat. -Siege |
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Jan 25 2004, 04:38 PM
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#202
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
The t'skrang used dragon magic to hibernate during the Scourge; it is possible they could have used a similiar magic to survive the downcycle...although the question would be "where."
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Jan 26 2004, 04:42 PM
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#203
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Target Group: Members Posts: 75 Joined: 24-August 02 Member No.: 3,168 |
There would be the slight problem that there was magic durning the scourge, but not during the downcycle. Most likely explanation is that they're some other type of creature which has yet to express.
Obviously in the 4th age T'skrang had to come from somewhere - which probably determines what happened to them. Main possibilities: 1) They 'expressed' from another species such as snakes, lizards, men, etc. 2) The were created by some being(s) such as the Dragons, Passions, etc. The whole 'magic to reproduce' thing seems to imply option 2), but it's entirely possible that the species they express from doesn't require magic to reproduce whilst the T'skrang do. So in the case of 1) being true, chances are T'skrang are still around waiting for the mana level to rise high enough to express - unless the species that they came from went extinct which is a possibility (albeit a remote one I'd say given numbers/distribution/most likely species to be T'skrang.) Main arguement against this comes from the fact that even if T'skrang have not generally expressed, I would have thought we'd have seen one or two spike babies (so to speak) somewhere in the SR universe. In the case of option 2) chances are the T'skrang died out alongside magic, unless they took another form when magic went away and/or hibernated somehow. This begs the question why some haven't awoken and/or awakened and been spotted sneaking about the SR universe. |
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Jan 26 2004, 07:58 PM
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#204
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 24-November 02 Member No.: 3,638 |
Jungle Cat appears in Dragons of the SIxth World, doesn't he? If I recall correctly he's the one who chastizes Celedyr/Stone-Diver for not having protected the Great Tree. (But, since I am as usual posting this from work, that's from memory, and I welcome correction.) |
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Jan 26 2004, 08:53 PM
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#205
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Could someone post JC's quote in DotSW, please? It might be of help.
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Jan 26 2004, 09:26 PM
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#206
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Target Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Wakefield, MA Member No.: 999 |
Wow... what an interesting thread....
I haven't been by here in months, and what do I find but a debate about ED. Even though Ancient History doesn't accept my word unless it's supported in print ( ;) ), I thought I'd share some thoughts about this. Essentially, neither theory posted by "Master Shake" is correct as far as FASA-published ED continuity is concerned. First, The female elf is most definitely NOT the first carrier of HMHVV. Was the description written so as to allow for some question about her? Maybe (honestly I don't recall), but I can tell you with 100% certainty that she was NOT intended to be the first "vampire" in ED. Second, Parlainth definitely did NOT "move to Mexico". It was shifted into astral space, but never physically moved anywhere. The similarities in architecture between Parlainth and Central American pyramids has more to do with the idea that Theran architecture was a mish-mash of that of many ancient cultures because it was the basis and inspiration for those cultures. Also, it looked cool. As far as FASA ED is concerned, there is NO connection between Parlainth and Aztlan, or between Charcoalgrin and the corrupted dragon behind Aztechnology. They're both interesting theories, but they aren't supported by the ED "canon" without some pretty wild and unsubstantiated guesswork. Take Care, Lou Prosperi Who's going back to lurking.... |
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Jan 26 2004, 09:52 PM
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#207
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
You do realize that Umsondo might be referring to the fact that Amazonia has plenty of shapeshifters, right? And that while Harlequin knows a lot of things, he might have neglected an issue or two? Why inviting a shapeshifter? I think it's because JC is Hualpa's top lieutenant, a Riker of sorts (*winks at Star Trek fans* ;)). I don't know how did you conclude that Umsondo is a magical lion. Care to explain? Note: I hadn't thought before about a "leonine partnership", but it could fit with some of the comments in DotSW and recent books.
I think you're jumping too quickly into your conclusions. The Compact looks more like an agreement made by the elves after the dramatic events in Earthdawn (i.e, Blood Wood). The elves were/are sharply dividived, but at least they manage to maintain a cold politeness between the factions (the two Towers -err... Tirs). Jungle Cat is not an elf so he has nothing to do with that issue, so why should he sign it? @ Ancient History: Could it be possible that the Compact is an truce between elves and dragons?
Jungle Cat despises Hecate because maybe she's done Horror-like deeds (Alachia & the Blood Wood), or she represents an equally hated foe (Sheila Blatavska & the Atlantean Foundation/Therans). You see, Aina is not the only candidate for Hecate's true ID. Personally, I think it doesn't sound like the paranoid, the-end-is-near doomsayer looking for help from Worlds Without End, but she's certainly arrogant like Alachia, who knows Brane Deigh well enough to mock her in public without further problem. Can't say much about Hecate being Blatavska, at least until I get my hand on a copy of Threats. I do know that Lone Gunman identified her as Hecate in that book (but since Lone Gunman is such a conspiracy theorist, who knows?). On the other hand, Blatavska might be a Spike Baby, and we know Brane Deigh is relatively young IE (i.e, wasn't born in the Fourth World). Jungle Cat doesn't need to be from the Fourth World to be annoyed by them (but it still makes you wonder how old is he, and if it is possible for a shapeshifter to exist before the Awakening).
Once again, he doesn't need to be the top dog in Amazonia to know all that. Amazonian blood magic is life magic (Great Ghost Dance style), while Aztlaner BM is death magic. That's one honking big difference. One last question: Why would Hualpa take the Jungle Cat nickname? As far as we know, all the Powers that Be in SR use meaningful aliases (Wordsmyth, Big D, Laughing Man, Orange Queen, Ghost in the Machine, etc). Why then, would Hualpa pick JC? BTW: It would have made more sense for him to be called Jungle Chicken, as Hualpa means "chicken" in a pre-Columbian language (Inca, I think). :P :silly: |
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Jan 26 2004, 10:00 PM
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#208
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 24-November 02 Member No.: 3,638 |
I find the truce between elves and dragons to be likely. They fought towards the end of the fourth world, the dragons won, but some kind of truce had to have been made, since some of the IEs who went up against the dragons are still running around. Remember that (according to WWE, anyway) Aina was the only IE to side with the dragons.
Do we really know that she wasn't born in the forth world? She's relatively young, no question, but her conversation with Wordsmyth in PoaD left me fairly convinced that she had at least lived through the confrontation between IEs and Dragons, so I thought she was born really late fourth world. |
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Jan 26 2004, 10:02 PM
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#209
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
The Man himself hath spoken. :eek:
Well, that pretty much settles this thread's topic, right? |
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Jan 26 2004, 10:08 PM
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#210
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
She doesn't have first-hand knowledge of the horrors and, according to WWE, Alachia keeps her in the dark when it comes to some issues ("Let me tell you what really happenned..."). |
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Jan 26 2004, 10:11 PM
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#211
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Melbourne Member No.: 652 |
:)
Just because MM walked away from the idea doesn't mean you can't do it in your own game. Besides I have this image of a great horror who gets himself stuck in Parlainth when it returns to the astral pocket. Unable to get out it sends it's thoughts roaming until it finds a mayan priest sleeping in a cave. It inspires the priest with all these images of "a city of the gods", all these new rituals involving sacrifice etc, in the hopes that the Mayans can generate enough blood magic to free it. Of course it fails, the mayan culture collapses and the city of the gods is virtually abandoned. Then comes the GGD, and the horror now realises that his plan may work with the mana level now being much higher due to the spike, so it goes looking for a new high priest and starts again. Just a thought. |
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Jan 26 2004, 10:29 PM
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#212
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Also note that he mentioned Thera as the source of later cultures like the Egyptian, Mayan, etc. That fits with Ehran's speech to the YETs ("Humans and the Cycle of Magic", available at FanPro's website). |
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Jan 26 2004, 10:35 PM
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#213
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500 |
Who said jc is a shape shifter?What if it is a free spirit...One on the scale of the spirit of Denver?JC could be the spirit of the Amazon?That would give him a lot of mojo.
And UM could be a wolf,montian lion, or another spirit. I mean,if I went around and called myself Sol,that doesn't make me the sun.JC, could be a shaman of some cat totem,for all the evidence I have seen. The pryamid were built in logical ways.The way ,and form.Take this, what is the easiest form to make?Then, what form is easiest to remodel.They are the same.You have natives who build temples,in the easiest way to get the largest,and tallest buildings,with proof that some of these building were built,then added on too. |
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Jan 26 2004, 11:29 PM
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#214
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 24-November 02 Member No.: 3,638 |
Right, so it would still make sense if she was born about as far post-Scourge as is possible, and still be Fourth world. |
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Jan 27 2004, 12:11 AM
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#215
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,007 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Care to explain to me how the Great Ghost Dance is anything but death magic? ~J |
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Jan 27 2004, 01:21 AM
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#216
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Death magic gains power expressly from the act of killing, whether the victims are willing or not whereas the Great Ghost Dance was magic on such a massive scale people were killed by participating willingly.
They were incidentals or collateral damage, depending on your point of view. Just my two bits. -Siege |
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Jan 27 2004, 01:58 AM
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#217
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Mr. Prosperi...love your stuff. You know I do. I just have to draw a line on what goes into the site.
JongWK: an agreement between the IEs and the GDs has been hinted at in several places, most notably "Worlds WIthout End" and "Portfolio of a Dragon" (Ehran's chit-chat with Lady of the Court). Kagetenshi: Technically speaking, the Great Ghost Dance was ritual life magic. It was a ritual spell requiring the willing sacrifice of the casters. The Azzie equivalent would require massive unwilling sacrifices (case in point: the ritual at the end of the Dragonheart Trilogy). |
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Jan 27 2004, 04:21 AM
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#218
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 23-December 03 Member No.: 5,929 |
fasalou! i drown in my tears. i'd also like to point out to those who may not know: the previous quote about the "example of a vampire" from the earthdawn developer was from someone at LRG. NOT FASA. unless i misremember. i have personally viewed anything produced at LRG as NOT CANON in regards to earthdawn material, no more so than i would pass my own fiction off as canon for ED. many people have openly scathed LRG for their work on earthdawn, and though i personally applaud their efforts, i cannot say that i, again personally, care much for their results. i hope redbrick does indeed make some headway with the more classic approach. must go to sleep, see you all after i get internet serivice again. keep cranking out the crossover debates! |
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Jan 27 2004, 05:25 PM
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#219
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Target Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Wakefield, MA Member No.: 999 |
Actually, that example *was* in the FASA version of the Earthdawn Companion as well, but it's something I wish was never included. It worked well as an example, but it also implied that there are vampires in ED, which is NOT true (or at least wasn't true when FASA published the game). Given the dangerous nature of Blood Magic, vampires should be truly frightening in ED and would deserve special attention. SPOILER WARNING On an unrelated note, I saw some discussion about the true identity of Hecate. Though this may have changed at some point after I left FASA, when she was first introduced, the intention was that Hecate (and possibly Sheila Blats(whatever)) was Alachia. I know there are some spots in some books (most notably Tir Tairngire I think) that suggest that this is not the case, but that was the original idea. Take Care, Lou Prosperi Who is going back to lurking... and this time I mean it! |
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Jan 27 2004, 05:38 PM
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#220
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Whoa. Solid answers. Weird.
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Jan 27 2004, 06:48 PM
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#221
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Strange. Vindication from above [re Hecate]. Apparently it was obvious after all. (It just couldn't be seen for the trees.)
I may faint. |
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Jan 27 2004, 06:58 PM
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#222
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 24-November 02 Member No.: 3,638 |
This is the line that made me believe that Lady Deigh was a late fourth worlder, and it's more ambiguous than I had remembered:
I had assumed that the "we" was Wordsmyth and Lady, and indeed it's possible, but it also could mean Ehran and Dunkie. (That's from Portfolio of a Dragon, by the by.) Also, for those who wanted to know what Jungle Cat had to say in Dragons of the Sixth World:
And, woah regarding information about Hecate and Sheila... meep. |
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Jan 27 2004, 08:29 PM
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#223
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Sheesh, straight from the horse's mouth! :D Alachia = Hecate = Sheila Blatavska? Talk about twisted... It also gives new light on the AF, doesn't it? [EDIT] Mr.Prosperi, would it be too much to ask who the heck is Jungle Cat? [/EDIT] This post has been edited by JongWK: Jan 27 2004, 08:34 PM |
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Jan 27 2004, 08:43 PM
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#224
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,757 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
Never read Threats, I suppose ? |
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Jan 27 2004, 09:11 PM
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#225
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Right on that one, Nath. I'd love to get my hands on the Threats series, but until I get a better-paid job or my group starts buying their own books (yeah, I'm still hooking them with SR :evil: ), I have to be picky. SoE leads my list... it will come out one day, I swear it! ;) That being said, I was under the impression that the AF was a front for Sheila Blatavska the Spike Baby and people who wanted Thera back. That Blatavska is in fact Alachia is one big surprise. On the other hand, Lone Gunman identifying Hecate as Blatavska makes more sense, right? |
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