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> The Horrors and Death Magic? Answers In Earthdawn, And Who's Really Behind Aztlan-SPOILERS-
Siege
post Jan 25 2004, 01:29 PM
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QUOTE (Trickster)
QUOTE (Siege)
I don't think the T'skrang are big enough (cool enough) to actually hibernate during the downturn in mana cycles.

Who said anything about them hibernating?

If you look higher up the posts, someone suggested the T'skrang might gone into hibernation.

I pointed out that Great Dragons and their kin were the only ones known to have hibernated during the downtime. As the T'skrang were nowhere near the level of Dragons, I found it highly unlikely they could have performed in a similar behavior as no other species seemed capable of that feat.

-Siege
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Ancient History
post Jan 25 2004, 04:38 PM
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The t'skrang used dragon magic to hibernate during the Scourge; it is possible they could have used a similiar magic to survive the downcycle...although the question would be "where."
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Prototype
post Jan 26 2004, 04:42 PM
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There would be the slight problem that there was magic durning the scourge, but not during the downcycle. Most likely explanation is that they're some other type of creature which has yet to express.

Obviously in the 4th age T'skrang had to come from somewhere - which probably determines what happened to them. Main possibilities:

1) They 'expressed' from another species such as snakes, lizards, men, etc.

2) The were created by some being(s) such as the Dragons, Passions, etc.

The whole 'magic to reproduce' thing seems to imply option 2), but it's entirely possible that the species they express from doesn't require magic to reproduce whilst the T'skrang do.

So in the case of 1) being true, chances are T'skrang are still around waiting for the mana level to rise high enough to express - unless the species that they came from went extinct which is a possibility (albeit a remote one I'd say given numbers/distribution/most likely species to be T'skrang.) Main arguement against this comes from the fact that even if T'skrang have not generally expressed, I would have thought we'd have seen one or two spike babies (so to speak) somewhere in the SR universe.

In the case of option 2) chances are the T'skrang died out alongside magic, unless they took another form when magic went away and/or hibernated somehow. This begs the question why some haven't awoken and/or awakened and been spotted sneaking about the SR universe.
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Senchae
post Jan 26 2004, 07:58 PM
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QUOTE (Euiscerati)
FASA really hasn't gone out of their way to develop this since JC or UMSONDO appear in no other Shadowrun books as far as I know.

Jungle Cat appears in Dragons of the SIxth World, doesn't he? If I recall correctly he's the one who chastizes Celedyr/Stone-Diver for not having protected the Great Tree. (But, since I am as usual posting this from work, that's from memory, and I welcome correction.)
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JongWK
post Jan 26 2004, 08:53 PM
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Could someone post JC's quote in DotSW, please? It might be of help.
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LouP
post Jan 26 2004, 09:26 PM
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Wow... what an interesting thread....

I haven't been by here in months, and what do I find but a debate about ED.

Even though Ancient History doesn't accept my word unless it's supported in print ( ;) ), I thought I'd share some thoughts about this.

Essentially, neither theory posted by "Master Shake" is correct as far as FASA-published ED continuity is concerned.

First, The female elf is most definitely NOT the first carrier of HMHVV. Was the description written so as to allow for some question about her? Maybe (honestly I don't recall), but I can tell you with 100% certainty that she was NOT intended to be the first "vampire" in ED.

Second, Parlainth definitely did NOT "move to Mexico". It was shifted into astral space, but never physically moved anywhere. The similarities in architecture between Parlainth and Central American pyramids has more to do with the idea that Theran architecture was a mish-mash of that of many ancient cultures because it was the basis and inspiration for those cultures. Also, it looked cool.

As far as FASA ED is concerned, there is NO connection between Parlainth and Aztlan, or between Charcoalgrin and the corrupted dragon behind Aztechnology.

They're both interesting theories, but they aren't supported by the ED "canon" without some pretty wild and unsubstantiated guesswork.

Take Care,

Lou Prosperi
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JongWK
post Jan 26 2004, 09:52 PM
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QUOTE
Page 130 of Aztlan:
'...or a fragging Awakened Jaguar looking for lunch.'

Hecate- What is an Awakened Jaguar?
Jungle Cat- That would be me.
Laughing Man - <chuckle>
UMSONDO- And he is hardly alone
Laughing man- Ah, our leonine friends. Perhaps I should take a closer interest in such matters.
UMSONDO- Perhaps you should.

Jungle Cat is clearly making a joke which is why Harlequin laughs. They're referring to a post about the dangers of the southern Amazonian border. What our 'leonine friends' refers to is mysterious though it's clear from the tone that's it's probably meant tongue-in-cheek because it begins with a joke. Unless Umsondo is a magical lion and Jungle Cat is a magical jaguar which doesn't make any sense. Dunkelzahn is bringing together the heavy hitters to discuss the dangers of the Horrors and Aztlan. He's brought top players from various groups, so why would he invite some shape shifters to share these dark secrets? Jungle Cat is clearly high in the structure of Amazonia. Hualpa is the head of Amazonia and so it makes sense that when bringing together Amazonia, that Dunkie would invite Hualpa. Why would he invite someone lesser and not Hualpa? Iit makes sense that it would be Hualpa.


You do realize that Umsondo might be referring to the fact that Amazonia has plenty of shapeshifters, right? And that while Harlequin knows a lot of things, he might have neglected an issue or two?

Why inviting a shapeshifter? I think it's because JC is Hualpa's top lieutenant, a Riker of sorts (*winks at Star Trek fans* ;)).

I don't know how did you conclude that Umsondo is a magical lion. Care to explain?

Note: I hadn't thought before about a "leonine partnership", but it could fit with some of the comments in DotSW and recent books.


QUOTE
On page 172, Laughing Man mentions 'the Compact! ?The Grand Deal! The "If We Don't Stop Yelling At Each Other We'll All Be Dead" Agreement!' Then Jungle Cat Says 'I never signed it.' Then UMSONDO says 'Nor did I.' Then Harlequin says 'No one ever needed you to, Watcher (UMSONDO).' This is in response to Hecate (Aina) getting bitchy and calling the worriers cowards and Jungle cat gets all upset at Hecate and says 'Bitch, she has no right to be speaking with us.' 'Us?' Clearly this is an elite group of immortals who're all aware of the Horrors from before and agreed to fight them, though Jungle Cat and UMSONDO didn't sign but are outsiders. Perhaps because the 'Compact' was Barsaive regional and UMSONDO and Jungle Cat were elsewhere. It's clear that these players are all equals, they're not just some shape shifter who changed and found themselves in the highest circles of dark secrets.


I think you're jumping too quickly into your conclusions. The Compact looks more like an agreement made by the elves after the dramatic events in Earthdawn (i.e, Blood Wood). The elves were/are sharply dividived, but at least they manage to maintain a cold politeness between the factions (the two Towers -err... Tirs). Jungle Cat is not an elf so he has nothing to do with that issue, so why should he sign it?

@ Ancient History: Could it be possible that the Compact is an truce between elves and dragons?


QUOTE
Hecate being Aina also makes sense because of her Horror confections and apathy and Dunkelzahn goes out of his way to reach out to her in his will. So it would make sense that she is Hecate, whom Dunkelzahn reaches out to in Aztlan and she is arrogant and dismissive and needs the hope he offers her in his will.


Jungle Cat despises Hecate because maybe she's done Horror-like deeds (Alachia & the Blood Wood), or she represents an equally hated foe (Sheila Blatavska & the Atlantean Foundation/Therans). You see, Aina is not the only candidate for Hecate's true ID. Personally, I think it doesn't sound like the paranoid, the-end-is-near doomsayer looking for help from Worlds Without End, but she's certainly arrogant like Alachia, who knows Brane Deigh well enough to mock her in public without further problem.

Can't say much about Hecate being Blatavska, at least until I get my hand on a copy of Threats. I do know that Lone Gunman identified her as Hecate in that book (but since Lone Gunman is such a conspiracy theorist, who knows?).

On the other hand, Blatavska might be a Spike Baby, and we know Brane Deigh is relatively young IE (i.e, wasn't born in the Fourth World). Jungle Cat doesn't need to be from the Fourth World to be annoyed by them (but it still makes you wonder how old is he, and if it is possible for a shapeshifter to exist before the Awakening).


QUOTE
He's an old power who's clearly at the top of Amazonia and he knows about the Amazonian Locus and mentions their rituals not being those Great Rituals (forbidden? dangerous?) on page 114. He knows about the Blood Magic Amazonians are using to fuel their nation and the ancient rituals and gets upset when Laughing Man takes a shot of his use of blood magic on page  23:


Once again, he doesn't need to be the top dog in Amazonia to know all that. Amazonian blood magic is life magic (Great Ghost Dance style), while Aztlaner BM is death magic. That's one honking big difference.


One last question: Why would Hualpa take the Jungle Cat nickname? As far as we know, all the Powers that Be in SR use meaningful aliases (Wordsmyth, Big D, Laughing Man, Orange Queen, Ghost in the Machine, etc). Why then, would Hualpa pick JC?

BTW: It would have made more sense for him to be called Jungle Chicken, as Hualpa means "chicken" in a pre-Columbian language (Inca, I think). :P :silly:
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Senchae
post Jan 26 2004, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE (JongWK)
@ Ancient History: Could it be possible that the Compact is an truce between elves and dragons?


I find the truce between elves and dragons to be likely. They fought towards the end of the fourth world, the dragons won, but some kind of truce had to have been made, since some of the IEs who went up against the dragons are still running around. Remember that (according to WWE, anyway) Aina was the only IE to side with the dragons.

QUOTE (JongWK)
On the other hand, Blatavska might be a Spike Baby, and we know Brane Deigh is relatively young IE (i.e, wasn't born in the Fourth World).


Do we really know that she wasn't born in the forth world? She's relatively young, no question, but her conversation with Wordsmyth in PoaD left me fairly convinced that she had at least lived through the confrontation between IEs and Dragons, so I thought she was born really late fourth world.
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JongWK
post Jan 26 2004, 10:02 PM
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The Man himself hath spoken. :eek:

QUOTE
Essentially, neither theory posted by "Master Shake" is correct as far as FASA-published ED continuity is concerned.


Well, that pretty much settles this thread's topic, right?
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JongWK
post Jan 26 2004, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE (Senchae)
Do we really know that she wasn't born in the forth world? She's relatively young, no question, but her conversation with Wordsmyth in PoaD left me fairly convinced that she had at least lived through the confrontation between IEs and Dragons, so I thought she was born really late fourth world.

She doesn't have first-hand knowledge of the horrors and, according to WWE, Alachia keeps her in the dark when it comes to some issues ("Let me tell you what really happenned...").
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annachie
post Jan 26 2004, 10:11 PM
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QUOTE (LouP)
Wow... what an interesting thread....


Second, Parlainth definitely did NOT "move to Mexico". It was shifted into astral space, but never physically moved anywhere. The similarities in architecture between Parlainth and Central American pyramids has more to do with the idea that Theran architecture was a mish-mash of that of many ancient cultures because it was the basis and inspiration for those cultures. Also, it looked cool.


QUOTE (Annachie)

Reason 1. The author thinks C-American architecture is cool.
Reason 2. The artist .....
Reason 3. The editor .....


:)

QUOTE

As far as FASA ED is concerned, there is NO connection between Parlainth and Aztlan, or between Charcoalgrin and the corrupted dragon behind Aztechnology.


Just because MM walked away from the idea doesn't mean you can't do it in your own game.


Besides I have this image of a great horror who gets himself stuck in Parlainth when it returns to the astral pocket. Unable to get out it sends it's thoughts roaming until it finds a mayan priest sleeping in a cave. It inspires the priest with all these images of "a city of the gods", all these new rituals involving sacrifice etc, in the hopes that the Mayans can generate enough blood magic to free it. Of course it fails, the mayan culture collapses and the city of the gods is virtually abandoned.
Then comes the GGD, and the horror now realises that his plan may work with the mana level now being much higher due to the spike, so it goes looking for a new high priest and starts again.

Just a thought.
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JongWK
post Jan 26 2004, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE (annachie)
QUOTE (LouP)
Wow... what an interesting thread....


Second, Parlainth definitely did NOT "move to Mexico". It was shifted into astral space, but never physically moved anywhere. The similarities in architecture between Parlainth and Central American pyramids has more to do with the idea that Theran architecture was a mish-mash of that of many ancient cultures because it was the basis and inspiration for those cultures. Also, it looked cool.


QUOTE (Annachie)

Reason 1. The author thinks C-American architecture is cool.
Reason 2. The artist .....
Reason 3. The editor .....


:)

Also note that he mentioned Thera as the source of later cultures like the Egyptian, Mayan, etc. That fits with Ehran's speech to the YETs ("Humans and the Cycle of Magic", available at FanPro's website).
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Playing Games
post Jan 26 2004, 10:35 PM
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Who said jc is a shape shifter?What if it is a free spirit...One on the scale of the spirit of Denver?JC could be the spirit of the Amazon?That would give him a lot of mojo.


And UM could be a wolf,montian lion, or another spirit.

I mean,if I went around and called myself Sol,that doesn't make me the sun.JC, could be a shaman of some cat totem,for all the evidence I have seen.

The pryamid were built in logical ways.The way ,and form.Take this, what is the easiest form to make?Then, what form is easiest to remodel.They are the same.You have natives who build temples,in the easiest way to get the largest,and tallest buildings,with proof that some of these building were built,then added on too.
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Senchae
post Jan 26 2004, 11:29 PM
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QUOTE (JongWK)
She doesn't have first-hand knowledge of the horrors and, according to WWE, Alachia keeps her in the dark when it comes to some issues ("Let me tell you what really happenned...").

Right, so it would still make sense if she was born about as far post-Scourge as is possible, and still be Fourth world.
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 27 2004, 12:11 AM
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QUOTE (JongWK)
Amazonian blood magic is life magic (Great Ghost Dance style), while Aztlaner BM is death magic. That's one honking big difference.

Care to explain to me how the Great Ghost Dance is anything but death magic?

~J
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Siege
post Jan 27 2004, 01:21 AM
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Death magic gains power expressly from the act of killing, whether the victims are willing or not whereas the Great Ghost Dance was magic on such a massive scale people were killed by participating willingly.

They were incidentals or collateral damage, depending on your point of view.

Just my two bits.

-Siege
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Ancient History
post Jan 27 2004, 01:58 AM
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Mr. Prosperi...love your stuff. You know I do. I just have to draw a line on what goes into the site.

JongWK: an agreement between the IEs and the GDs has been hinted at in several places, most notably "Worlds WIthout End" and "Portfolio of a Dragon" (Ehran's chit-chat with Lady of the Court).

Kagetenshi: Technically speaking, the Great Ghost Dance was ritual life magic. It was a ritual spell requiring the willing sacrifice of the casters. The Azzie equivalent would require massive unwilling sacrifices (case in point: the ritual at the end of the Dragonheart Trilogy).
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northern lights
post Jan 27 2004, 04:21 AM
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QUOTE
Take Care,

Lou Prosperi
Who's going back to lurking....

fasalou! i drown in my tears.

i'd also like to point out to those who may not know:

the previous quote about the "example of a vampire" from the earthdawn developer was from someone at LRG. NOT FASA. unless i misremember.

i have personally viewed anything produced at LRG as NOT CANON in regards to earthdawn material, no more so than i would pass my own fiction off as canon for ED. many people have openly scathed LRG for their work on earthdawn, and though i personally applaud their efforts, i cannot say that i, again personally, care much for their results. i hope redbrick does indeed make some headway with the more classic approach.

must go to sleep, see you all after i get internet serivice again. keep cranking out the crossover debates!
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LouP
post Jan 27 2004, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (northern lights)

i'd also like to point out to those who may not know:

the previous quote about the "example of a vampire" from the earthdawn developer was from someone at LRG. NOT FASA. unless i misremember.


Actually, that example *was* in the FASA version of the Earthdawn Companion as well, but it's something I wish was never included. It worked well as an example, but it also implied that there are vampires in ED, which is NOT true (or at least wasn't true when FASA published the game). Given the dangerous nature of Blood Magic, vampires should be truly frightening in ED and would deserve special attention.

SPOILER WARNING





On an unrelated note, I saw some discussion about the true identity of Hecate. Though this may have changed at some point after I left FASA, when she was first introduced, the intention was that Hecate (and possibly Sheila Blats(whatever)) was Alachia. I know there are some spots in some books (most notably Tir Tairngire I think) that suggest that this is not the case, but that was the original idea.


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi
Who is going back to lurking... and this time I mean it!
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Req
post Jan 27 2004, 05:38 PM
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Whoa. Solid answers. Weird.
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Talia Invierno
post Jan 27 2004, 06:48 PM
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Strange. Vindication from above [re Hecate]. Apparently it was obvious after all. (It just couldn't be seen for the trees.)

I may faint.
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Senchae
post Jan 27 2004, 06:58 PM
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This is the line that made me believe that Lady Deigh was a late fourth worlder, and it's more ambiguous than I had remembered:
QUOTE
"To be honest, when we were last together I sided against our late friend
with great reluctance."  - Wordsmyth to Lady of the Court

I had assumed that the "we" was Wordsmyth and Lady, and indeed it's possible, but it also could mean Ehran and Dunkie. (That's from Portfolio of a Dragon, by the by.)

Also, for those who wanted to know what Jungle Cat had to say in Dragons of the Sixth World:
QUOTE
"It is a message to one who was entrusted with great responsibility and
abandoned it in the hour of need. Those who now tend to the remains of the
Great Tree will not be so negligant."  - Jungle Cat

"Root Protector and I did all that we could, and we made our own choices.
I didn't see you there helping out." - Script-Diver

"Enough. It will not happen again. Far Scholar has appointed a new
steward, and we can only hope that the failures of some do not haunt us
all." - Glitterfrost

"The past is past. I stand by my actions." - Script-Diver


And, woah regarding information about Hecate and Sheila... meep.
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JongWK
post Jan 27 2004, 08:29 PM
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QUOTE (LouP)
On an unrelated note, I saw some discussion about the true identity of Hecate. Though this may have changed at some point after I left FASA, when she was first introduced, the intention was that Hecate (and possibly Sheila Blats(whatever)) was Alachia. I know there are some spots in some books (most notably Tir Tairngire I think) that suggest that this is not the case, but that was the original idea.


Sheesh, straight from the horse's mouth! :D

Alachia = Hecate = Sheila Blatavska? Talk about twisted...

It also gives new light on the AF, doesn't it?

[EDIT]
Mr.Prosperi, would it be too much to ask who the heck is Jungle Cat?
[/EDIT]

This post has been edited by JongWK: Jan 27 2004, 08:34 PM
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Nath
post Jan 27 2004, 08:43 PM
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QUOTE (JongWK)
Alachia = Hecate = Sheila Blatavska? Talk about twisted...

It also gives new light on the AF, doesn't it?

Never read Threats, I suppose ?
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JongWK
post Jan 27 2004, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (Nath)
QUOTE (Nath)
Never read Threats, I suppose ?

Right on that one, Nath. I'd love to get my hands on the Threats series, but until I get a better-paid job or my group starts buying their own books (yeah, I'm still hooking them with SR :evil: ), I have to be picky. SoE leads my list... it will come out one day, I swear it! ;)

That being said, I was under the impression that the AF was a front for Sheila Blatavska the Spike Baby and people who wanted Thera back.

That Blatavska is in fact Alachia is one big surprise. On the other hand, Lone Gunman identifying Hecate as Blatavska makes more sense, right?

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