The Horrors and Death Magic? Answers In Earthdawn

The Horrors and Death Magic? Answers In Earthdawn, And Who's Really Behind Aztlan-SPOILERS-

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 01:31 PM Post #276
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	As ugly as the discussion has already turned, is this degree of flaming quite necessary? ~J

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 01:35 PM Post #277
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	No. But other ways of relieving myself of the pressures that built up inside after reading Master Shake's latest message would have been even more nasty.

annachie

Jan 30 2004, 01:57 PM

Post #278

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Ancient History)

Okay, point by point:

QUOTE

Even through I have not had the chance to read the Parlainth boxed set, what I have seen of Parlainth (notably the color plates in the 1st Ed sourcebook) reminded me very much of Central American architecture as well, and this was before I knew of the Earthdawn/Shadowrun connection.

Parlainth is a mish-mash of architectural styles, and it would be ridiculous to try and count what was derived from which culture. Let's just say until I see maps of Teotihuacan that match the ones in the Parlainth book, I'm not convinced.

Lou answered this one, basically saying that choosing mesoamerican style architecture was not part of some over all grand plan

QUOTE

Yes, pyramids do occur throughout the world (not just Egypt and Central America). However, the style of the pyramids in the Americas (including how they were built) is very distinct. I doubt many would confuse the pyramids in Central America with those of Egypt, India, South East Asia, or Samaria and Babylonia (though Sumerian and Babylonian might be the most similar).

You'd be surprised, but I'll give you this one as the pictures in the ED 1st edition Main book are easily taken for Mesoamerican at a glance.

There are 2 or 3 styles of pyramids in the America's, one of which is similar to a chinese style. (Although it is hard to be sure given it's condition. It's in Peru)

QUOTE

1) No lost city or ruins even remotely similar to Parlainth have been found in Russia let alone any in that area. Thus Parlainth must have moved sometime between the time frame Earthdawn takes place, and the recorded history of the region in the 5th age.

Lack of proof does not constitute proof. There are any number of ED cities which have yet to be located, not just the one that made a little jaunt into the metaplanes. Pluss, let us refer to the area as the Ukraine, and not RUssia proper, hmm? We're not talking the oniondomes of Moscow here.

Hell, there's a number of real life cities that are yet to make an appearance.

QUOTE

2) Target: Awakened Lands (a book I have not yet read either, so I am going by what Shake has written) states that Teotihuacán was found whole and abandoned by the early Aztecs. I do not know if this matches real life legend, but I think I remember hearing something similar. Teotihuacán is the only city explicitly stated in any Shadorun sources books thus far said to have been found whole and intact by its initial inhabitants.

THis is from real life, nobody knows for sure who built Teotihuacan, though the Toltecs are favored. As for the latter sentance, go re-read the citadel discovered in Australia earlier in the book.

Scientists exploring Teotihuacan currently peg the city at about 2700 years old, according to carbon dating. I actually thought that the Mayans where favoured to have built it.

QUOTE

Parlainth is known to have moved once before and, as of the Eathdawn timeframe, still pretty much abandoned. Again, since there are no records of the city or city like it existing in that area, it must have either been raised to the ground or moved.

The city originally slipped into a small metaplane or large astral pocket, and never moved "physically." It came back right where it used to. There IS precedent for a moving city, but Parlainth ain't it.

Having moved once, if it moved again it would be back to where it was the first time. A physical move would require a different spell, or some major event/calamity to occur corrupting the original spell

QUOTE

3) The Aztecs practice a form of blood and death magic that should not be known by anyone else in the 5th or 6th worlds. In addition, the Aztecs of the 6th world are supposed to be performing certain forms of draconic magic that is very beneficial to the Horrors. The question arises of how they got that information (Of course I could get all Joseph Campbell and explain how animal and human sacrifice appears in all early agricultural religions and that those of the Aztecs are just another variation on that theme, but that might be injecting a bit too much reality and sensibility into the Shadowrun world).

In the foundations of the temple of the sun are at least 4 graves containing what appear to be sacrifices which, iirc, date to about the time the city was built. The ritualistic appearance of these sacrifices would indicate that the practice was well in use before the Temple was build, and therefor arguably before Teotihuacán itself was built.

Edit: Oops, sorry abput the mis-quoting. Then when I went to edit it back right last night the pc crashed. Oh well :)

This post has been edited by annachie: Jan 30 2004, 10:41 PM

Siege

Jan 30 2004, 02:28 PM

Post #279

Dragon

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

As ugly as the discussion has already turned, is this degree of flaming quite necessary?

~J

Ya know, we should refer Shake to the "creative questioning" thread.

-Siege

Thanos007

Jan 30 2004, 05:14 PM

Post #280

Moving Target

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QUOTE

This post is so full of absolute bullshit that I just don't know where to begin. MS's real reasons to write such immensely long posts is probably so that he'll seem 1337, but also that it'd be impossible to point out all the errors within. Here's one quick one though:
1) MS claims he never claimed anything he said is correct, just best.
2) MS claims everything he said was based strictly on canon.
3) MS wonders why canon doesn't make him correct.
That seems a bit odd to me...

Let's do some more.
1) MS claims everything he said was based strictly on canon.
2) MS claims everybody trusted ED/SR to be developed to the point that every facet of the world was clearly thought out before it was written down.
3) MS claims LouP is stupid and an ass and whatever else for saying that the people who trusted (ie everybody) in ED/SR are fools and "believe in the Easter Bunny".
4) MS says he never trusted ED/SR in the first place, only AH did.
5) MS says AH is a fool and "believes in the Easter Bunny".
So what does that make MS then?

You didn't site book and page numbers. :)

On another note... I grant you that MS is...hmmmm... socialy challanged but I think he has made some good points. The one I real go with him on is, that is realy disapointing that there is no real guiding thought behind E or S it all just kinda happend. Disapointing but not on the scale MS takes it too.

Wait doesn't there have to be some sort of thought behind the games? There is the meta plot(s). Which is/are obvious.

Thanos

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 05:25 PM Post #281
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Oh yes, it is unquestionable that there was thought behind the games. Thought and planning and threads cast out to be found and followed. The revelation here, and one that most people who engage in this kind of pursuit eventually find, is that the number of threads deliberately put in happens to be far smaller than the number of threads that the community has found and followed. For instance, I once wrote a story in which, because I wasn't really paying attention, all of the times referenced ended in 11 (6:11, 2:11, 12:11). With a wide enough readerbase, no doubt more than a few people would have started discussing why the times always end in 11, and probably would have come up with a few reasons that would attribute far more planning and thought to this than actually went into it. ~J

Thanos007 View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 05:28 PM Post #282
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 1-September 03 From: New York State Member No.: 5,563	Kagetenshi I think that your last post has got to one of the best in this whole thread. Thanos

Pthgar View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 05:39 PM Post #283
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642	Master Shake, please take Mike Mulvihill's advice. *Have fun. Play Shadowrun*

Req

Jan 30 2004, 05:54 PM

Post #284

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

No. But other ways of relieving myself of the pressures that built up inside after reading Master Shake's latest message would have been even more nasty.

AE, why you gotta go there? Now I'm forced to think about

QUOTE

"More than 100 Tainan city residents, mostly men, have reportedly gone to see the corpse to 'experience' the size of its penis," the newspaper reported.

and that's just wrong.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 06:34 PM Post #285
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Thanos: Thanks :) Req: What, you don't want to experience the size of its penis? I would think nearly everyone would. ~J

Req

Jan 30 2004, 06:55 PM

Post #286

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Req: What, you don't want to experience the size of its penis? I would think nearly everyone would.

God, it's just like that one time in New Orleans. :smokin:

moosegod View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 07:21 PM Post #287
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818	I have to say, that I liked Shake's basic idea. Sure, it probably isn't canon, but so what? If I ever do crossovers (which I just might) the Atlantean Foundation may just hire the runners to investigate the situation. I may even print out this thread and claim it's all Shadowtalk on the subject. But I may have to edit some of the posts.... Dammit, I'm a genius!

Kagetenshi

Jan 30 2004, 07:34 PM

Post #288

Manus Celer Dei

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QUOTE (moosegod)

But I may have to edit some of the posts....

Like the ones in which Lou steps in and states rather clearly the intentions of the writers from his perspective?

~J

moosegod View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 07:36 PM Post #289
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818	Yeah. And I'll have to do some sort of "search/replace" to cut down on the references that assualt the fourth wall. EDIT: Actually, I should ask. Does anyone mind if I do that? If you want'll change names to protect the innocent/not so innocent. Otherwise, I'll just leave your tags on. Except maybe Ancient's. Everyone knows you. I think you'll get to be someone else...

Frag-o Delux View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 07:54 PM Post #290
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316	I think you might have to trim shakes down a bit also, I don't know about your games but we usually only have 8 hours of game time.

moosegod View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 07:56 PM Post #291
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818	Well, since I didn't read most of it, as such...

Req View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 08:02 PM Post #292
Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277	I'm glad Frag-o chipped in there, we'd almost gone six posts without someone bashing on Shake. That woulda been sad. :)

Trickster View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 08:02 PM Post #293
Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Glasgow, UK Member No.: 246	Hmmm....Well after LouP's contribution, I have to say I'm disappointed but not surprised that we gave the ED/SR writers too much credit. What I am also sadly not surprised by is the line-up of boorish morons high-fiving each other with superbly articulated posts like: "MasterShake bitches" and "Master Shake moans". Shake had a pretty elegant and intriguing theory, sadly blown out the water by his faith in the fasa RPG development team. His idea was original, constructive and well thought-out, something which a few of the other contributors to this thread [and board in general] could learn from. Granted he got a bit wound-up when people disagreed with his ideas, is understandably let-down by the subsequent revelations, and probably went too far with his comments on AH, but these juvenile and ill-mannered claims of "I can't be bothered reading this stuff" or "give me the Cliff's [sic] notes" or splashing around NEWBIE claims [as if that really means anything or affects the validity of shake's opinion] leave a bad taste in the mouth. It doesn't hurt to treat your fellow posters with respect, even if you don't think they deserve it. I love ED; great game, great setting. I thought it gave SR a more epic context, but that was merely the hook. I've always been disappointed that I've never got to play in a full-fledged campaign, but I'm looking forward to the day when that finally happens.

Frag-o Delux View Member Profile	Jan 30 2004, 08:43 PM Post #294
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316	I read all his posts, hoping he would say something different, but it was basically the same thing over and over and seemed longer and longer. I never said he was wrong or his idea sucked or AH was right. The only other post in this thread that I made was that maybe he should calm down. AH apologized, but Shake seemed to have ignored AH's call for truce and continued to berate AH and the rest of the board. I was only making a joke, which I usually do, I mean nothing by it, I didn't call him any names or challenge his mental status. I guess I could have stayed out of it, but I failed my willpower check. Just like Shake and a few of the other people who have posted on this thread, I agree this is just a game, I don't care about crossovers or meta-plots, and I never gave the authors of this game any credit for filling in all the blanks, in fact they said along time ago in some of the books, they had no intensions to fill in all the blanks that was for the GM's to do themselves for their own game world.

Pistons

Jan 30 2004, 09:40 PM

Post #295

Not Cameron Diaz

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QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)

in fact they said along time ago in some of the books, they had no intensions to fill in all the blanks that was for the GM's to do themselves for their own game world.

Not to mention that, if something is "set in stone" early on, it shuts out potential cool possibilities that we might not have been able to write about later on without severe retrofitting.

Bottom line, though, is that whatever any of us have written can be used, abused, twisted or completely ignored in regard to what YOU want to do with your own campaign. If you don't want Hecate to be Alachia, then she ain't. If you don't want Dunkelzahn to have died, then let him remain President. If you want bug spirits to take over North America, have at it. It's your game.

Nath

Jan 30 2004, 09:49 PM

Post #296

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Pistons @ Jan 30 2004, 10:40 PM)

Not to mention that, if something is "set in stone" early on, it shuts out potential cool possibilities that we might not have been able to write about later on without severe retrofitting.

Bottom line, though, is that whatever any of us have written can be used, abused, twisted or completely ignored in regard to what YOU want to do with your own campaign. If you don't want Hecate to be Alachia, then she ain't. If you don't want Dunkelzahn to have died, then let him remain President. If you want bug spirits to take over North America, have at it. It's your game.

See. Shadowrun line is on the verge of bankruptcy. They no longer have the cred to maintain those cool stormtroopers squads in black armors who broke into the homes of offending GM...

L.D

Jan 30 2004, 09:57 PM

Post #297

Harlequin

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QUOTE (moosegod)

Actually, I should ask. Does anyone mind if I do that? If you want'll change names to protect the innocent/not so innocent. Otherwise, I'll just leave your tags on.

That would be very cool. Specially since L.D. is my favorite SR-character and a awesome decker. :D Not that I'm sure of how much I've actually contributed to this thread...

About MS.
He had a cool and new theory, sure. But his reaction to LouP was just over the top. Not to mention that his posts could have been summed up in a few sentences.

QUOTE (LouP)

The similarities in architecture between Parlainth and Central American pyramids has more to do with the idea that Theran architecture was a mish-mash of that of many ancient cultures because it was the basis and inspiration for those cultures.

QUOTE (Master Shake)

The art of Parlainth is very specific, very C American, and the only such artwork in the Earthdawn game line. It’s clearly another massive coincidence that this city alone was designed like the central city in Aztlan. I assumed that such important things would have a rationale behind them but that’s my own fault.

The thing is that LouP showed that there was a rationale, just not the one that MS had figured out. Well cry me a river.

annachie

Jan 30 2004, 10:55 PM

Post #298

Moving Target

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QUOTE (moosegod @ Jan 31 2004, 05:36 AM)

Actually, I should ask. Does anyone mind if I do that? If you want'll change names to protect the innocent/not so innocent. Otherwise, I'll just leave your tags on.

Are you kidding, I've always wanted to be in a shadowtalk :)

Actually, if any of the free-lancers are reading this, I've always wanted ... :D

@L.D.

Actually, the only real problem I had with MS' parlainth idea is that he took the view that the artwork is this way, so oviously this is the intent. Whereas, it should really be that the artwork is this way and that gives me a really good idea.
Any actual problems, with reality or cannon, is always a "it's my game and this is how it works" kinda thing as Pistons was saying.

Talia Invierno

Jan 30 2004, 10:59 PM

Post #299

Shooting Target

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What Trickster said, except (maybe - still undecided) the first sentence.

QUOTE

Here lies a toppled god.
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and tall one.
- Tleilaxu Epigram (Dune Messiah)

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Jan 31 2004, 12:06 AM Post #300
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	Personally, I think the theories and ideas by Master Shake that started this thread were rather interesting, and well thought out in many ways. Because I know next to nothing about ED, and quite little about SR, I can not and will not comment on exactly how much sense they make, but they certainly seemed logical enough when I first read them. Regardless of their level of "correctness", they were very usable. I did not have nor do I now have any problems with those. Like Frag-O Delux I failed my Willpower check at some point, probably Rule-of-One'd it. It just seemed like too great an opportunity to laugh at the (very silly) stuff that Master Shake was saying. The latest quote-message went too far, no excuses. The single quote "The only blanket statement that I and everyone else assumed from the beginning was that there was a brilliance behind E/S and it was worth our trouble to figure it out and get upset over." should have been enough for me to just laught it over.

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