The Horrors and Death Magic? Answers In Earthdawn

The Horrors and Death Magic? Answers In Earthdawn, And Who's Really Behind Aztlan-SPOILERS-

Senor 187 View Member Profile	Jan 31 2004, 12:48 AM Post #301
Target Group: Members Posts: 48 Joined: 12-March 03 Member No.: 4,241	The flat-topped pyramids of Latin America would be perfect landing pads for vertical take-off boulders - what if there was a submerged krial crash-landed in the mud around Technotitlan.

Siege View Member Profile	Jan 31 2004, 12:49 AM Post #302
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916	The general problem with Shake and his alter egos (or minions) falls along these lines: Whether or not you think you're right, please refrain from belittling and insulting the people who disagree. That was my biggest gripe about Doc Funk -- if you managed to prove him(?) wrong, buckle up and hang on because he was going to pound on you personally with both barrels. That's what Shake did and it painted him(?) as a juvenile twit whining, sniveling and resorting to ad hominem attacks to abuse the plantiff (old Cicero reference). -Siege

Neuron Basher View Member Profile	Jan 31 2004, 01:16 AM Post #303
The Ghost in our Machine Group: Retired Admins Posts: 166 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Unlisted Datastore Member No.: 52	This thread needs to display some redeeming qualities pretty damned quick (I know they're in there -- I saw some a couple pages back!) or it's going to get closed. The name calling, trolling, and flaming are going to stop.

moosegod View Member Profile	Jan 31 2004, 02:03 AM Post #304
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818	CLOSE IT! Oh, please, dear lord, close it. I just copied the whole thread into a text editor. With standard margins and such, it's 170 fragging pages. Hope your all happy. IN OTHER NEWS: A whole lot of you are getting major cuttage. Just so it's readable. Also, whenever I get to a Master Shake article, I just want to cry. HE TYPES SO MUCH! &*#%#

annachie View Member Profile	Jan 31 2004, 07:14 AM Post #305
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Melbourne Member No.: 652	I've been thinking about Parlainth/Teounspellable for a little while now and about what I think would need to happen for either shake's theory, or my half-assed one, that links the two to work. One thing that comes to mind is that there's about 200 years or so (I haven't bothered to check) of reasonably modern scientific exploration that needed to be controlled in some fashion. This pretty much needs a person or secret group hanging around keeping an eye on things and squashing the odd important discovery. It also seems to me that somebody would need to be keeping some sort of control of the local government. This same person or group could quite happily have been laying the foundations for Aztlan and Aztechnology, intentionally or not. (No I've never read Aztlan)

Master Shake

Jan 31 2004, 08:20 AM

Post #306

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QUOTE (Master Shake)

I have been a fan of Shadowrun since I played the video game about a decade ago though I don't play E or S, I'm just vaguely interested in this as an interesting fictional world. I do not claim to be an expert on the Earthdawn/Shadowrun Mythos but I do check out this board once in a while (is there a good E board that's active?) and I have taken a look at most of the E/S Mythos books. This is primarily in response to the ridiculously long 'beat the horrors' thread which is now up to 18 pages. The tone of that thread was that Horrors can be bombed or you can hide from them. In my brief exposure to Earthdawn and Shadowrun books, the Horrors cannot be stabbed or shut or blow’d up as long as the Great Pattern of their infinite menace exists. They will come and come and come as long as they can which is what Harlequin and Dunkelzahn say. Now, this is only a game that I don’t even play, but with 18 pages I didn't see any mention of the Earthdawn answers on how to stop the horrors, so I figured I'd help out the discussion that doesn't really matter anyway. Here are some references to stopping the Horrors that I am aware of, there certainly could be more as I only have a very basic understanding of the Earthdawn books. I haven't read any of these books cover to cover, but are just some things that stood out to me while skimming through them:

1-Adepts Way- Under the description of the Nethermancer, a mage class that focuses on metaplanes of the dead and horrors, the writer mentions that, in theory, the horrors dimension can be sealed off from the E/S world. It takes the form of an unfinished manuscript and an unfinished section titled 'On Cosmology and Other Dimensions' is unfinished but referred to in the next section. It says 'As I have described in the preceding passage, finally sealing off our dimension from the Horrors will only be possible once we have answered the 8 questions of Jsona Var. Until then, we must rely on countermeasures to fight the Horrors after they have crossed the threshold to our world.'

So forget about conquering them, but if 8 mystical questions can be answered the Horrors can be shut out forever, in high or low magic I assume.

2-Theran Empire- This is perhaps the most interesting because it ties directly with the Shadowrun novel 'Black Madonna' which I read a long time ago. In that book there is an IE named Leonardo (da Vinci) who is also referred to as Brightlight in some other S source books like Aztlan where he appears in the D-IE discussion and someone mentions him in passing during talk of an AI owning Aztechnology. Leonardo is a follower of the Egyptian goddess Isis and is focused on 'the great work.' In the Theran Empire book, Egypt was once called Creana and central to the Creana gods and goddesses (Ureth, the Creana 'Great Mother' would be Isis) was the 'Great Work.' Which is to connect the magical pattern of Creana with the magical pattern of the 'lands of the west' (don't the Tir na Nog Elves talk about 'lands of the west?') by building monuments and magical structures to bind the two dimensions/patterns together. If this occurs, Creana will be transformed into a paradise as the 'lands of the west' are a metaplane (?) that would be called Heaven or Paradise where the good dead go. The cycle of death and rebirth will end and the heavens and earth will be one. All suffering and fear will disappear as all people will be rules by the Pharon God-King as a part of the strict hierarchy on Heaven/Earth.

That was the 'Great Work' Leonardo was working on in Black Madonna, but I think Leonardo gets captured by Lofwyr after Dunkelzahn dies in the 'Blood in the Boardroom' source book. So, theoretically in the E/S Mythos, by combining the true patterns, or true magical essence or souls of the Earth and Heaven, the earth would transcend to a perfect state of existence untouchable by the Horrors. I guess there needs to be magical obelisks and pyramids and monuments to mystically draw the true pattern of the earth and heaven together. Controlling ley lines, power sites with giant pyramids and establishing a Creana-style Heavenly Hierarchy across the globe with a Pharon God-King in his own home base on the Nile. I guess Lofwyr didn't like that idea too much.

3-Earthdawn Companion- This is where you find the primary metaphysical foundation to beating the Horrors. The Lightbearers are a secret organization directly opposed to the Horrors. Lightbearers draw power from 'The Great Pattern' which is a largely mysterious force. The major explanation is that the Great Pattern is the true Pattern or magical essence or soul of the world (universe?). The Great Pattern gives its followers powers to confront and destroy the Horrors so the Great Pattern is directly opposed to the Horrors. The Great Pattern is opposed to the Great Horror Pattern or whatever the overall mystical force of exploitation that the Horrors represent. Yin and Yang. To serve the Great Pattern you must foreswear blood magic (there is a difference between 'amoral' blood magic and 'evil' death magic) for anything but oaths and lightbearer stuff and you must strive to fight the horrors and 'bring light,' yada yada yada. Some of the powers of followers of the Great Pattern including joining your pattern or soul with the great pattern on death or transferring your soul through the great pattern to another lightbearer to give them your experience. They can heal and transfer karma/magical quanta to each other, avoid and defeat horror magics and all the other good guy stuff you'd expect.

So followers of the Great Pattern gain powers to counter Horrors not from a shear force level, but from a metaphysical countering. Nowhere does it seem like Horrors can be killed with swords or guns, even the Lightbearer powers are usefully only tactically, not strategically to stop the Horrors all together. In the E/S Mythos there seem to be two main forces, the Great Pattern of the world/universe and the Unmaking/exploiting Pattern of Horror. If the 8 questions of Jsona Var were answered or the Great Work Completed, it would mean empowering The Great Pattern to withstand or negate the Horror Pattern and the Horrors.

4-Blood Wood- The Elves of the Blood Wood managed to avoid the Horros by corrupting themselves and inflicting so much pain to themselves collectively, that the Horrors were less interested in them because Horrors want to cause pain and if you take that away from them they are less likely to attack.

So a massive ritual to corrupt metahumans to permanent suffering would make the Horrors less interested but if everyone did that, there wouldn't be easier prey for the Horrors to go after so they woudl still end up going after the corrupted. And the Wood Elves still needed to build magical protections that some Horrors still tried to attack. The Blood Wood book is more interesting for its non-specific but obvious reference to the first Vampire or HMHVV victim, a female elf who disappeared during the Horror rampages and returned later as a super strong blood sucking night walker. There’s your Queen of the Damned.

Here is something else that is somewhat related. Aztlan are the ones pushing the Horrors through death magic. Blood magic in Earthdawn is just using blood to power magical charms or oaths, while death magic was using human sacrifices to power magic. It's called blood magic in Shadowrun, but it's really death magic, not blood magic as it is in Earthdawn. Three things about Aztechnology and Aztlan that I've never seen mentioned anywhere but seem obvious to me.

1-Azzies got their magic from Parlainth. When I first saw the Earthdawn main rule book I was somewhat confused as the map clearly places it in Russia, but the architecture featured prominently is clearly central/south american. Did the artists get carried away and not realize that no such architecture exists in Russia or was it intentional? The Parlainth boxed set proves it was intentional. Teotihuacan in Azltan is the city of Parlainth. How did a city in Russia end up in Mexico and nobody seems to realize it, not even the IE's and Dragons? To escape the scourge, a great magical ritual was placed on the city of Parlainth that would allow it to transport itself to a supposed safe place in the astral. The ritual was so powerful that once the city disappeared, its very memory and records would be erased from everyone and everywhere in the world. After the scourge it reappeared in Russia and everyone suddenly remembered it again. Though some Horrors snuck into the city before it was sealed and perhaps more entered once it was adrift in the Astral and they corrupted the whole city. In the Parlainth boxed set are pictures of horrors and bloody sacrifice in the Central American style. The architecture and art of the city are designed directly after the real ancient city in Mexico. So the FASA folks obviously had Parlainth disappear before the Theran Cataclysm and magic was still good, but instead of the Astral, it ended up in Mexico. In Target: Awakened Lands, under the description of Teotihuacan it mentions that the Aztecs didn't build the city, but found it as it was, abandoned and built upon older ruins as the magic level had fallen that the horrors could no longer exist in the world. No doubt the writings and artifacts left over where what inspired if not gave the Azzies all the info they needed for blood and death magic. The implication is clearly that Parlainths unique 'Theran' architecture inspired the art and architecture of the entire Central American region, as did the practice of blood sacrifice which are depicted by the Horrors to mark their corruption of Parlainth. Did the IE's and Dragons forget about Parlainth again when it moved to Mexico and so they really have no memory, or do they realize what happened and just keep it to themselves?

2-So Parlainth, corrupted by Horrors, is the real spiritual heart of Aztlan, so who is the corrupted dragon always rumored to be behind Aztlan? Certainly that would better explain Aztlan blood and Death magic as the Dragon could teach it directly, no need to try to figure out ancient tablets and the like. Well, if you've read the Earthdawn Dragons source book you'd know that the only dragon associated with Parlainth is Charcoalgrin. Charcoalgrin was obsessed with Parlainth as she was the one who gave the city the spell to remove Parlainth from reality and memory, so when it appeared and she remembered, she returned to find the city gutted by Horrors. She moved in to the city and set about using local rogues to search the city and bring her its corrupted treasures. In Dragons, it mentions that Charcoalgrin was interested in sending Parlainth back to its secret hiding place and that she was insane as far as dragons go. It's clear that she was able to move Parlainth though not where she intended. Perhaps one of the Horrors deep under the city came forth and corrupted her or perhaps when Parlainth was transferred to the astral again as it moved, Horrors invaded the city and corrupted her. Thus when she awoke from her sleep in her lair under Parlainth, she found Mexico/Aztlan which she gradually corrupted by introducing the old gods and religion as a screen to use blood and death magic to dominate the world and open the world to the Horrors. That she is ultimately behind Oscuro. I don't recall what type of Dragon, Eastern, Western, or whatever she was though in Aztlan an Eastern dragon is mentioned. Though Charcoalgrin could have other corrupt dragons working for her, it seems clear that the mystery dragon behind Aztechnology is Charcoalgrin. We have a mystery and we have the FASA folks mentioning Charcoalgrin and Parlainths connection for a reason, and this is in keeping with how they hide E/S info in rumors and riddles. Just like a movie or book, if it's important enough to be there, there must be a reason for it. This ties those mysteries together by connecting all the short strands FASA has put out, so this must be it.

3-Why was Charcoalgrin really so obsessed with Parlainth? Because her prized student and friend the Theran human Erypimese, was in Parlainth when it vanished and when the city returned and she remembered him, she found he was gone. But some of the 'astral patrol boats' which would allow small numbers from the city to leave and travel the metaplanes in astral boats were missing. So it was Charcoalgrins hope that Erypimese had survived in one of those boats and if she returned Parlainth to its astral pocket, she could search for him there. So if the Aztlan Dragon is Charcoalgrin, Juan Atzcapotzalco is Erypimese. How could a human survive that long even after Charcoalgrin found him floating in the astral? Charcoalgrin was so enamored with this guy that she taught him secret Dragon magics that allowed Parlainth to disappear and allow him some of the power of Drakes, the shape shifting ability and long life. Juan is a strange character, in the Aztlan book Hualpa mentions that when he met Juan he sensed a magic power about him but could read no magical aura even though Juan is a known magician. Ehren later says that when he met Juan, he sensed power mystical abilities and would have assumed he was an IE like himself but Juan appears totally human. Clearly Juan is a powerful figure in Shadowrun and even IE's and Dragons can't pierce his aura. We have Parlainth clearly in Aztlan. We have Charcoalgrin, Parlainths master and protector as the corrupted dragon behind Aztechnology. Her personal favorite Erypimese, for whom she risked everything and taught all her mystical dragon secrets but was a human of Mediterranean features and could pass for Mexican and was as powerful a human mage as there has been. Who could be so powerful a magician to fool Ehren and Hualpa face to face? Only somebody with deep magical secrets, the kind only dragons could have and even then Hualpa couldn't pierce his masking. There's no way a human could have been born and in a few decades have magic power that rivals or exceeds Ehren and Hualpa. The only person Juan can be is Erypimese.

So Mike Mulvahill, what do I win?

Those halcyon days of faith and hope, the pre-Prosperi times of innocence and respect. I liked the guy and defended every ‘coincidence’ and hole as being a mystery to unrevealed truths. The truth he revealed wasn’t what I was expecting. Considering that I made an ass of myself defending E/S and him, I still don’t understand what prompted his attacks on me, his biggest fan on the board. This thread is so fucking ironic it’s unreal. The greatest irony is that if the developers had half of the passion that the fans do, they wouldn't need to fire people or sell themselves.

Every GOOD storyteller knows that endings are the hardest and most important. Because it's easy to get caught up in action but the ending is the last thing remembered and first thing judged when the story is over. Having Lou slink away into the darkness isn't a fitting ending to this thread which has been more entertaining than most stories. So how does this end? Certainly not with apologies for defending yourself. Some people came here trying to attack people personally which they can. And those who are attacked certainly are within their rights to defend themselves. You can't whine about being beat up if you're the one who started the fight, nor can you expect any respect or favor from the person you attacked without cause. If some want to claim that Ancient History apologized, I certainly never saw it, though I would have no problems accepting his apologies. I have no problem apologizing to Ancient History and Lou if I was a little too rough on them. It wasn't my intention to come here and beat up on total strangers, but restraint, even in defense, is a virtue I need to work on.

Well, the mistake was in taking this seriously. Some did and some didn't. If you didn't, who cares. If you did, well, what now? Clearly the approach of Canon Law was misguided. If the discussions on this board exist to amuse and interest players or fans, the constant harping about 'canon' serves only to be divisive. It's clear that 'canon' ain't all you thought it was. The lesson is that if someone has opinions about E/S that differ from yours, that there is no 'correct answer,' only opinions. Since Lou won't apologize for his shameful and disrespectful posts, or show us the respect to explain and illuminate the other ‘mistakes’ from E/S so we could avoid them, it won't end that way though that would be a decent ending. The passion still exists for some, but 'canon' is a wasted outlet of their imaginations. So why not flip the entire premise? No discussing what is or isn't canon, but really accepting the premise of the willing suspension of disbelief? Sure the E/S folks are morons, but there's clearly a gem there underneath that all of us gained some enjoyment from. So ignore the fact that their world is a shallow and unfinished one and instead try to fill it with imagination that the board has in abundance, but the developers lacked. There is the malformed 'canon' world of E/S, but this board has more passion and intelligence about E/S than that. So why not focus on the 'Shadow' Shadowrun? Everyone who plays or runs a game has their own slant on the game so why not embrace that? No more flame wars about who knows the texts best, but more on your own imaginations which is far superior to the 'canon' anyway. Why not share ways to improve this imaginary world from your own perspective? If they go out of business, you’ll have to do that anyway.

The Inquisitors of 'Canon Law' attack and attempt to dominate those who would deviate from their Faith. This spirit of banality has reduced the discussion to challenges of quotes. 'Where are your citations!' If the champions of Canon Law and unimagination wouldn't harass and scare posters away because they might not have all the 'canon' references ready for examination, we could move beyond this stupidity. Time, threads and bandwidth spent on your own imaginings and ideas to enrich this stale Mythos that others could appreciate, and maybe incorporate into their own games, would be more valuable than attacking any deviation from a canon that is more defined by the price of free lance writers than any grand vision. The books are clearly the basis for any discussion, but the goal shouldn’t be arguing over what those books say absolutely, but looking at what they do say and HOW WE CAN IMPROVE ON THEM. Faith in 'canon' is not warranted, but faith in yourself and a passion for these games and a respect for the ideas of others is good enough for an interesting discussion. That's all any of us could hope for from a board like this.

toturi

Jan 31 2004, 08:31 AM

Post #307

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QUOTE (Trickster @ Jan 31 2004, 04:02 AM)

Hmmm....Well after LouP's contribution, I have to say I'm disappointed but not surprised that we gave the ED/SR writers too much credit. What I am also sadly not surprised by is the line-up of boorish morons high-fiving each other with superbly articulated posts like: "MasterShake bitches" and "Master Shake moans".

Shake had a pretty elegant and intriguing theory, sadly blown out the water by his faith in the fasa RPG development team. His idea was original, constructive and well thought-out, something which a few of the other contributors to this thread [and board in general] could learn from. Granted he got a bit wound-up when people disagreed with his ideas, is understandably let-down by the subsequent revelations, and probably went too far with his comments on AH, but these juvenile and ill-mannered claims of "I can't be bothered reading this stuff" or "give me the Cliff's [sic] notes" or splashing around NEWBIE claims [as if that really means anything or affects the validity of shake's opinion] leave a bad taste in the mouth.

It doesn't hurt to treat your fellow posters with respect, even if you don't think they deserve it.

I love ED; great game, great setting. I thought it gave SR a more epic context, but that was merely the hook. I've always been disappointed that I've never got to play in a full-fledged campaign, but I'm looking forward to the day when that finally happens.

I might not have treated Master Shake with respect but I certainly claim that I treated him with the respect he is due.

If I may use your own argument, I might say the same about you saying posts about "Cliff's notes" and ":noob:" are juvenile and leaving a bad taste as well. But I have not. Think about it.

Personally, I reciprocate respect and maturity. If that someone has proven his immaturity, I will therefore treat that person like a child, hence :noob:.

A theory that was good but was proven false is still false. There was no reason to go on and on about why it should be right. We may speculate about the origin of the world but when God says he made it, I think we should take it as gospel. Further argument is irrational and juvenile.

toturi

Jan 31 2004, 08:49 AM

Post #308

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QUOTE (Master Shake)

QUOTE (Master Shake @ Jan 14 2004, 03:52 AM)

I have been a fan of Shadowrun since I played the video game about a decade ago though I don't play E or S, I'm just vaguely interested in this as an interesting fictional world. I do not claim to be an expert on the Earthdawn/Shadowrun Mythos but I do check out this board once in a while (is there a good E board that's active?) and I have taken a look at most of the E/S Mythos books. This is primarily in response to the ridiculously long 'beat the horrors' thread which is now up to 18 pages. The tone of that thread was that Horrors can be bombed or you can hide from them. In my brief exposure to Earthdawn and Shadowrun books, the Horrors cannot be stabbed or shut or blow’d up as long as the Great Pattern of their infinite menace exists. They will come and come and come as long as they can which is what Harlequin and Dunkelzahn say. Now, this is only a game that I don’t even play, but with 18 pages I didn't see any mention of the Earthdawn answers on how to stop the horrors, so I figured I'd help out the discussion that doesn't really matter anyway. Here are some references to stopping the Horrors that I am aware of, there certainly could be more as I only have a very basic understanding of the Earthdawn books. I haven't read any of these books cover to cover, but are just some things that stood out to me while skimming through them:

1-Adepts Way- Under the description of the Nethermancer, a mage class that focuses on metaplanes of the dead and horrors, the writer mentions that, in theory, the horrors dimension can be sealed off from the E/S world. It takes the form of an unfinished manuscript and an unfinished section titled 'On Cosmology and Other Dimensions' is unfinished but referred to in the next section. It says 'As I have described in the preceding passage, finally sealing off our dimension from the Horrors will only be possible once we have answered the 8 questions of Jsona Var. Until then, we must rely on countermeasures to fight the Horrors after they have crossed the threshold to our world.'

So forget about conquering them, but if 8 mystical questions can be answered the Horrors can be shut out forever, in high or low magic I assume.

2-Theran Empire- This is perhaps the most interesting because it ties directly with the Shadowrun novel 'Black Madonna' which I read a long time ago. In that book there is an IE named Leonardo (da Vinci) who is also referred to as Brightlight in some other S source books like Aztlan where he appears in the D-IE discussion and someone mentions him in passing during talk of an AI owning Aztechnology. Leonardo is a follower of the Egyptian goddess Isis and is focused on 'the great work.' In the Theran Empire book, Egypt was once called Creana and central to the Creana gods and goddesses (Ureth, the Creana 'Great Mother' would be Isis) was the 'Great Work.' Which is to connect the magical pattern of Creana with the magical pattern of the 'lands of the west' (don't the Tir na Nog Elves talk about 'lands of the west?') by building monuments and magical structures to bind the two dimensions/patterns together. If this occurs, Creana will be transformed into a paradise as the 'lands of the west' are a metaplane (?) that would be called Heaven or Paradise where the good dead go. The cycle of death and rebirth will end and the heavens and earth will be one. All suffering and fear will disappear as all people will be rules by the Pharon God-King as a part of the strict hierarchy on Heaven/Earth.

That was the 'Great Work' Leonardo was working on in Black Madonna, but I think Leonardo gets captured by Lofwyr after Dunkelzahn dies in the 'Blood in the Boardroom' source book. So, theoretically in the E/S Mythos, by combining the true patterns, or true magical essence or souls of the Earth and Heaven, the earth would transcend to a perfect state of existence untouchable by the Horrors. I guess there needs to be magical obelisks and pyramids and monuments to mystically draw the true pattern of the earth and heaven together. Controlling ley lines, power sites with giant pyramids and establishing a Creana-style Heavenly Hierarchy across the globe with a Pharon God-King in his own home base on the Nile. I guess Lofwyr didn't like that idea too much.

3-Earthdawn Companion- This is where you find the primary metaphysical foundation to beating the Horrors. The Lightbearers are a secret organization directly opposed to the Horrors. Lightbearers draw power from 'The Great Pattern' which is a largely mysterious force. The major explanation is that the Great Pattern is the true Pattern or magical essence or soul of the world (universe?). The Great Pattern gives its followers powers to confront and destroy the Horrors so the Great Pattern is directly opposed to the Horrors. The Great Pattern is opposed to the Great Horror Pattern or whatever the overall mystical force of exploitation that the Horrors represent. Yin and Yang. To serve the Great Pattern you must foreswear blood magic (there is a difference between 'amoral' blood magic and 'evil' death magic) for anything but oaths and lightbearer stuff and you must strive to fight the horrors and 'bring light,' yada yada yada. Some of the powers of followers of the Great Pattern including joining your pattern or soul with the great pattern on death or transferring your soul through the great pattern to another lightbearer to give them your experience. They can heal and transfer karma/magical quanta to each other, avoid and defeat horror magics and all the other good guy stuff you'd expect.

So followers of the Great Pattern gain powers to counter Horrors not from a shear force level, but from a metaphysical countering. Nowhere does it seem like Horrors can be killed with swords or guns, even the Lightbearer powers are usefully only tactically, not strategically to stop the Horrors all together. In the E/S Mythos there seem to be two main forces, the Great Pattern of the world/universe and the Unmaking/exploiting Pattern of Horror. If the 8 questions of Jsona Var were answered or the Great Work Completed, it would mean empowering The Great Pattern to withstand or negate the Horror Pattern and the Horrors.

4-Blood Wood- The Elves of the Blood Wood managed to avoid the Horros by corrupting themselves and inflicting so much pain to themselves collectively, that the Horrors were less interested in them because Horrors want to cause pain and if you take that away from them they are less likely to attack.

So a massive ritual to corrupt metahumans to permanent suffering would make the Horrors less interested but if everyone did that, there wouldn't be easier prey for the Horrors to go after so they woudl still end up going after the corrupted. And the Wood Elves still needed to build magical protections that some Horrors still tried to attack. The Blood Wood book is more interesting for its non-specific but obvious reference to the first Vampire or HMHVV victim, a female elf who disappeared during the Horror rampages and returned later as a super strong blood sucking night walker. There’s your Queen of the Damned.

Here is something else that is somewhat related. Aztlan are the ones pushing the Horrors through death magic. Blood magic in Earthdawn is just using blood to power magical charms or oaths, while death magic was using human sacrifices to power magic. It's called blood magic in Shadowrun, but it's really death magic, not blood magic as it is in Earthdawn. Three things about Aztechnology and Aztlan that I've never seen mentioned anywhere but seem obvious to me.

1-Azzies got their magic from Parlainth. When I first saw the Earthdawn main rule book I was somewhat confused as the map clearly places it in Russia, but the architecture featured prominently is clearly central/south american. Did the artists get carried away and not realize that no such architecture exists in Russia or was it intentional? The Parlainth boxed set proves it was intentional. Teotihuacan in Azltan is the city of Parlainth. How did a city in Russia end up in Mexico and nobody seems to realize it, not even the IE's and Dragons? To escape the scourge, a great magical ritual was placed on the city of Parlainth that would allow it to transport itself to a supposed safe place in the astral. The ritual was so powerful that once the city disappeared, its very memory and records would be erased from everyone and everywhere in the world. After the scourge it reappeared in Russia and everyone suddenly remembered it again. Though some Horrors snuck into the city before it was sealed and perhaps more entered once it was adrift in the Astral and they corrupted the whole city. In the Parlainth boxed set are pictures of horrors and bloody sacrifice in the Central American style. The architecture and art of the city are designed directly after the real ancient city in Mexico. So the FASA folks obviously had Parlainth disappear before the Theran Cataclysm and magic was still good, but instead of the Astral, it ended up in Mexico. In Target: Awakened Lands, under the description of Teotihuacan it mentions that the Aztecs didn't build the city, but found it as it was, abandoned and built upon older ruins as the magic level had fallen that the horrors could no longer exist in the world. No doubt the writings and artifacts left over where what inspired if not gave the Azzies all the info they needed for blood and death magic. The implication is clearly that Parlainths unique 'Theran' architecture inspired the art and architecture of the entire Central American region, as did the practice of blood sacrifice which are depicted by the Horrors to mark their corruption of Parlainth. Did the IE's and Dragons forget about Parlainth again when it moved to Mexico and so they really have no memory, or do they realize what happened and just keep it to themselves?

2-So Parlainth, corrupted by Horrors, is the real spiritual heart of Aztlan, so who is the corrupted dragon always rumored to be behind Aztlan? Certainly that would better explain Aztlan blood and Death magic as the Dragon could teach it directly, no need to try to figure out ancient tablets and the like. Well, if you've read the Earthdawn Dragons source book you'd know that the only dragon associated with Parlainth is Charcoalgrin. Charcoalgrin was obsessed with Parlainth as she was the one who gave the city the spell to remove Parlainth from reality and memory, so when it appeared and she remembered, she returned to find the city gutted by Horrors. She moved in to the city and set about using local rogues to search the city and bring her its corrupted treasures. In Dragons, it mentions that Charcoalgrin was interested in sending Parlainth back to its secret hiding place and that she was insane as far as dragons go. It's clear that she was able to move Parlainth though not where she intended. Perhaps one of the Horrors deep under the city came forth and corrupted her or perhaps when Parlainth was transferred to the astral again as it moved, Horrors invaded the city and corrupted her. Thus when she awoke from her sleep in her lair under Parlainth, she found Mexico/Aztlan which she gradually corrupted by introducing the old gods and religion as a screen to use blood and death magic to dominate the world and open the world to the Horrors. That she is ultimately behind Oscuro. I don't recall what type of Dragon, Eastern, Western, or whatever she was though in Aztlan an Eastern dragon is mentioned. Though Charcoalgrin could have other corrupt dragons working for her, it seems clear that the mystery dragon behind Aztechnology is Charcoalgrin. We have a mystery and we have the FASA folks mentioning Charcoalgrin and Parlainths connection for a reason, and this is in keeping with how they hide E/S info in rumors and riddles. Just like a movie or book, if it's important enough to be there, there must be a reason for it. This ties those mysteries together by connecting all the short strands FASA has put out, so this must be it.

3-Why was Charcoalgrin really so obsessed with Parlainth? Because her prized student and friend the Theran human Erypimese, was in Parlainth when it vanished and when the city returned and she remembered him, she found he was gone. But some of the 'astral patrol boats' which would allow small numbers from the city to leave and travel the metaplanes in astral boats were missing. So it was Charcoalgrins hope that Erypimese had survived in one of those boats and if she returned Parlainth to its astral pocket, she could search for him there. So if the Aztlan Dragon is Charcoalgrin, Juan Atzcapotzalco is Erypimese. How could a human survive that long even after Charcoalgrin found him floating in the astral? Charcoalgrin was so enamored with this guy that she taught him secret Dragon magics that allowed Parlainth to disappear and allow him some of the power of Drakes, the shape shifting ability and long life. Juan is a strange character, in the Aztlan book Hualpa mentions that when he met Juan he sensed a magic power about him but could read no magical aura even though Juan is a known magician. Ehren later says that when he met Juan, he sensed power mystical abilities and would have assumed he was an IE like himself but Juan appears totally human. Clearly Juan is a powerful figure in Shadowrun and even IE's and Dragons can't pierce his aura. We have Parlainth clearly in Aztlan. We have Charcoalgrin, Parlainths master and protector as the corrupted dragon behind Aztechnology. Her personal favorite Erypimese, for whom she risked everything and taught all her mystical dragon secrets but was a human of Mediterranean features and could pass for Mexican and was as powerful a human mage as there has been. Who could be so powerful a magician to fool Ehren and Hualpa face to face? Only somebody with deep magical secrets, the kind only dragons could have and even then Hualpa couldn't pierce his masking. There's no way a human could have been born and in a few decades have magic power that rivals or exceeds Ehren and Hualpa. The only person Juan can be is Erypimese.

So Mike Mulvahill, what do I win?

Those halcyon days of faith and hope, the pre-Prosperi times of innocence and respect. I liked the guy and defended every ‘coincidence’ and hole as being a mystery to unrevealed truths. The truth he revealed wasn’t what I was expecting. Considering that I made an ass of myself defending E/S and him, I still don’t understand what prompted his attacks on me, his biggest fan on the board. This thread is so fucking ironic it’s unreal. The greatest irony is that if the developers had half of the passion that the fans do, they wouldn't need to fire people or sell themselves.

Every GOOD storyteller knows that endings are the hardest and most important. Because it's easy to get caught up in action but the ending is the last thing remembered and first thing judged when the story is over. Having Lou slink away into the darkness isn't a fitting ending to this thread which has been more entertaining than most stories. So how does this end? Certainly not with apologies for defending yourself. Some people came here trying to attack people personally which they can. And those who are attacked certainly are within their rights to defend themselves. You can't whine about being beat up if you're the one who started the fight, nor can you expect any respect or favor from the person you attacked without cause. If some want to claim that Ancient History apologized, I certainly never saw it, though I would have no problems accepting his apologies. I have no problem apologizing to Ancient History and Lou if I was a little too rough on them. It wasn't my intention to come here and beat up on total strangers, but restraint, even in defense, is a virtue I need to work on.

Well, the mistake was in taking this seriously. Some did and some didn't. If you didn't, who cares. If you did, well, what now? Clearly the approach of Canon Law was misguided. If the discussions on this board exist to amuse and interest players or fans, the constant harping about 'canon' serves only to be divisive. It's clear that 'canon' ain't all you thought it was. The lesson is that if someone has opinions about E/S that differ from yours, that there is no 'correct answer,' only opinions. Since Lou won't apologize for his shameful and disrespectful posts, or show us the respect to explain and illuminate the other ‘mistakes’ from E/S so we could avoid them, it won't end that way though that would be a decent ending. The passion still exists for some, but 'canon' is a wasted outlet of their imaginations. So why not flip the entire premise? No discussing what is or isn't canon, but really accepting the premise of the willing suspension of disbelief? Sure the E/S folks are morons, but there's clearly a gem there underneath that all of us gained some enjoyment from. So ignore the fact that their world is a shallow and unfinished one and instead try to fill it with imagination that the board has in abundance, but the developers lacked. There is the malformed 'canon' world of E/S, but this board has more passion and intelligence about E/S than that. So why not focus on the 'Shadow' Shadowrun? Everyone who plays or runs a game has their own slant on the game so why not embrace that? No more flame wars about who knows the texts best, but more on your own imaginations which is far superior to the 'canon' anyway. Why not share ways to improve this imaginary world from your own perspective? If they go out of business, you’ll have to do that anyway.

The Inquisitors of 'Canon Law' attack and attempt to dominate those who would deviate from their Faith. This spirit of banality has reduced the discussion to challenges of quotes. 'Where are your citations!' If the champions of Canon Law and unimagination wouldn't harass and scare posters away because they might not have all the 'canon' references ready for examination, we could move beyond this stupidity. Time, threads and bandwidth spent on your own imaginings and ideas to enrich this stale Mythos that others could appreciate, and maybe incorporate into their own games, would be more valuable than attacking any deviation from a canon that is more defined by the price of free lance writers than any grand vision. The books are clearly the basis for any discussion, but the goal shouldn’t be arguing over what those books say absolutely, but looking at what they do say and HOW WE CAN IMPROVE ON THEM. Faith in 'canon' is not warranted, but faith in yourself and a passion for these games and a respect for the ideas of others is good enough for an interesting discussion. That's all any of us could hope for from a board like this.

Lou already told you your speculations were invalid, that he certainly did not intend for certain things to be linked. Clearly your claim that Canon should be ignored is misguided. While what I think of Canon may be different than yours, you do not argue with the line developer since he wrote the damned thing. Arguing about it is akin to arguing if the world is flat after it has been proven that it is not.

Your claim that your brand of E/S history is correct and that Canon is false is certainly ridiculous since without Canon, we might as well just argue about the weather. Since everyone has their own opinion on the "truth", whose truth is more true?

You advocate a departure from Canon. That, in itself, is alright since as every GM knows, everyone else's game world is different. But in order to have a constructive argument, one that we can prove or disprove or agree to disagree is namely to quote Canon references.

Speculation is fine as long as you have some Canon proof to support your claim but please accept it when other people start shooting down your theories especially if you have no solid Canon reference to back it up.

annachie View Member Profile	Jan 31 2004, 12:09 PM Post #309
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Melbourne Member No.: 652	Toturi: It's bad enough that he quoted the entirety of one of his own posts, then wrote one of his normal responses. But did you really have to quote the entirety of both of them as well? :)

Trickster

Jan 31 2004, 12:48 PM

Post #310

Target

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QUOTE (Trickster)

So onto other questions I have regarding ED/SR:

What was Harlequin up to in the 4th age? I gather he was involved with the lightbearers, and imagine he was opposed to both Thera and Blood Wood, come to think of it probably opposed to every ED conspiracy/power broker I can think of. Was he even in Barsaive? What accomplishments of note did he achieve? For that matter, what about Ehran?

Maybe Juan Atzcapotzalco is the dragon behind Aztechnology? Would explain why two extraordinarily powerful mages would fail in assessensing him. Though I admit aura intersection would perhaps be the fly in this particular theory's ointment. Dunkelzahn being behind the Azzies is about the most ludicrous thing I can conceive. I'm not going to get too into it, but basing this on the fact that he had some shares [even enough to get a seat on the board] is just a little too far-fetched. From this we can also conclude that he must also be behind Renraku. Yes? And Ares? All of them? Involved perhaps, to one extent or another. In charge of? No. It's perfectly conceivable that an inordinately wealthy individual, particularly one who likes to have a finger in every pie, would have interests in these companies. Along with a few other guys just like him - Ryumyo, Lofwyr for a start. Is there anything in Dunkelzahn's background that suggests he may be a horror marked/corrupted great dragon, who is determined to get the boys back in town as quickly as possible? If there is I'd genuinely love to hear it, honestly, but it'll need to be good to convince me.

On Juan, my particular favourite is the idea that he is, as it says in the book, after all just a puppet. Other spellcasters [eg. a corrupted dragon, Oscuro, or the Bloodmage Gestalt] may use some advanced metamagic form of masking to make him look incredibly powerful to the likes of Ehran and Hualpa, or perhaps this powerful aura is just a side-effect of the masking being used to stop him being read for truth/lies/emotion etc, or alternatively, he is possessed by some incredibly powerful free [blood] spirit [perhaps even a horror], confusing the readings of the above-mentioned.

Anyone up for throwing the Black Lodge/Denairastas Clan links football around? A shadowy immortal human spellcaster leading a group with links all the way back through history eg. the Knights-Templar. I'm sold!! I admit to being no expert on Denairastas but my gut tells me this stands a fair chance of someone else [i.e. AH or MS] being able to prove it or convince me who else it could be.

Anyone read Ragnarok? What happens to Winternight in there? I assume from the title that they're involved.

I posted some questions etc. a while back that seem to have got lost in the noise. Anyone still up for a bit of ED/SR debate?

Austere Emancipa...

Jan 31 2004, 01:04 PM

Post #311

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (toturi)

You advocate a departure from Canon. That, in itself, is alright since as every GM knows, everyone else's game world is different. But in order to have a constructive argument, one that we can prove or disprove or agree to disagree is namely to quote Canon references.

Speculation is fine as long as you have some Canon proof to support your claim but please accept it when other people start shooting down your theories especially if you have no solid Canon reference to back it up.

Perhaps it would be best if theories about the metaplot would go more along the lines of "It says X on p. Y of book Z, which could be taken to mean A" etc, and not like "It says X on p. Y of book Z, which obviously must mean A". This thread seems to have been far more of the latter. There will be clashes whenever one takes an interpretation of a text and pronounces it the right one. Whenever discussing interpretations, just suggest -- never claim it is correct, never claim it is best.

While I still don't agree with the tone of Master Shake's messages, if he (and everybody else who might have trouble with this point) does take heed of his own words "The lesson is that if someone has opinions about E/S that differ from yours, that there is no 'correct answer,' only opinions" the world will be a better place. Just remember to put your opinions forward as opinions and nothing else.

Arguing about what canon actually says is still to be expected. Sometimes you have got to know what, exactly, the books do say. You can't interpret something if you don't even remember what it said in the first place. And if you don't care about what the books say at all, then you're on a very different level of opinions and interpretations.

toturi

Jan 31 2004, 01:49 PM

Post #312

Canon Companion

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QUOTE (annachie)

Toturi: It's bad enough that he quoted the entirety of one of his own posts, then wrote one of his normal responses. But did you really have to quote the entirety of both of them as well?

:)

Actually, all I'm doing is to mirror image all he does. I'm a simple person. If someone's stye rubs me the wrong way, I'll do the same to him and see if he likes it. Some people call this retribution. :)

If he quotes his whole post, I'll quote him quoting his whole post.

If he writes a two page essay, I'll write what I've to say and put it into a 2 page essay. God knows, he's pissed me off enough by dissing Canon.

Nath

Jan 31 2004, 02:00 PM

Post #313

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Trickster)

From this we can also conclude that he must also be behind Renraku. Yes? And Ares? All of them? Involved perhaps, to one extent or another. In charge of? No.

There's a difference between being behind something, and being in charge of it. In Ares' case, Dunkelzahn didn't only held 12% of the capital, he was also the one who allowed David Gavilan to become President/CEO Damien Knight, probably motivated all those anti-bugs operations, associated the corp to its campaign, and when he warned Knight that going at war with Cross wouldn't be tolerated, Knight listened (and, as you know, as soon as the dragon was dead, he started again). Dunkelzahn didn't bother to control every action of Ares, but caused or delayed some major events in Ares existence.

That's particular to Ares. I'd agree with you concerning Renraku. Concerning Aztechnology, I don't think he was behind Aztechnology's policy, but I'd doubt you could resume the fact that Dunkelzahn had shares and seat just for the dividends.

On the other hand, Rhonabwy is an example of a wealthy dragon having just "interests" in Ares (and Shiawase).

QUOTE (Trickster)

Anyone read Ragnarok? What happens to Winternight in there? I assume from the title that they're involved.

I didn't read it, but IIRC it involves Alamais manipulating one of Winternight cell to attack his brother.

Ancient History View Member Profile	Jan 31 2004, 03:37 PM Post #314
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935	I don't believe this. Not only is Master Shake now quoting himself, he still thinks I haven't apologized. Enough with the Prosperi-bashing guys! Jeez, I've put at least as much work into this as anybody and nothing he's said made me flip my gourd (although the Hecate = Alachia was a surprise).

JongWK

Jan 31 2004, 04:39 PM

Post #315

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Master Shake)

Considering that I made an ass of myself defending E/S and him, I still don’t understand what prompted his attacks on me, his biggest fan on the board.

Excuse me? I've re-read LouP's again and again, and I can't find anything that qualifies as a personal attack. He debunked your theory, end of the story. Stop insulting our intelligence.

QUOTE

The greatest irony is that if the developers had half of the passion that the fans do, they wouldn't need to fire people or sell themselves.

You, obviously, don't have a clue about how the gaming industry works, right? (*)

* Not that I know a lot, but you make me look like Adam-fragging-Smith.

Ok people, shall we change the topic? I'm more itnerested in the implications of Alachia being Sheila Blatavska? How would you re-interpretate some of the AF's actions in light of this?

Swansonegger

Jan 31 2004, 05:13 PM

Post #316

Target

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QUOTE ("Master Shake")

If some want to claim that Ancient History apologized, I certainly never saw it, though I would have no problems accepting his apologies.

He has, repeatedly.

QUOTE ("Ancient History")

Yaar. He do post much, don't he? I've admitted I was a bit of a dick in me criticisms.

and

QUOTE ("Ancient History")

On hindsight, I would say that I was a bit of an ass when remarking on Shake's theory.

To just point out a couple. If you are expecting him to get on his knees and beg forgiveness, you are out of luck. That is about as good an apology as I have ever seen on DSF. If that isn't good enough for you, you are SOL, and a complete shit.

QUOTE ("Master Shake")

Those halcyon days of faith and hope, the pre-Prosperi times of innocence and respect. I liked the guy and defended every ‘coincidence’ and hole as being a mystery to unrevealed truths. The truth he revealed wasn’t what I was expecting.

So, because he didn't support TWO of your theories, he is a jerk, and everything about ES/SR is bad now? Holy fuck, what an insecure, self-absorbed jackass you are.

QUOTE

Considering that I made an ass of myself defending E/S and him, I still don’t understand what prompted his attacks on me, his biggest fan on the board.

No, you made an ass of yourself defending your own theories, after many, many people put holes in them, simply by using the canon materials. And when LouP came out of lurking to set the record straight, and to perhaps give you a graceful exit to discuss your other theories instead of harping on just two, you attack him. Making yourself into likely the biggest ass ever to post on these boards buy attempting to make yourself more important than the gentleman who gave us Earthdawn.

Perhaps when you create and develop a game as good as ES, maybe then you'll have the credibility to say the trash you are saying now.

QUOTE

Clearly the approach of Canon Law was misguided.

No actually, 'Canon Law' is the best route to take. By using canon, differing viewpoints can use it as a basis for finding consensus. Unfortunately for you, Canon has proven your theories incorrect, so you must attack the canon. Deal with the fact that your theories are wrong, as supported by Canon Law. If you don't like it, go make your own game, or version of ES. Do not attack the canon, line developer, and other fans who have different opinions. Your word is not law, so grow up, and realise that the world doesn't revolve around you.

QUOTE

No more flame wars about who knows the texts best, but more on your own imaginations which is far superior to the 'canon' anyway.

As long as it is your imagination leading the way, right? Seems to me a lot of imagination has gone into alternate arguments to your theories, so why are you trivialising and attacking those so much? Oh yes, because these alterate ideas are not yours.

QUOTE

Time, threads and bandwidth spent on your own imaginings and ideas to enrich this stale Mythos that others could appreciate,

Stale? Says who? Oh yes, you say that. Because we don't accept your theories.

QUOTE

The Inquisitors of 'Canon Law' attack and attempt to dominate those who would deviate from their Faith. This spirit of banality has reduced the discussion to challenges of quotes. 'Where are your citations!' If the champions of Canon Law and unimagination wouldn't harass and scare posters away because they might not have all the 'canon' references ready for examination, we could move beyond this stupidity.

Actually, I reread this thread, and found that many people were accepting of your theories, but some had some critiques, based on the canon material. Which you totally flamed on, starting the whole flame war.

The reason "Canon Law" is used so much is because without it, we would sooner rather than later have punks telling us how their kewl new corp (run by their PCs, natch) took over Ares and are about to take over all of North American and set up their own really kewl state with Battlemechs. And also because of the rather large number of people who post here who have a high level of education and maturity, and by experience expect theories to be supported by root sources (as in Canon material). If you had tried to pull this crap in the Lounge (may it rest in peace), you would have been ripped apart and ridiculed on Day One.

Too bad you had be such an ass and focus only on the critques of a few parts of your theories. Instead of going all psycho, you could have said "Yes, I see where I may be wrong here, but let's talk about my other stuff. What do you think of that?".

And finally,

QUOTE

I still don’t understand what prompted his attacks on me, his biggest fan on the board. This thread is so fucking ironic it’s unreal. The greatest irony is that if the developers had half of the passion that the fans do, they wouldn't need to fire people or sell themselves.

LouP NEVER attacked you. He merely set the record straight. So I suggest you better stop your attacks on him, as he has a lot more credibility than you will ever have.

Basically like I stated earlier. Unless you have something constructive to say, please shut your pie-hole.

Siege View Member Profile	Jan 31 2004, 05:28 PM Post #317
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916	Alright, I second the "please nuke this thread now" motion. -Siege

Talia Invierno

Jan 31 2004, 06:21 PM

Post #318

Shooting Target

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QUOTE

although the Hecate = Alachia was a surprise
- Ancient History

Sheer curiosity - why? Because that was one that was dead obvious to me from the first time I read Aztlan: just look at the tone of her interaction with the Lady.

Still, I always knew I was in the severe minority in that association. Maybe your answer might explain that part of the majority's beliefs where they didn't follow from quasi-canonising your site? Because I never saw it, and obviously there were things in there that caused others to do so.

And now for the short form (edited to say what I wanted to say originally - sigh):

On behalf of everyone whom someone feels owes them an apology (or more of an apology): I'm sorry.
On behalf of everyone who wants an apology (or more of an apology): 'Sokay. It's over and done with.

:evil:

moosegod

Jan 31 2004, 06:49 PM

Post #319

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QUOTE (Siege)

Alright, I second the "please nuke this thread now" motion.

-Siege

Can I second myself?

GoldenAri View Member Profile	Jan 31 2004, 07:08 PM Post #320
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 198 Joined: 26-December 03 Member No.: 5,935	Okay, I've been passively reading this thread for what 2 weeks, 3 weeks? Before I start I'd like to also put in my vote for shutting down this pointless flame war, or moving it over to the "Examples of how not to discuss things on Dumpshock" folder. All I've got to say is this. Master Shake, the theory was good and believable. The writers apparently didn't intend it to work that way, and perhaps canon doesn't support it but that doesn't mean it's not usable in a game. However, just because you put write a 3 page essay that people largely liked, but didn't think was fully supported by canon doesn't give you the right to berate them. Had you defended yourself on the issues only and made no reference to the people writing the responses this all would have turned out differently and people wouldn't be calling you immature. But ah well, that's not how it played out. Instead you responded venomously toward anyone who contradicted your point of view. I'm not sure why you bothered posting it if you weren't ready to have people look at it critically. To the rest of you (note that I'm not directing this at anyone in particular so if it doesn't apply to you feel good that it doesn't because there is no need to tell us you point X doesn't apply to you because of Y): While I agree that MS has been rude, immature, and possibly irrational that doesn't we should all gather around and pick on him. You don't agree with him and you think your right. You have your thinking and he his. You've all layed down your evidvence and nobody has changed position. Leave it at that. Speaking profanely and rudely to him isn't going to make your agruement any stronger and goes a long way toward making him want to resist the validity of your arguement. If you stuck to just discussing what was presented and didn't respond to his personal attack then he'd be left as an example of immature behavior, but you didn't instead you acted just like him and so are no more mature than he is. Now, you did try and apologize, but when your apology wasn't accepted you just went back to acting the way you had just apologized for acting. Making that and all future apologies hollow. I could continue on this point for some time, but my post is getting long and you either already know this or don't. Respond, flame, accept. I don't care I'm done with this thread.

Ancient History

Jan 31 2004, 07:17 PM

Post #321

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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)

QUOTE

although the Hecate = Alachia was a surprise
- Ancient History

Sheer curiosity - why? Because that was one that was dead obvious to me from the first time I read Aztlan: just look at the tone of her interaction with the Lady.

I personally just thought Aina fit the role better. But it works well either way.

Talia Invierno View Member Profile	Jan 31 2004, 09:29 PM Post #322
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689	Thanks, Ancient History. Useful, that: different people, different ways of seeing. (For I would never have seen Aina that way without looking through your eyes! ;) )

The Jopp View Member Profile	Jan 31 2004, 10:42 PM Post #323
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948	Damn, Is this thread alive and writhing in it's own severe agonies? Well, I guess it's all up to me now. Looks sad but determined Carefully plant nukes all around the thread, add one or two extras to the extremely long posts of Master Shake and sits down with the detonator. Well, it's been fun folks but it is time to put it out of it's misery. Nukes thread with digital nuclear binary fire See, even nuclear clouds have a silver lining. :D

Prototype

Feb 1 2004, 12:07 AM

Post #324

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QUOTE

So onto other questions I have regarding ED/SR:

What was Harlequin up to in the 4th age? I gather he was involved with the lightbearers, and imagine he was opposed to both Thera and Blood Wood, come to think of it probably opposed to every ED conspiracy/power broker I can think of. Was he even in Barsaive? What accomplishments of note did he achieve? For that matter, what about Ehran?

Maybe Juan Atzcapotzalco is the dragon behind Aztechnology? Would explain why two extraordinarily powerful mages would fail in assessensing him. Though I admit aura intersection would perhaps be the fly in this particular theory's ointment. Dunkelzahn being behind the Azzies is about the most ludicrous thing I can conceive. I'm not going to get too into it, but basing this on the fact that he had some shares [even enough to get a seat on the board] is just a little too far-fetched. From this we can also conclude that he must also be behind Renraku. Yes? And Ares? All of them? Involved perhaps, to one extent or another. In charge of? No. It's perfectly conceivable that an inordinately wealthy individual, particularly one who likes to have a finger in every pie, would have interests in these companies. Along with a few other guys just like him - Ryumyo, Lofwyr for a start. Is there anything in Dunkelzahn's background that suggests he may be a horror marked/corrupted great dragon, who is determined to get the boys back in town as quickly as possible? If there is I'd genuinely love to hear it, honestly, but it'll need to be good to convince me.

On Juan, my particular favourite is the idea that he is, as it says in the book, after all just a puppet. Other spellcasters [eg. a corrupted dragon, Oscuro, or the Bloodmage Gestalt] may use some advanced metamagic form of masking to make him look incredibly powerful to the likes of Ehran and Hualpa, or perhaps this powerful aura is just a side-effect of the masking being used to stop him being read for truth/lies/emotion etc, or alternatively, he is possessed by some incredibly powerful free [blood] spirit [perhaps even a horror], confusing the readings of the above-mentioned.

Anyone up for throwing the Black Lodge/Denairastas Clan links football around? A shadowy immortal human spellcaster leading a group with links all the way back through history eg. the Knights-Templar. I'm sold!! I admit to being no expert on Denairastas but my gut tells me this stands a fair chance of someone else [i.e. AH or MS] being able to prove it or convince me who else it could be.

Anyone read Ragnarok? What happens to Winternight in there? I assume from the title that they're involved.

In the 4th age Harlequin was ambassador to the Blood Wood from the Northern Isles. Why he knows most of the bad-boys kicking about down there. He is definitely a Lightbearer and is described as being a Sorcerer Adept and something else as well. So he is in the Blood Wood, and it's in the sourcebook of the same name you can find out more about him.

As I've said before, I reckon Juan is some sort of power-unto-himself, but forced into his past role by a greater power still. The most likely thing I would think is that he is controlled/manipulated/corrupted himself, this makes most sense in light of his role inside Aztechnology, his sporadic appearances, and the instructions in Dunkelzahn's will for him and his subsequent disappearance.

Black Lodge/Denairastas connection makes some sense based on what little I know of said clan. However, Black Lodge is a kinda silly concept... teleportation and super-magic are a bit gay, for want of a better word, for Shadowrun in my mind.

As for Ragnarok, basics are that Lofwyr's bro gets Winterknight to take on the big man himself and it ends with Lofwyr giving him a bit of a kicking in a fight and having him teeth at his throat. Apparently that's enough to teach a dragon a lesson though and they don't go about wantonly killing each other so he lets him go live in shame or somesuch. Read the last few chapters in a shop one day!

toturi

Feb 1 2004, 12:36 AM

Post #325

Canon Companion

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QUOTE (The Jopp)

Damn, Is this thread alive and writhing in it's own severe agonies?

Well, I guess it's all up to me now. *Looks sad but determined*

*Carefully plant nukes all around the thread, add one or two extras to the extremely long posts of Master Shake and sits down with the detonator.*

Well, it's been fun folks but it is time to put it out of it's misery.

*Nukes thread with digital nuclear binary fire*

See, even nuclear clouds have a silver lining. :D

"Your mission is to fly stright down this trench... only a direct hit would destroy this thread." You're not an admin, are you?

*Vader voice* "Stay in attack formation." "Stay on the leader." "I'll take him myself."

8)

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