Spellcasting and gestures/spoken formulas, Do mages need to perform some action to cast a spell? Options

[10gauge]

Since a long time I was wondering whether mages need to perform some action like gestures or spoken formulas to cast a spell. I think it would be unfair if mages just have to concentrate because a mundane opponent never would be able to notice that he's going to be grilled. I couldn't find any information about this problem. Help and suggestions would be very appreciated.

Cheers!

[Stahlseele]

No, they don't.
If they can see something, it does not matter if you have cut their vocal cords and severed their arms.
They can kill you with their mind, if they can see you.
Only if they take the two Testiculation Geasa they need to Wave around and talk bollocks.
Technically, you can't even stop a mage from casting spells if you blind him.
He will just use astral perception to sling mana spells.

[10gauge]

This makes them extremely dangerous. So, if a megacorp wants to negotiate with a runner they don't know yet, would they first observe him even with a mage to determine whether he is magically active or not?

I have a very paranoid mage in my group and I don't want four dead NPCs for nothing. This would probably end in disaster.

[Uli]

I agree that there are in general no universal signs, but...

The more powerful magicical practice is the more obvious it becomes. A force 2 Stun Bolt will probably not feature any gestures, maybe a whispered (and exchangeable) word of power and a glance. A force 10 energy bolt is very noticeable - the mage will prabably assume a dominant posture, breath deaply, speak formulae intensely (not necessarily loud), and make a forceful wave or pointing while casting.

The point is, that a mage uses methods which help his mind kill people. That can be postures, gestures, word, humming, or intense inward concentration like Hiro Nakamura. Or whatever fits.

[EDIT: There's nothing wrong with bringing professional magical security to a negotiation. You could put an astral barrier between the group and the Johnson to prevent each of the two of assensing and making the other party nervous. And no, I think there is nothing especially wrong with checking runner mages. They check their mates, associates, and enemies all the time themselves.]

[Stahlseele]

This makes them extremely dangerous. So, if a megacorp wants to negotiate with a runner they don't know yet, would they first observe him even with a mage to determine whether he is magically active or not?

I have a very paranoid mage in my group and I don't want four dead NPCs for nothing. This would probably end in disaster.

Where, do you think, does the KILL THE MAGE FIRST come from? O.o
You can not caputre a mage and make him helpless, unless you can take his magic away somehow . .
all his mind.control and fire-power is built in.

[10gauge]

Thank you for your quick and very helpful replies.

[Neraph]

Don't forget about Mana Static and Magecuffs/Mage Hood (hood, was it?), if you really want to lay the smack-down on a mage.

That aside, mage's aren't all that supremely powerful. You have to remember balancing factors like Drain and SHOOT THE MAGE FIRST.

[Muspellsheimr]

Magicians are not required to make any form of physical movement or vocalize anything to cast or summon, unless they take a Geas for such. Every-day spellslingers, however, often will as a method of focus & concentration; my characters, however, never do unless I specify otherwise (& then it is usually for show).

This does not mean you cannot notice someone using magic - high Force spells & summoning is actually very noticable.

Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a
Perception Test (p. 117) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the
magic’s Force—more powerful magic is easier to spot. Th e gamemaster
should apply additional modifi ers as appropriate, or if
the perceiver is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving
(+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is evident (+2 dice).

[Stahlseele]

So, even if the Mage is only casting a small little glance into your direction, you have to make a perception test with . . what? Force 6 Stun-Bolt, meaning 0 Successed needed? O.o

[GreyBrother]

That should tell you something... they DO need to do something which can be perceived, otherwise it would'nt be a Complex Action.

Short Answer: Magicians need to do something to cast a spell or summon a spirit.
Long Answer: A Magician needs to do something appropriate for his tradition. A shaman sings the songs of his totem, a hermetician vocalizes the spell, whatever the player comes up with that fits. Why? Traditions aren't for show. A shaman doesn't learn to kill people by glancing at them, he curses them with pain and hurt, a mambo pleads to damballah to strike her enemies down with lightning and so on.

[Zurai]

A Magician needs to do something appropriate for his tradition. A shaman sings the songs of his totem, a hermetician vocalizes the spell, whatever the player comes up with that fits.

No. Geasa are 10 point Negative Qualities for a reason. Spellcasting is detectable, but not through any of the "makes spellcasting obvious" Geasa types (gestures, vocalization, dancing, etc).

[silva]

Agree with greybrother.

And the text is ambiguous - first it says its not necessary to gesture or anything visual. Then it says the spellcasting can be perceived by an perception test. Huh?

[GreyBrother]

No. Geasa are 10 point Negative Qualities for a reason. Spellcasting is detectable, but not through any of the "makes spellcasting obvious" Geasa types (gestures, vocalization, dancing, etc).

Geas just says, that you absolutely MUST do something specific for some magical actions. Until you take it you have free reign about what you do to make your magic as visible as needed. Those are just fluff geas, you don't get BP for it but the satisfaction that you actually do some roleplaying (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[CanRay]

On the part of keeping Mages hostage... Mage Mask. Keep them in that for a few days, and they'll be nice and insane.

Or Tranqs. Lots of Tranqs! No concentration, no magic!

And you can pump them full of artificial drugs to burn out their magic as well. Then release them into the General Population of a prison.

Lone Star Police Stations are not Nationalized (They're still part of the UCAS.). Lone Star PRISONS, however, are. They can do whatever they want that's legal under their laws, and no one can say Diddily-Bo!

And, frankly, the public isn't going to give two dreks about some ex-con magician anyhow.

[Zurai]

Agree with greybrother.

And the text is ambiguous - first it says its not necessary to gesture or anything visual. Then it says the spellcasting can be perceived by an perception test. Huh?

The two statements don't contradict each other. I know D&D isn't exactly well-liked around here, but it's the same thing as Spell-Like Abilities in D&D: they don't have Verbal, Somatic (gesture), or Material components, so there's no blindingly obvious way to detect that they're being used, but they still provoke Attacks of Opportunity in battle because you're focusing your attention on using your ability rather than defending yourself. Same thing here -- you're focused inwards, not paying attention to the "real world", not to mention with a high-Force spell there's probably some very obvious (thus the threshold of 0 for F6 spells) visual indicators from the gathering of mana itself. Glowing auras, sparkly air, a strong wind inside, etc. However, the text is VERY clear that you do NOT need to speak, gesture, or otherwise do anything physical to cast a spell.

[10gauge]

Well, even if you can notice a mage is casting by making a perception test... I see a problem with initiative. If you are faster than the mage, you won't notice anything because the mage hasn't begun to cast yet. If you're slower than the mage, he has finished his spell before you are allowed to make your perception test. So either you notice noting, or you you notice that he casted a spell while you're already burning.

Or did I miss something?

[silva]

I remember reading somewhere that the perception test is to see if the magician is trying to cast the spell, through visual clues (concentration, gestures, etc.). But I may be mistaken. Gonna read the book when arrive at home.

Anyway, if its true that a mage dont need to do anything other than think, the authors lost a great chance of depicting the roleplaying elements of the traditions, IMHO. Further, it took a step out from what I think are great magic depictions in the roleplaying industry (Mage, Unknown Armies, Witchcraft), and aproached what I see as poor magical depictions (like D&D, where spells are more like different guns).

(In my table, it would be mandatory. "Dont say you cast a manaball. Show me how you do it, by your traditions beliefs!").

[Cain]

Well, even if you can notice a mage is casting by making a perception test... I see a problem with initiative. If you are faster than the mage, you won't notice anything because the mage hasn't begun to cast yet. If you're slower than the mage, he has finished his spell before you are allowed to make your perception test. So either you notice noting, or you you notice that he casted a spell while you're already burning.

Or did I miss something?

Not all spells are combat spells. You might need to detect something like a mental manipulation. The shimmer in the air tells you *some* thing happened, the fact that the sarge is acting weird tells you what.

[Zurai]

Anyway, if its true that a mage dont need to do anything other than think, the authors lost a great chance of depicting the roleplaying elements of the traditions, IMHO.

(In my table, it would be mandatory. "Dont say you cast a manaball. Show me how you do it, by your traditions beliefs!").

And what if their tradition is Psionics? Or some other tradition that internalizes magic, such that there wouldn't BE an external physical sign of spellcasting such as gestures or chanting?

[silva]

And what if their tradition is Psionics? Or some other tradition that internalizes magic, such that there wouldn't BE an external physical sign of spellcasting such as gestures or chanting?

Nothing wrong with it, If the tradition´s way of spellcasting is like this. But stating beforehand "you dont need anything to cast a spell beyond a thought", is a step in the wrong direction, to me at least.

I think the process of spellcasting should be pre-stated just as the "spirit categories table", for each tradition.

Eg:

Shamanism spellcasting: chanting, dancing and talking to spirits.
Hermeticism spellcasting: whispering formulae, drawing glyphs in air.

[Draco18s]

BBB page 168, done.
"Intense concetration, small gestures, and whispering"

[Stahlseele]

would make magic in situations where stealth is needed a bit . . awkward no? O.o
The runners need to sneak by someone, the shaman proudly declares:"i cast improved invisibility force 6 on us" and promptly begins singing and dancing, while shaking his rattle.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Agree with greybrother.

And the text is ambiguous - first it says its not necessary to gesture or anything visual. Then it says the spellcasting can be perceived by an perception test. Huh?

The "Gathering of Energy" used for spellcasting or summoning is noticeable, the more powerful the spell, the easier that gathering of energy is... The hair on your neck may stand up, your skin may crawl with unseen energy... whatever, but that energy IS noticeable...

[silva]

would make magic in situations where stealth is needed a bit . . awkward no? O.o
The runners need to sneak by someone, the shaman proudly declares:"i cast improved invisibility force 6 on us" and promptly begins singing and dancing, while shaking his rattle.

The shaman would try to make all the chanting and dancing in a discreet way, just like a street sam would do to arm pump his shotgun while hiding.

Anyway, go to a Casa de Santo and try asking a pai de santo to appease the spirits for you BUT only by thinking, not making gestures or whispering... he wont do it because he prefers to offend you than the spirits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)



EDIT:

BBB page 168, done.
"Intense concetration, small gestures, and whispering"

I knew Ive read this somewhere. Thanks, Draco.

[Shinobi Killfist]

As I understand it, there are small gestures and whispering as the base spellcasting level. The Geasa makes it large obvious gestures or loud chanting. One if the force is high enough is obvious when someone is looking, the other might be obvious even if you aren't looking like turned away or in another room or is still obvious when its a low force spell.