[X] My Assistant

[Degausser]

The SR3 Magic book addressed this problem. Basically, casting spells is like doing any other highly complex skill. Usually, people develop a memory device to help them make the process easier. For example, I CAN do calculus in my head, but it is easier for me (and I am less likely to screw up) if I write the problem down and walk through it step-by-step.

A house rule I use is that, if someone tries to cast a spell without using their tradition's numonic (such as saying ogga booga or waving their arms around) then I increase the threshold by one. You can say it, whisper it, whatever, but if you are bound and gagged, you have an extra threshold.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The SR3 Magic book addressed this problem. Basically, casting spells is like doing any other highly complex skill. Usually, people develop a memory device to help them make the process easier. For example, I CAN do calculus in my head, but it is easier for me (and I am less likely to screw up) if I write the problem down and walk through it step-by-step.

A house rule I use is that, if someone tries to cast a spell without using their tradition's numonic (such as saying ogga booga or waving their arms around) then I increase the threshold by one. You can say it, whisper it, whatever, but if you are bound and gagged, you have an extra threshold.

That is an interesting idea... I like it...

[Stahlseele]

would not a dice-pool malus be a bit more appropriate?

[Degausser]

would not a dice-pool malus be a bit more appropriate?

Eh, Six one half a dozen the other. I have found that my players don't like it when I take away from heir dice pools, so increasing the threshold is a way to get around it.

Technically, according to the books, reducing a dice pool means that there is something wrong WITH YOU, whereas increasing the threshold means that THE TASK is harder. It is harder to cast a spell without your memory helpers (chants, dancing, singing, waving your hands around) so that would increase the threshold, where as something that is specific to you (for example, wounds) reduces your dice pool. That's just how I see it though.

[jesusofthemonkey...]

Also the caster can use the stealth skill to increase the successes the observers would need.

[DireRadiant]

Noticing the Casting is different then noticing the spell.

Noticing something Magic happened is distinct from noticing who cast the spell.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Noticing the Casting is different then noticing the spell.

Noticing something Magic happened is distinct from noticing who cast the spell.

However ift might make finding WHO cast the spell a little harder...

Because we all know the reaction to noticing the caster don't we? GEEEK THE MAGE FIRST.......

[Degausser]

However ift might make finding WHO cast the spell a little harder...

Because we all know the reaction to noticing the caster don't we? GEEEK THE MAGE FIRST.......

We did a silly one-shot campaign once, and it resulted in the funniest thing ever.

So, the team consisted of a couple Street Sams, and a mage. The Mage's handle was 'Geek.' He lasted approx. 0.4 seconds.

"Hi everyone, my name is Raz, and this is my friend, Geek, the Mage."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

We did a silly one-shot campaign once, and it resulted in the funniest thing ever.

So, the team consisted of a couple Street Sams, and a mage. The Mage's handle was 'Geek.' He lasted approx. 0.4 seconds.

"Hi everyone, my name is Raz, and this is my friend, Geek, the Mage."

Now that is Good... I loved it...

[LamplightSlasher]

The following is straight from the SR4A:


Noticing Magic
Just how obvious are magical skills? Not very, since most spells and spirits have little, if any,
visible effect in the physical world (unless the magician prefers to have flashy effects, or her
tradition calls for it). An observer has to notice the magicians intense look of concentration,
whispered incantations, and small gestures. Magicians of some traditions display a more
visible change when practicing magic known as the shamanic mask. The shamanic mask
typically changes the magicians features temporarily to display characteristics appropriate to
her mentor spirit or tradition”an eagle shaman, for example, might seem to have feathers
or beaklike features while spellcasting or summoning.
Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a
threshold equal to 6 minus the magicâs Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with
the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the
caster. The gamemaster should apply additional modifiers as appropriate, or if the perceiver
is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving (+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is
evident (+2 dice).

That actually seems pretty clear cut. I know I will be requiring mages in my own game to make some kind of visible 'gesture'.

The magical effect may not be visible, a manabolt thus being invisible upon casting and until impact with the target, but the gestures required to cast them are still physical.

[Stahlseele]

soo, as soon as the mages hands are found, he can't cast anymore?

[DireRadiant]

Only if you limit things to hand gestures.

The signs of skill use could be anything.

[CanRay]

Now, to throw some Kerosene on the fire... What about the Shamanic Mask?

[LamplightSlasher]

Just because someone knows that mage is casting, doesn't mean that they know what is being cast, or that they have the means to prevent it. And for the spellcasters, they are required to be creative in how they hide their gestures. Is that mysterious veiled woman with the Johnson simply from a culture where veils are common, or using them to hide her vocal gestures?

[Caadium]

"Alright rookie, the first rule to remember when dealing with Shadowrunners is to 'Geek the Mage first!'"

"But Sarge, how will I know which one is the mage?"

"Just look for the man that looks like he's trying to take a shit. Any man that is trying to crap during a firefight is a priority target. Either that's the mage, and therefore rule one applies, or its someone thats in over their head, in which case putting them out of there misery is the most humane thing you can do. Got it?"

"Yessir, cap the crapper, got it!"

[paws2sky]

Now, to throw some Kerosene on the fire... What about the Shamanic Mask?

FOOOSH!

Yeah...
Since its optional, why would you ever want it?
Should it apply to everyone with a Mentor Spirit?

-paws

[Lansdren]

FOOOSH!

Yeah...
Since its optional, why would you ever want it?
Should it apply to everyone with a Mentor Spirit?

-paws

For flavour a street ganger level wolf shaman of mine has a full nano tattoo of a wolf mask on his face to get more in the right frame of mind.

[Malachi]

The Shamanic Mask is an optional way to have your character's spellcasting be noticeable. For your character, you can have their method of Spellcasting be gestures, spoken word, shamanic mask, some other sort of "visual manifestation," or any combination of the previous. That much is all roleplaying fluff. It makes no difference as far as the rules are concerned as long as the Magician can see the target. If there's geasa involved, then that's a different story.

[Earlydawn]

Does anybody else throw the "subtle spells" thing out the window? I can't stand the idea of mages and shamans throwing around immensely powerful manaballs and such around without visible cues. It just feels too psionic and not magic to me.

[paws2sky]

Does anybody else throw the "subtle spells" thing out the window? I can't stand the idea of mages and shamans throwing around immensely powerful manaballs and such around without visible cues. It just feels too psionic and not magic to me.

We apparently have different definitions of immensely powerful.

The threshold to notice a caster is 6 minus the Force of the spell. At Force 6 and higher, any observer automatically notices a spell being cast unless they are incapable of making a Perception roll.

Arguably, Force 5 is about what most soft-maxed starting casters are going to be throwing around. At that level you need 1 hit to notice a magician casting. Not hard, even for Bob the Pedestrian to spot. And while Force 5 is very beefy, its hardly what I'd call immensely powerful.

At lower than Force 5, yeah, it can be tricky to notice a spell being cast, especially if you're unperceptive. That's one of the things that, rightly IMO, makes magicians scary.

So... yeah, I'm okay with low Force spells being hard to notice. If you want your magician to wave his arms around and chant up a storm, take Geas (Gestures), Geas (Singing), and enjoy your 20 extra BP.

-paws

PS Personally, I think I would have made the threshold (Spellcaster's Magic) minus Force, but whatever, I'm not a game designer.

[Kev]

Nothing wrong with it, If the tradition´s way of spellcasting is like this. But stating beforehand "you dont need anything to cast a spell beyond a thought", is a step in the wrong direction, to me at least.

I think the process of spellcasting should be pre-stated just as the "spirit categories table", for each tradition.

Eg:

Shamanism spellcasting: chanting, dancing and talking to spirits.
Hermeticism spellcasting: whispering formulae, drawing glyphs in air.

The funny thing is that a lot of that is just fluff, not game mechanic. Magic is like any other skill; you'll always perform it how you learn it. If people learn division by writing it out, then they'll naturally write it out when they need to do division. If you learn magic by concentrating and asking the spirits in Creole to lend you their strength, then TA-DA, that's what you'll do. But that's not the necessary part of magic; only the concentration and molding of mana is important, much like in division where the only thing necessary is the mathematical operations to acheive the result.

In my book, people notice magic due to the magician's intense concentration; perhaps they chant under their breath, or their eyes roll back slightly; whatever. When the spells cross the magical FORCE 6 threshold, well... then the air around the mage starts rippling, and you feel the mana being channeled and shaped around them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well Put...

[CanRay]

Back in the old days (Wow, I'M saying this?), the Shamanic Mask wasn't optional. And that's one thing I've kept. I also give Shamans their Totem (Mentor Spirit) for free.

It's just part of Shadowrun Magic as far as I'm concerned, and the plusses equal the minuses for having one as far as I'm concerned.

But that's just me. Sitting here, in my rocking chair. Polishing up my Defiance T-250 nice and pretty-like.

[Draco18s]

But that's just me. Sitting here, in my rocking chair. Polishing up my Defiance T-250 nice and pretty-like.

*Sigh*
I really do need to get myself a silver-topped cane. And a lawn. So I can yell at kids to get off of it.
(No, I'm not really that old, but there is a generation gap between 5th and 6th grades right now, so I do feel like "my generation" is rather small and feel old).

[GreyBrother]

The funny thing is that a lot of that is just fluff, not game mechanic. Magic is like any other skill; you'll always perform it how you learn it.

That's called a Tradition, isn't it?