[X] My Assistant

[Adonidus]

So I'm building up my first Shadowrun guy and getting into all the fun of the details of it, but then I got to the availability of my purchases. Looking up in the book it only seems to list availability for when you've already got a guy made up but how does it work for when you just building someone?
In the mean time I've just combined my base Charisma+Negotiation score for most items and if anything was really important I took my chances at listing it just so long as it wasn't crazy high above this value. But really, is their anything other than having your GM pick a number?

[Heath Robinson]

At character generation there's a limit of Availability 12 and a maximum Rating of 6 as per the rules in the Gear section of Assigning Resources under the Creating a Shadowrunner chapter. Page 86 of SR4A BBB, page 84 of SR4 BBB.

Furthermore, you can expand the Availability cap to 20 for a single item using the Restricted Gear 5 BP Posititive Quality from Runner's Companion, which may be taken a maximum of 3 times.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

At character generation there's a limit of Availability 12 and a maximum Rating of 6 as per the rules in the Gear section of Assigning Resources under the Creating a Shadowrunner chapter. Page 86 of SR4A BBB, page 84 of SR4 BBB.

Furthermore, you can expand the Availability cap to 20 for a single item using the Restricted Gear 5 BP Posititive Quality from Runner's Companion, which may be taken a maximum of 3 times.

What we do as well...

[overcannon]

Well, my group had a problem with the overuse of street and squatter, so I implemented the following.

Street: Availability 4, No vehicles, No gear over 5,000 Nuyen
Squatter: Availability 8, No gear over 10,000 Nuyen
Low: Availability 10, No gear over 45,000 Nuyen
Middle: Availability 12, No gear price restrictions
High: Availability 14, No gear price restrictions.
Luxury: Availability 16, No gear price restrictions.

[Method]

Oooo I like that.

[Adonidus]

Thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for, looks like I'm pretty good to go, now all I need to do is convince my GM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Overcannon's thing is neat too, I'll have to remember that one when I set up a run.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, my group had a problem with the overuse of street and squatter, so I implemented the following.

Street: Availability 4, No vehicles, No gear over 5,000 Nuyen
Squatter: Availability 8, No gear over 10,000 Nuyen
Low: Availability 10, No gear over 45,000 Nuyen
Middle: Availability 12, No gear price restrictions
High: Availability 14, No gear price restrictions.
Luxury: Availability 16, No gear price restrictions.

Only problem that I see with this is that it completely hoses the concept of the Runner who never stays in one place for longer than a day, keeping always under the radar, but is a professional (say Hitman, or Hacker, or Something) with access to the tools of the trade... Just because I choose to live a Low or Squatter existence in Motel flop to Motel flop, does not mean that I could not get access to the gear that I need to complete my missions...

I think that I will stick with the RAW. Availability up to 12, no limits on Nuyen expenditures to your starting Nuyen capabilities through BP (No More than 250,000 Nuyen at character creation barring any adjustments due to qualities).

[Method]

Well that is a slightly different situation. overcannon said he used it to deter players who take low-end lifestyles just to skimp on costs (not to support a character concept). In the case you describe I would say that the player adds up the prices of multiple low-end lifestyles and compares the resultant total to the table. Or I would just handwave it.

[BlueMax]

Only problem that I see with this is that it completely hoses the concept of the Runner who never stays in one place for longer than a day, keeping always under the radar, but is a professional (say Hitman, or Hacker, or Something) with access to the tools of the trade... Just because I choose to live a Low or Squatter existence in Motel flop to Motel flop, does not mean that I could not get access to the gear that I need to complete my missions...

I think that I will stick with the RAW. Availability up to 12, no limits on Nuyen expenditures to your starting Nuyen capabilities through BP (No More than 250,000 Nuyen at character creation barring any adjustments due to qualities).

Lifestyle isn't just just your bed. It includes food, entertainment, LTG errr Wireless provider and so on.
You could be the guy who moves from place to place under the radar but still have nice things. One could, but I am not, argue that the dude who doesn't have a lifestyle cannot keep up socially and becomes excluded. Though I am not making this argument, I believe it could be the intent of the chart.

My argument here was "Just because I am broke now, doesn't mean I have always been broke".

I too stick with RAW.

BlueMax
/"This is why we can't have nice things"

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Lifestyle isn't just just your bed. It includes food, entertainment, LTG errr Wireless provider and so on.
You could be the guy who moves from place to place under the radar but still have nice things. One could, but I am not, argue that the dude who doesn't have a lifestyle cannot keep up socially and becomes excluded. Though I am not making this argument, I believe it could be the intent of the chart.

My argument here was "Just because I am broke now, doesn't mean I have always been broke".

I too stick with RAW.

BlueMax
/"This is why we can't have nice things"

However, Entertainment is strictly optional... Food serves nothing but to keep one alive (whether it is the basest crap or the most luxurious Exotic Food is irrelevant for staying alive)... Who cares about Wireless or matrix services (all I would need is a minor Matrix account -available for 50 Nuyen Monthly)... Nice things get in the way of escape and evasion... the less you have to worry about, the more free you are...

However, I agree with the above completely... It completely depends upon the character concept...

Thanks

[Mickle5125]

on a related note, I've seen two varieties of the availability at 12 rule:

12, 10R,8F

Or

12, 12R, 12F


What do you use?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

on a related note, I've seen two varieties of the availability at 12 rule:

12, 10R,8F

Or

12, 12R, 12F


What do you use?

Availability 12 is availability 12... Regardless of whether it is restricted or forbidden, or not... it is still availability 12...
Never heard of the First option that you provided, where is that from?

My Two Cents...

[Caadium]

Well, my group had a problem with the overuse of street and squatter, so I implemented the following.

Street: Availability 4, No vehicles, No gear over 5,000 Nuyen
Squatter: Availability 8, No gear over 10,000 Nuyen
Low: Availability 10, No gear over 45,000 Nuyen
Middle: Availability 12, No gear price restrictions
High: Availability 14, No gear price restrictions.
Luxury: Availability 16, No gear price restrictions.

This is an interesting idea, but one that I wouldn't consider for my games. When I GM I simply make sure that a character's theme makes sense, otherwise I make them change it. I do make the players adhere to the availability 12 and restricted gear rules, but again they must be part of the theme and background.

Also remember, you can use those lifestyles against a player. They want to spend 200k on a vehicles and toys, but have a squatter lifestyle, there are a few ways to handle it. Suggest that they pick a lifestyle that better fits the gear they are sporting, if they don't then demonstrate what you meant as the game starts. They walk outside to find their precious vehicles stolen, without tires, vandalized, etc. Similarly, if they aren't as blatant as the first example there are other things that tend to stand out. That 3000 cred outfit you wear on the street makes you stand out; and a gang probably doesn't even know or care that its just armor. If this doesn't work for you, simply say no to things that you think are out of line for a character, even if RAW allows it; sometimes the job of a GM is to say no.

My problem with the different availability based on lifestyle is that lifestyle is a representation of current living conditions; not where you came from. You could have a street type character who has chosen to live above their past (say by buying 1 month of medium lifestyle) and is now caught in the wage-slave like rat-race of trying to keep up. On the flip side, there are plenty of characters that are now in the shadows because things have gone bad in their life. These people often had much higher lifestyle and standing than they do now. The melee fighting type character that was once a professional wrestler but has fallen out of graces of folks like the McMahon's is an example of a character that could be starting back at low lifestyle, but have some higher availability gear (in my games anyway).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well Said... Much Better than what I had...

[Method]

However, Entertainment is strictly optional... Food serves nothing but to keep one alive (whether it is the basest crap or the most luxurious Exotic Food is irrelevant for staying alive)... Who cares about Wireless or matrix services (all I would need is a minor Matrix account -available for 50 Nuyen Monthly)... Nice things get in the way of escape and evasion... the less you have to worry about, the more free you are...

Thats a bit metagamey, if you ask me, which touches on the reason why overcannon presented the rule. Its easy to say as the player "my character needs no comforts", just like "my character doesn't flinch in the face of gunfire". The reality is most real people couldn't live that way- yes there is a rare breed that can, but most require some comfort.

Plus moving too much when you should lay low can be just as dangerous because it can cause you to make mistakes...

[LamplightSlasher]

In the game I am currently prepping... I have instituted a 30 BP cap for starting gear, no Forbidden gear, nothing past 12. I'm awarding free contacts though- up to three for each player. My own test characters have still been beefy enough to play with, and controlling the contacts is giving me some nice storytelling options.

[overcannon]

This is an interesting idea, but one that I wouldn't consider for my games. When I GM I simply make sure that a character's theme makes sense, otherwise I make them change it. I do make the players adhere to the availability 12 and restricted gear rules, but again they must be part of the theme and background.

Also remember, you can use those lifestyles against a player. They want to spend 200k on a vehicles and toys, but have a squatter lifestyle, there are a few ways to handle it. Suggest that they pick a lifestyle that better fits the gear they are sporting, if they don't then demonstrate what you meant as the game starts. They walk outside to find their precious vehicles stolen, without tires, vandalized, etc. Similarly, if they aren't as blatant as the first example there are other things that tend to stand out. That 3000 cred outfit you wear on the street makes you stand out; and a gang probably doesn't even know or care that its just armor. If this doesn't work for you, simply say no to things that you think are out of line for a character, even if RAW allows it; sometimes the job of a GM is to say no.

My problem with the different availability based on lifestyle is that lifestyle is a representation of current living conditions; not where you came from. You could have a street type character who has chosen to live above their past (say by buying 1 month of medium lifestyle) and is now caught in the wage-slave like rat-race of trying to keep up. On the flip side, there are plenty of characters that are now in the shadows because things have gone bad in their life. These people often had much higher lifestyle and standing than they do now. The melee fighting type character that was once a professional wrestler but has fallen out of graces of folks like the McMahon's is an example of a character that could be starting back at low lifestyle, but have some higher availability gear (in my games anyway).

Now I understand that my gear to lifestyle table does not necessarily allow for all types of background possible. What I will say is that my group contains some of the finest power-gamers, rules-lawyers and meta-tacticians around, myself included. If you want justification of that, my group moved to SR4 because we had thoroughly beaten D&D 3.5. This in not an exaggeration, and I can go into detail if you wish to challenge this. As a group, we have a thorough appreciation for well written, balanced and self consistent rules situation, and we derive much of our fun from exploring the parameters of a given rules set. That said, most of our recent adventures have been one shot with more cursing than usual, so I wrote up some RP guidelines along with some new crunchy rules to combat the problems as I saw them.

From the mechanical aspect:
Street is free.
Squatter costs 0.1BP per month
Low costs 0.4BP per month
Middle costs 1BP per month
High costs 2BP per month
Luxury costs 20BP per month

As a result, I find that street and squatter should be fairly heavily penalized. Low is also down there in terms of cost, so it bears a lighter penalty. However, I recognize that shadowrunners are likely from a poorer environment, so Low, Middle and High are comparable. If anyone griped at me I could just point them to the mechanics matrix and tell them that for just 2BP, they would be permitted to purchase better gear than they could get in a standard setting.

So far, the team has made it through 4 sessions, and I have seen the best roleplaying that my group has ever done.

Also, the my group's general opinion of backstory is that "Backstory is most often a combination of cover and justification for a player to min/max his character as hard as possible while still allowing him to feel superior to a powergamer." That said any character in my group's recent memory that had shown up with a backstory has been the most broken kill machine ever, so we have had reason to distrust backstory justification anyways. for groups that have a more serious roleplaying element, my system is almost certainly unnecessary, if not just a needless burden, but for a more crunch related group, it could certainly be useful.

Besides, if you really want one fancy piece of gear, I was still allowing the "Restricted Gear" quality to lie outside this system.

Apologies I I sound a mite bit defensive, but I went through a good bit of trouble customising it for my group.

[BlueMax]

Apologies I I sound a mite bit defensive, but I went through a good bit of trouble customising it for my group.

If it works for your group, keep it.

[ElFenrir]

We did away with using it at all at chargen, and simply abide by the ''stick with your concept'' rule. Even then, we are lean. Want the PAC but only take a street lifestyle? Have fun keeping it safe and hidden with no security. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

We like people to be able to make the character in their heads, and some concepts simply have access to higher Availability than others, just from their occupations, IMO-but at the same time, in RAW, a ganger still has access to availability 12 stuff. So, doing away with it just made it easier. (Also, keep in mind, that the people around the table are mostly old friends, who have gamed 14+ years together, as well as new folks who are very cool. The ''honor system'' works best in this state.)

Not to mention some of the Availability things/Legality codes don't make much sense to us as well. Availability has the problem, IMO, of not necessarily representing ''power'' but ''difficulty to aquire''. There are some items that are very difficult to aquire, and flat-out illegal(titanium bone lacing), and it has a completely legal and easy to get counterpart in Bone Density, which is the damned same thing; the former gives a bit of armor, the latter gives an extra die to damage resistance. (Bone lacing is cheaper but harder on the body-however, Alphaware Titanium Bone Lacing has the exact same essence and nuyen cost as Bone Density 4.)

People on these very forums speak of APDS as being ''not that hot and sub par to other ammo types'', yet it's Availability 16. Stick n Shock, widely called very powerful if not broken, can be loaded up on. I could probably find a few guns that run ratings a bit high or low for what they can do.

In other words, while I can appreciate making things hard to get in certain games, it should more be up to the GM. Availability 12-even sticking to that a person can get some very, very, very broken things(i've both seen it and done it in some test builds) and just because someone does not use it, does it mean they will end up more unbalanced. (As an odd side note, I actually find that someone who blows a lot of cash on one huge, expensive, high Availability purchase doesn't have a lot left for the cheaper, broken combos. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

[Caadium]

If it works for your group, keep it.

That is the truest bit, and one I forgot to add. I wasn't trying to criticize the availability by lifestyle houserule. In fact, I fully understood the reasoning for it and am sure it works for your group. My point was just to offer an alternate way to look at things for the OP.

[Fuchs]

In the game I am currently prepping... I have instituted a 30 BP cap for starting gear, no Forbidden gear, nothing past 12. I'm awarding free contacts though- up to three for each player. My own test characters have still been beefy enough to play with, and controlling the contacts is giving me some nice storytelling options.

That seems to favor mages and adepts a lot.

[Wanderer]

Personally, I tend to ignore the Availability rule for 'ware only. I only use money to limit 'ware purchases. That rule interferes with character concepts like the escaped guinea pig that fled from megacorp lab being chock-full of cutting-edge 'ware. Availability is a great rule for weapons and other gear, but sucks for 'ware.

[Eleint]

Personally, I tend to ignore the Availability rule for 'ware only. I only use money to limit 'ware purchases. That rule interferes with character concepts like the escaped guinea pig that fled from megacorp lab being chock-full of cutting-edge 'ware. Availability is a great rule for weapons and other gear, but sucks for 'ware.

I do something similar. I tend to ignore availability as long as the player isn't abusing it. So if they want Titanium Bone Lacing, or a pair of glasses with sensory mods that just happen to hit 13 or something, go for it.

On the other hand, if they want something incredibly silly and heinous, that's something else.

[EvilP]

That's prety much how I run it as well. Anything at 12 or below is unrestricted at chargen, anything above that and you have to discuss it with the GM.

[crazyconscript]

So far we have run by raw, with 12 availability at chargen and 20 with restricted gear. However i do like the look of overcannon's system if i ever ended up gaming with a group of "powergamers". I admit that some people might call me a power gamer (i have played DnD, had a shit GM, us players knew the game better than him and we broke him pretty quick (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ). Most of the people i play with currently dont really pay much attention to the whole (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) aspect of things and simply love to play the game, making in character decisions quite well. As such availability wasnt that much of a problem at chargen. However trying to track down stuff after that is their problem. Our demo guy is getting quite frustrated at how long it is taking him to replenish his stocks and acquire plastic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) , so he is using more innovative methods to get things to go boom lately