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> Why go for a laser sight
PatB
post Apr 13 2009, 04:03 PM
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After reading the post about ambidexterity, I was wondering why would anyone go for a laser sight.

Unless I'm missing something, both don't require cyberware (compared to previous editions), Smartlink cost more (modified gun, goggles, etc), Smartlink provide better bonuses (+2 dice, weapon info, quicker eject, etc). Please enlight me. Tx.
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Stahlseele
post Apr 13 2009, 04:05 PM
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'Cause it's cool looking? O.o
And in 3rd Ed Laser Pointer with Low-Light and Maginification was superior to Smart on all Ranges.
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DireRadiant
post Apr 13 2009, 04:24 PM
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Because you want one?
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Medicineman
post Apr 13 2009, 04:33 PM
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1)Disadvantage. Sim Sense Disorientation
2)its an alternative to Smart Link
and its better to have one and need not,than need one and have not
3)Sometimes you encounter GMs that insist on playing Low-Level&Low Tech
these might consider Smartlink as inapropriate .So if you want to play with these,all you can use to get a small advantage is a Laser Pointer


HokaHey
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paws2sky
post Apr 13 2009, 05:08 PM
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1) Intimidation. Because a red dot hovering over your <body part> has more of a psychological impact than simply pointing a gun at someone. You, as the potential victim, know exactly where the bullet is going to go and your mind will start working out all the ugly possibilities.

2) Backup. What happens when you lose your goggles/glasses/contacts and all of a sudden your smartgun doesn't mean frag-all? Doesn't affect cybereyes of course, but not everyone uses those anymore.

3) Misinformation. Someone sees you using a laser sight. They assume you don't have a smartlink. Why would you have both? No smartlink means you're low rent muscle, a magician, or have some reason not to use one.

Just a couple ideas.

-paws
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DireRadiant
post Apr 13 2009, 05:11 PM
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We can always go with the cheap not as effective optimal option doesn't make sense to me so why bother having it in the game and shouldn't we remove it thread.
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PatB
post Apr 13 2009, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 13 2009, 01:08 PM) *
3) Misinformation. Someone sees you using a laser sight. They assume you don't have a smartlink. Why would you have both? No smartlink means you're low rent muscle, a magician, or have some reason not to use one.

Just a couple ideas.


And I kinda like this one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif) Tx a bunch.
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Draco18s
post Apr 13 2009, 05:53 PM
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Using multiple weapons. Smart link bonus only applies to one weapon at a time (the rules are unclear, but this is how I understand them).
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Adarael
post Apr 13 2009, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 13 2009, 08:05 AM) *
'Cause it's cool looking? O.o
And in 3rd Ed Laser Pointer with Low-Light and Maginification was superior to Smart on all Ranges.


...How do you figure? -1 TN vs -2 TN, only effective to 50m. What am I missing here?
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Larme
post Apr 13 2009, 05:57 PM
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Regarding misinformation, I don't get it. Yeah, it would trick someone to thinking you're not as dangerous if you don't have a laser sight. But most people opt for internal smartlinks anyway, since they're a less obvious way to tote a restricted mod. Wouldn't it have the same effect to point a bare gun at them, and keep the guessing whether you're a smartlinked badass, or a hopeless boob?

Plus, as far as the system goes, what does it mean that you think someone is less dangerous? You'll still get your full reaction roll if they shoot at you. I guess you could rule as the GM that they won't use full defense if they think you suck, but that seems kinda silly to me. Someone shoots at me, and I'm not in cover, I really don't care if they're a navy SEAL or a 10 year old kid. Even a kid with no training can shoot me, and I'm going to try just as hard to make myself a hard target. The only difference is I have a much worse chance of avoiding being shot with the SEAL. Plus, full defense is basically a metagame issue, you choose to full defense based on how many hits are coming at you. It's part of what keeps 4th ed from being ridiculously lethal. It's not realistic, and that's the problem with a quasi-realistic notion like lulling someone into thinking you suck with a fake laser sight. The system just doesn't account for it.

Now, you're on the money with intimidation. A laser sight would make someone more afraid, because they know when the gun is pointing at them. Imagine a guy starting cross-eyed at a laser dot on the tip of his nose. That guy is freaked out. He's probably more freaked out than when a gun is simply pointing in his direction, and he has no idea if it's going to hit his nose or his shoulder. And misinformation is pretty much incompatible with intimidation, someone isn't going to be more afraid based on a dot on their body, but also less afraid because they think people who use dots are wusses.
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Heath Robinson
post Apr 13 2009, 06:05 PM
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The real reason? Tracer ammunition which, if it hasn't been errata'd out, stacks with the Laser and provides a +2 bonus when you're firing Long Burst for a total of +3. If you're going for a Full Burst then it all stacks up to +4. Tracers are not compatible with the Smartgun bonus.
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Fix-it
post Apr 13 2009, 06:05 PM
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they make handy pointers for operation briefings.
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Zaranthan
post Apr 13 2009, 06:05 PM
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Full burst with tracer rounds,
with Smartlink: +3 dice
with Laser Sight: +4 dice

It's like an extra point of recoil compensation. Particularly nice when you're chipping Heavy Weapons and can't afford to glitch with Ex-Ex.
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Muspellsheimr
post Apr 13 2009, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 13 2009, 10:53 AM) *
Using multiple weapons. Smart link bonus only applies to one weapon at a time (the rules are unclear, but this is how I understand them).

You do not get the bonus for Smartlink when splitting your dice pool for firing with two (or more) weapons.

You also do not get the bonus from Laser Sight when splitting your dice pool for firing with two (or more) weapons.
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Muspellsheimr
post Apr 13 2009, 06:06 PM
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Edit: nevermind
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Draco18s
post Apr 13 2009, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 13 2009, 01:05 PM) *
You do not get the bonus for Smartlink when splitting your dice pool for firing with two (or more) weapons.

You also do not get the bonus from Laser Sight when splitting your dice pool for firing with two (or more) weapons.


I only recalled that a friend of mine figured out someplace it ended up being better, and his latest character is a dual wielding cyber-elf and I had thought I recalled that character using laser sights (it's been like 3 weeks since we last played, and longer since he found the one spot it worked better).

Apparently it was the tracer rounds in full auto.
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Adarael
post Apr 13 2009, 06:11 PM
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Yeah, but didn't Tracer Rounds lower your weapon's power, since you had to put in one tracer for every three or four bullets?
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Medicineman
post Apr 13 2009, 06:13 PM
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no they don't and they're the only ones to be mixed with other Ammo
(i'm using them with my Nartaki Char)

with a mixed Dance
Medicineman
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Degausser
post Apr 13 2009, 07:13 PM
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I always viewed laser sights as the poor man's Smartlink. The real reason is probably because they are easier to procure and cheaper. Sure, it doesn't matter to a runner, but what about gangers? As a ganger, what if you couldn't get your hands on the smartlink retinal mod, or smartlinked goggles? Let alone the 400 nuyen for the external Smartlink? Well then, plop down 100 bucks for the laser sight, better than nothing.

Plus, if you are unaugmented, laser sights have another advantage: they don't need extra equipment. If you don't have cyber, and your goggles get taken/broken, they your Smartgun is useless. Laser sights always provide bonuses, whereas smartlinks do not.
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MYST1C
post Apr 13 2009, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (Adarael @ Apr 13 2009, 07:57 PM) *
...How do you figure? -1 TN vs -2 TN, only effective to 50m. What am I missing here?
IIRC laser markers had a higher range when used in the dark - 50m was the range in bright daylight. Plus, lasers could be used with scopes. Smartgun was incompatible.
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Adarael
post Apr 13 2009, 09:03 PM
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Maybe it's because almost all of my SR3 characters had a propensity for single-shot weapons that this love of laser sights escapes me, but I'm almost positive of two things:
1) With rifles, no laser sight can reach the distances required where scopes have an actual effect. This may be due to the fact that I usually was using sniper rifles, though.
2) Scopes may be incompatible with smartguns, but I didn't think vision magnification cyberware was - which was the other thing I almost always had.

Still, the last time I looked dilligently at SR3 rules was 2005 or so, and consequently I may be misremembering.

I'm still sure the Fields of Fire rules indicate weapon power drop if you load in Tracer rounds...
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Stahlseele
post Apr 13 2009, 09:11 PM
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There were High-Power Laser-Pointers, range of 500m, which is good enough for Pistols, SMG's, Shotguns and Hunting- and Assault-Rifles.
Also, Built in Vision Magnification 3 meant shooting at targets as if they were at short range, even if they were at long range.
And THEN there came the -1 from Laser-Pointer. So, in effect, you had lowered the target number to hit from 7 to 3.
And for less Essence/Money than the Smartlink would have cost you.
Only at Short Range, where the -2 to TN from the Smartlink made your TN a solid 2 the Smartlink was better.
But not by that much either, because, seriously? 2 or 3? Not such a big difference in the number of times either one comes up.
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Adonidus
post Apr 13 2009, 09:59 PM
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QUOTE
they make handy pointers for operation briefings.

And we have a winner!
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Aaron
post Apr 13 2009, 10:07 PM
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Laser sights are, I think, far less susceptible to hacking.
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Stahlseele
post Apr 13 2009, 10:16 PM
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Of course, how could i forget that? O.o
you simply CAN'T hack a single LED with battery and on/off-switch x.x . .
Although . . you could use it for morse code O.o
As for the operation briefing: i am so stealing that ^^

Hrm, figure this is as good as anywhere else to ask:
does SOMEONE know where i can find the gun-cam rules for SR3?
i've read through the core book, man and machine and canon companion.
could not, for the life of me, find the frigging stuff. . .
How's it work?
what do i need?
Obviously, Gun-Cam on Gun . .
Something to view the images with.
But do i only need the smartlink to transmit?
Or do i have to DNI it?
does the smartlink suffice for viewing the gun-cam images?
or do i have to implant image link for that?
Do i get Smartlink-Bonus for that thing?
Can i hold it arond a corner and get the -2 to shooting it?
Some simple page references would be enough for me ._.
i may not actually get to ever play again, but this has irked me the whole frigging time i actually got to play <.<. .
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