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> Availability of Strato-9 and Steel Lynx
meus
post Jan 14 2004, 06:24 PM
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Hello again,

I think the converstion guide is way of on its availabilty for Strato-9 and Steel Lynx. Theese two drones are with their availability of 8 the most powerfull drones a player can start the game with. IMHO as a gm they are too powerfull compared to other drones with a similar availability.

Looking first at the Strato-9.
It has a sensor of 5 a external hardpoint with recoil stuff and a MMG. All this for 34500 newyen and at avail 8. Sure it does not have armour, but i mean why bother with other spotters, it has a sensor of 5. Btw does it include the gun? I rule that it does not, otherwise it is totally out of control.

then at Steel Lynx.
This baby has armour 9 (and yes that is hardend), a signature of 6 and it comes with a mini turret. Put a ingram valiant in that and you have a small tank that is way overpowered for its availabiliy of 8.

So what should the Availability of theese babies be? I am not sure, thats why i am askin :)

mvh
Bjarte
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Rev
post Jan 14 2004, 06:28 PM
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It includes the gun, thats why it says it includes the gun unlike pretty much every other drone.

What would be more reasonable? Maybe 12 on each of them. The strato-9 should probably cost twice as much as well (and have a hefty street index).

Edit: not that you should not feel free to say it doesn't include the gun.
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spotlite
post Jan 14 2004, 06:30 PM
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The final say on a character is for the GM. If a player has bought something you don't agree they should, or realistically could have, then say no. Explain why, but stick to your decision. If it will unbalance your game, don't allow it.
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 14 2004, 06:33 PM
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I'd say they're just fine. Lone Star uses Strato-9s like popcorn for exactly the reasons you describe.
There are dozens of threads on this subject, but suffice it to say that the ease with which these drones can be obtained is more bad news for the players than good news.

~J
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toturi
post Jan 15 2004, 12:26 AM
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Then perhaps you would do well to consider this: If a rigger charactor is played by a new player and that new player is not familiar with the customisation rules, so what does he do if he needs to provide fire support? He needs to buy a drone or two with existing weapons or firm/hardpoints, especially if you DO NOT ALLOW custom/customised vehicles or drones. So tell me again why you are so intent on screwing your rigger PCs?

Go create a viable rigger charactor by the book, see how difficult it is in the first place. Or for that matter create all the PC archetypes and see how difficult it is for each type. Personally, I do not think people should GM(at least do not mess with Chargen or Avail) unless they have created and played all the archtypes in SR3. Sorry if this sounded harsh but I feel most of the SR3 rules are (for game balance purposes) balanced on a knife edge.
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Grey
post Jan 15 2004, 12:30 AM
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Heh, what is a fun things to do, is buy a Strato-9 and then take the MMG out of it for your troll to carry around. ;)

Replace the MMG with a sniper rifle or something and use the Strato as a spotter/assassin's tool.
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 15 2004, 01:03 AM
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Which is the point at which you add in some common sense and rule that the MMG was never ever designed to be used by a metahuman and requires extensive modification to add grips, stocks, a manual trigger, etc.
And yes, drones+rifles=pain.

~J
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Grey
post Jan 15 2004, 01:07 AM
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Sure, but if you have Heavy Weapon B/R you can add the grips, stocks, and manual trigger back onto it. ;)
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Tziluthi
post Jan 15 2004, 01:43 AM
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Or buy a gunsmith contact, and in any case it allows you to have an otherwise unobtainable weapon at character creation. Meus, you might want to swap the MMG for a LMG, just to keep things consistent within the rules.
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sidekick
post Jan 15 2004, 05:24 AM
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Yeah, both the Steel Lynx and the Statos-9 are obscene. Especially the Steel Lynx... that thing is a Tank. Nothing short of a Panther Assualt cannon is going to stop one of those things, and since the Rigger operating it gets BOTH his Control and his Combat, the thing is nearly impossible to hit. The Steel Lynx isn't that big, so it can go inside most buildings and reek havoc.

I even have problems with giving players Doberman since even Armor 6 is enough to make most vehicles invincible (because of vehicle rules, you need to hit them with over 12 points of power to even get a chance to dent them).

If you are uncomfortable allowing them, you have the right as a GM not to allow them.
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RedmondLarry
post Jan 15 2004, 05:36 AM
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sidekick, I don't understand what you mean by "the Rigger operating it gets BOTH his Control and his Combat". What's this?
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Lilt
post Jan 15 2004, 05:43 AM
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Don't forget the Ares Guardian! It may cost a bomb (100k) but it's a vectored thrust drone that's indoors-friendly, has 12 armor, sensor 4, pilot 3, sig 7, and a mini-turret. Now that's a nasty all-rounder, all with an availability of 5/5 days...
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Fortune
post Jan 15 2004, 05:53 AM
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QUOTE (OurTeam)
sidekick, I don't understand what you mean by "the Rigger operating it gets BOTH his Control and his Combat". What's this?

He is refering to the Rigger's Control and Combat Pools.
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toturi
post Jan 15 2004, 06:51 AM
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QUOTE (Lilt)
Don't forget the Ares Guardian! It may cost a bomb (100k) but it's a vectored thrust drone that's indoors-friendly, has 12 armor, sensor 4, pilot 3, sig 7, and a mini-turret. Now that's a nasty all-rounder, all with an availability of 5/5 days...

Check the Official Errata. The Avail is now 11/11 days...

Know your errata...
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The Jopp
post Jan 15 2004, 08:10 AM
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The Steel Lynx is quite balanced actually because once the opposition sees it they will go AV all over it's ass. And remember, Drones have LOW body scores. A SL have a body of 2, that's a maximum of 4D6 for soaking if you have any combat pool/control pool left.

So, If I use a basic Ruger super warhawk with Ex-Explosive that thing will be toast. With 6 successes we have a D wound on the SL and it will have a TN of 3+ to stage down, it CAN'T stage it down because of that low body so it will take damage. Then you fire a second time. An average streetsam would probably use 12D6 on the first attack with a TN of 2+ so we should count my example with a few more successes.

That's one of my aggravations with vehicle rules, you can't improve the actual hull of the vehicle and increase it's body rating.
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DigitalMage
post Jan 15 2004, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE (The Jopp)
And remember, Drones have LOW body scores. A SL have a body of 2, that's a maximum of 4D6 for soaking if you have any combat pool/control pool left.

I'd have to check, but I don't think the amount of COntrol or Combat Pool you use for Dodging or Damage Resistance is limited to the Body of the vehicle.
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sidekick
post Jan 15 2004, 11:42 AM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 15 2004, 03:10 AM)

So, If I use a basic Ruger super warhawk with Ex-Explosive that thing will be toast. With 6 successes we have a D wound on the SL and it will have a TN of 3+ to stage down, it CAN'T stage it down because of that low body so it will take damage. Then you fire a second time. An average streetsam would probably use 12D6 on the first attack with a TN of 2+ so we should count my example with a few more successes.

You know this would be a nice scenario if it weren't for the fact that Steel Lynxes function like vehicles for damage (all drones do). Hence that 12D from your Ruger with Ex Rounds becomes a 6S because vehicles always half power and lower damage level by 1. And guess what, that 6 isn't enough to puncture the Steel Lynx's Hardened Armor of 9, so it just richochets off harmlessly

To take down a Lynx you either need to use AV (and an initial base power higher then 8 ), or hit it with an attack with a power higher then 18. These things are mini-tanks.
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The Jopp
post Jan 15 2004, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE (sidekick @ Jan 15 2004, 11:42 AM)
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 15 2004, 03:10 AM)

So, If I use a basic Ruger super warhawk with Ex-Explosive that thing will be toast. With 6 successes we have a D wound on the SL and it will have a TN of 3+ to stage down, it CAN'T stage it down because of that low body so it will take damage. Then you fire a second time. An average streetsam would probably use 12D6 on the first attack with a TN of 2+ so we should count my example with a few more successes.

You know this would be a nice scenario if it weren't for the fact that Steel Lynxes function like vehicles for damage (all drones do). Hence that 12D from your Ruger with Ex Rounds becomes a 6S because vehicles always half power and lower damage level by 1. And guess what, that 6 isn't enough to puncture the Steel Lynx's Hardened Armor of 9, so it just richochets off harmlessly

To take down a Lynx you either need to use AV (and an initial base power higher then 8 ), or hit it with an attack with a power higher then 18. These things are mini-tanks.

DOH! My bad, i made a miscalculation.

About combat pool and control pool VS soaking damage.
Why shouldn't it be limited, it is for characters isn't it? Should be the same for vehicles.
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Tiralee
post Jan 15 2004, 02:21 PM
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Mmmmm, AV Rounds.....

If people are running a Lynx in enclosed areas (Office buildings are a favored death-trap) why not toss a couple of HE Grenades along at it? Or as the cheap-ass demolition experts favour, a nice (4-10 kg) wad of plastique at it?
At $80 a kg at character gen, most players have a couple of kg's tucked away "Just in case" (In regards to the pyro-demolition nut, about 800 kgs.<-NEVER ask.)

Your average troll can bounce a wad of this fun-sized goodness (Stairwells are favorite) with the ever-so-sophisticated "White Phosphorus Grenade as a detonator" quite a ways - and believe me, you don't have to get too accurate with the aim. Just far enough (and around a corner or two.)

Of course, the main advantage is always position and location - you're not going to cut it open with a combat axe (unless dikoted and wielded by Krondor Dur Barbarian).


Well, that was quite a ramble - In any case, the right tools make the job easier. Hello AV rounds and HVAR. No more Lynx. And you've got an easy way out, too!


L;
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Lilt
post Jan 15 2004, 04:28 PM
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Yes, a hefty block of C4 would do it (I am talking in game terms here, not RL explosives), 10kg to make sure. Just how hefty a block of C4 you'd need depends on wether a bounced shockwave adds to the 'base power' in vehicle armor terms (rather than a BF/FA/Ammo type mod), and wether you let the demolitions expert increase the power against the drone using a demolitions roll.

I'd be weary about letting someone increase the power using the demolitions skill as IMHO that represents taking time to place explosives on the target being damaged strategically. I'd probably still allow it, but at a penalty.
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BitBasher
post Jan 15 2004, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE
"White Phosphorus Grenade as a detonator"
That wouldn't work. You can light Compound on fire and it will ignote, but it won't explode.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 15 2004, 04:51 PM
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Yup, just plain heat/fire won't ignite much else than gunpowder, using real life sense.

And if you don't like making sense but enjoy the SR rules, plastic explosives still can't be detonated that way because they need electricity (I have no idea why, but that's how it seems to be by canon).

My group carries HEAT grenades for the GLs and a few LAWs on all the high-threat jobs just in case something armored shows up. No AV ammo for small arms in my games (because it just doesn't make sense), otherwise they'd probably be packing that too (they've got several HC weapons fixers and several army logistics contacts at level 2).
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moosegod
post Jan 15 2004, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
And if you don't like making sense but enjoy the SR rules, plastic explosives still can't be detonated that way because they need electricity (I have no idea why, but that's how it seems to be by canon).

Well, that's how it works in this world as well.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 15 2004, 05:02 PM
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No. It's not. Plastic explosives are not detonated by electric current. The only way that could possibly work would be to hit it with something akin to a lightning bolt -- quick, extremely high voltage and amper rating shock. That might cause enough heat and sudden pressure change to detonate it, but it'd still require insane luck.

Plastic explosives are detonated by secondary explosives, for example some forms of gunpowder, which are generally detonated by heat/flame (I can't think of a single exception, but I'm not an explosive expert and there could be some).
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BitBasher
post Jan 15 2004, 05:19 PM
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Right Austere. Im not sure why everything thinks that voltage dentonates compund x in real life. I wonder where they got that from...
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