Ghosts in the machine Options

[Tanegar]

So I'm sitting here reading Count Zero for the eleventh or twelfth time, and I'm at the bit where Finn and Lucas are talking about the loa in the matrix. Has anything like this ever shown up in Shadowrun? Are there rogue AIs, or maybe even actual spirits, in the Matrix?

[GreyBrother]

Paragons.

[The Jake]

This has been touched on in numerous novels IIRC.

I vaguely remember something about a Ghost In The Machine called 'Alice' (Roxborough's ex wife?). It's been awhile now...

- J.

[GreyBrother]

Oh, i forgot that little something in Unwired, the actual "Ghosts in the Machine", AI's who believe themselves to be persons and the AI's themselves and Free Sprites. But Paragons are the thing that rang in my mind when i read "loa of the matrix"

[Dragnar]

There are AIs, sprites (native "electronic spirits"), actual downloaded metahuman consciousnesses (sp?), paragons, the resonance (whatever that is) etc.
Really, the electronic world is inhabited as much as the astral one.

[Muspellsheimr]

Random Post # 11

[The_Vanguard]

AIs have been around in Shadowrun since 1st edition (Morgan and Mirage). The latest infos and rules for all weird Matrix phenomena are in Unwired (and partially in Emergence). These books feature AIs (further subdivided into different categories), free and wild Sprites and e-ghosts. Paragons are their own class and not even necessarily real entities (they are for technomancers what the mentor spirits are for mages).

Spoiler Alert for William Gibson's Count Zero

[ Spoiler ]

Gibson's Loa in the matrix are the fractured mind of an AI that split into different personalities. There is nothing in the official fluff like that, but it's not impossible to incorporate it into your campaign. However, the e-Loas are described as striking bargains with hackers, providing them considerable power online. This does fit the Paragons, but these are not as present and involved as the Loa and are only available for technomancers. That's just a tiny crowd compared to Gibson's novels where it is suddenly SOTA to have a Loa watch your back.

The AI Deus, on the other hand, apparently managed to awaken technomancer-like powers in his subordinates, although these only worked within his home system. It might be conceivable that the new generation of AIs manages to perfect this process, learning how to give "normal" hackers a kind of spoofed access to the deep resonance.

[GreyBrother]

Oh what Deus did was quite simple. Most of his followers with "otakulike" abilities just didn't realize that Deus himself "did the matrixstuff" for them. As for the new AIs to replicate that effect, just push their homenode past Response 10 and then read the stuff about creating UV Nodes in Unwired.

[The_Vanguard]

Most of his followers with "otakulike" abilities just didn't realize that Deus himself "did the matrixstuff" for them.

I thought that this had never been really explained. What is your source?

As for the new AIs to replicate that effect, just push their homenode past Response 10 and then read the stuff about creating UV Nodes in Unwired.

Heh, that's a pretty clever idea (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Synner667]

Spoiler Alert for William Gibson's Count Zero

[ Spoiler ]

Gibson's Loa in the matrix are the fractured mind of an AI that split into different personalities. There is nothing in the official fluff like that, but it's not impossible to incorporate it into your campaign. However, the e-Loas are described as striking bargains with hackers, providing them considerable power online. This does fit the Paragons, but these are not as present and involved as the Loa and are only available for technomancers. That's just a tiny crowd compared to Gibson's novels where it is suddenly SOTA to have a Loa watch your back.

About William G's Count Zero AIs...

[ Spoiler ]

Not totally correct, actually.
Neuromancer becomes the whole of Cyberspace and interacts with an alien equivilent [as per the end of Neuromancer].
That interaction caused Neuromancer/Cyberspace to "evolve" and fracture into what people started calling the loas.

Who knows what would have happened without that interaction.

[GreyBrother]

I thought that this had never been really explained. What is your source?

Wait... good grief, i don't really know if this could be sourced or i made it up... sorry.

[Demonseed Elite]

Technically the book sources disagree with GreyBrother, though to be fair, it's never explained how AI-created otaku work. Source is page 136 of Matrix:

Certain AI have been able to convert metahumans into otaku. How these AIs have managed this trick is unexplained--some believe these AIs actually tap into the Deep Resonance or manifest it, while others postulate that these AIs manage to duplicate the process independently.

An otaku created by an AI has the same abilities as one created by the Deep Resonance. However, their abilities usually contain at least one serious flaw. In most cases, the otaku's abilities are lost when he works outside the AI's influence. For example, otaku created by the AI Deus within the Renraku Arcology's Matrix systems have proved unable to use their Channels and Complex Forms outside the arcology.

So, it's not impossible that AI-created otaku work because the AI is shouldering some of the ability.

[hobgoblin]

About William G's Count Zero AIs...

[ Spoiler ]

Not totally correct, actually.
Neuromancer becomes the whole of Cyberspace and interacts with an alien equivilent [as per the end of Neuromancer].
That interaction caused Neuromancer/Cyberspace to "evolve" and fracture into what people started calling the loas.

Who knows what would have happened without that interaction.

[ Spoiler ]

more like a AI in neuromancer got liberated, then could not find a way to survive online as a single entity and fractured, the fractures ended up emulating loa's (count zero), and in the end encountered a signal from beyond the solar system and went about "uploading" themselves and some e-ghost in the direction of the signal (mona lisa overdrive)...

[GreyBrother]

Demonseed Elite: Yeah, you know how that is. You get your Fanon right and spread it until it becomes official, though it was unintentional in my case. *g*

[crash2029]

Ghosts in the machine that I am aware of:

A.I.'s Pulsar, Goldenboy, Rufus, et al
God-like A.I.'s: Deus, Mirage, Morgan/Megara(sp?)
E-ghosts: Alex O' Keefe, Captain Chaos (maybe)
Free Sprites: Taske
Sprites
Technomancers: Netcat et al
Other: ?

[DoomFrog]

Tanegar,

To answer your question, it depends on what you actually think the Loa are.

SR does have e-Ghosts, some are people who's minds got caught in the matrix during the crash.

There are AIs like Dues, Mirage, and Morgan. And there are people who believe them to be gods (like the Loa of Count Zero). There is a group that believe there is a Loa type being called the Deep Resonace.

But in the end there aren't any In-Game rules or stats of any Loa-like character.

[ Spoiler ]

Actually Nueromancer didn't do anything. It was Wintermute that had Case crack the programing and merged with Nueromancer.

I don't think Wintermute's comment that it had become the matrix was suppose to imply that it was in control of everything. But that the nature of an AI program doesn't allow for a distinction between it and other programs once it has "read" them. Once Wintermute was free, it absorbed all the information on the matrix, and thus "became" everything, "The sum total of all the works."

Also I thought the Loas in Count Zero were explained to be AIs, and that the one helping Count Zero was the one left over on the space staion making all the boxes?

[The_Vanguard]

So, it's not impossible that AI-created otaku work because the AI is shouldering some of the ability.

It just occured to me that Deus started out as the Arcology SCIRE, whose job was to lend an invisible hand to the matrix users. It would make perfect sense for the AI to continue its base function in this way. Deus has always been a provider of individualized assisted matrix access, even as creator of the Network.

[GreyBrother]

I actually liked that 3rd Edition intermix between AIs and Otaku. SR4 can't give me that since nothing indicates that AIs have something to do with resonance. They are like mundane free spirits.

[Demonseed Elite]

Demonseed Elite: Yeah, you know how that is. You get your Fanon right and spread it until it becomes official, though it was unintentional in my case. *g*

That's basically how I started freelancing! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I actually liked that 3rd Edition intermix between AIs and Otaku. SR4 can't give me that since nothing indicates that AIs have something to do with resonance. They are like mundane free spirits.

I'll admit I miss the old AIs a lot. Though there's only so long we could have gone on with them before it got ridiculous with god-AIs everywhere. The new AIs are more flexible with their lower power levels.

I miss the otaku as an NPC plot device. I think one of the biggest SR3 mistakes that I was part of creating was providing player creation rules for otaku. They were a much better plot device than a character type.

[hobgoblin]

I actually liked that 3rd Edition intermix between AIs and Otaku. SR4 can't give me that since nothing indicates that AIs have something to do with resonance. They are like mundane free spirits.

some like the big bad unkillable squidhead-wannabe monster of the week, others prefer things to be killable, or just stop taking on futile jobs.

elf, dragon and ia conspiracies have been scaled back to allow a more "street" kind of game. still, there is some interesting AI&TM activity in geneva of all places (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[crash2029]

It just occured to me that Deus started out as the Arcology SCIRE, whose job was to lend an invisible hand to the matrix users. It would make perfect sense for the AI to continue its base function in this way. Deus has always been a provider of individualized assisted matrix access, even as creator of the Network.

I thought that Deus began as the AEP (Arcology Expert Program).

[Demonseed Elite]

I thought that Deus began as the AEP (Arcology Expert Program).

Correct, the SCIRE is the host where Deus lived.

[Link]

I think one of the biggest SR3 mistakes that I was part of creating was providing player creation rules for otaku. They were a much better plot device than a character type.

How many mistakes were you a part of? ;)
The first otaku creation rules came in SR2 (VR2).

[Demonseed Elite]

How many mistakes were you a part of? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
The first otaku creation rules came in SR2 (VR2).

True, I was only involved when it hit 3rd edition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[GreyBrother]

I thought them awesome except the whole "must be in a tribe" thing ^^