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> Math SPU, Bonuses...
TKDNinjaInBlack
post Apr 16 2009, 01:43 PM
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So I read the description of the Math SPU in Augmentation and it said that it grants bonuses to Electronic Warfare tests using encoding and decoding. Should that read encrypting and decrypting?

The reason I am asking is because I have a player who took that ware because it fits his character concept and works well for the math (knowledge skill: advanced theoretical math), but he got really excited when he saw the words encoding and decoding (read: programming, i.e. software tests). Given the context of the device, it would make some sense to use a math SPU for programming using the software skill, but I really think it's just a typo and they meant encrypting and decrypting. The way the sentence is constructed, it looks like it wasn't intended to separate encoding or decoding from E. warfare as the E. Warfare must involve them.

here's the excerpt:

QUOTE (Augmentation)
Math SPU: This cranial subprocessor unit (SPU) amplifies
the user’s mathematical abilities by enhancing his ability to run
mathematical calculations as background processes. As a side
benefit, the subprocessor may also function as a stopwatch, alarm
clock, and extremely accurate chronometer. A math SPU adds a
+2 dice pool modifier to all tests focused on the user’s mathematical
abilities; as well as to any Electronic Warfare tests involving
encoding or decoding.


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Angier
post Apr 16 2009, 01:54 PM
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It's encryption and decryption, yeah.
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Prime Mover
post Apr 16 2009, 01:58 PM
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SR4 Lists Electronic Warfare actions as Detecting Wireless Nodes, Encryption & Decryption, Intercepting Wireless Signals and Jamming.

Guess ya could go either way and say allow it for all of these tests or just encrypt/decrypt as there is no encode/decode in the rules.
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CanRay
post Apr 16 2009, 02:02 PM
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Hey, if you have a legal SIN (Or a really good Fake SIN), it'll allow you to do your taxes correctly. That's a big enough bonus to pay for itself right there!
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Angier
post Apr 16 2009, 02:23 PM
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Taxes are calculated automatically 2070+.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 16 2009, 03:12 PM
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i suggest some applied kinetic energy to said players head by way of the SR4 BBB...
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Heath Robinson
post Apr 16 2009, 03:54 PM
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Encoding and decoding also includes the hypothetical use of Electronic Warfare to crack enumerated encoding schemas, like Morse Code. Not that anyone uses such things unless their GM is entertaining.

Anyone who uses the term "encode" to refer to programming needs to be educated in current terminology.
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Angier
post Apr 16 2009, 04:08 PM
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using the morse code is a sort of encryption thus is also covered by encrypt/decrypt actions.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 16 2009, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE (Angier @ Apr 16 2009, 06:08 PM) *
using the morse code is a sort of encryption thus is also covered by encrypt/decrypt actions.

heh, morse code is no more then time delimited (or something like that) binary.

basically x amount of time without power is 0, while the equivalent time with is 1...

so if morse code is encryption then so is multimedia data hiding as text via ascii or unicode encoding.
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Draco18s
post Apr 16 2009, 05:51 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 16 2009, 01:00 PM) *
heh, morse code is no more then time delimited (or something like that) binary.

basically x amount of time without power is 0, while the equivalent time with is 1...

so if morse code is encryption then so is multimedia data hiding as text via ascii or unicode encoding.


Not quite, but close.

Morse Code:
.--..--.-....-

All of those marks are "time with power." How long the power lasts differentiates dots and dashes. Typically a dash is twice or more longer than a dot (it varies from operator to operator, which interestingly enough is how the allies were able to track German troop movements: they could identify individual radio operators based on how they operated the morse code clicker).

Your system looks more like this:

-- -- - -
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Angier
post Apr 16 2009, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 16 2009, 07:00 PM) *
[...]
so if morse code is encryption then so is multimedia data hiding as text via ascii or unicode encoding.


Actually that is also bordering to encryption. A sort of encryption designed to take advantage of the think processes in our brain. The picture is hidden between the line of symbols. As our brain is trained to spot patterns the key to decrypt this picture is part of the interpretation of what we actually see.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 16 2009, 07:11 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 16 2009, 07:51 PM) *
Not quite, but close.

Morse Code:
.--..--.-....-

All of those marks are "time with power." How long the power lasts differentiates dots and dashes. Typically a dash is twice or more longer than a dot (it varies from operator to operator, which interestingly enough is how the allies were able to track German troop movements: they could identify individual radio operators based on how they operated the morse code clicker).

Your system looks more like this:

-- -- - -

ah yes, silly me. thats what one gets for trying to write posts by memory alone...
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hobgoblin
post Apr 16 2009, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE (Angier @ Apr 16 2009, 07:59 PM) *
Actually that is also bordering to encryption. A sort of encryption designed to take advantage of the think processes in our brain. The picture is hidden between the line of symbols. As our brain is trained to spot patterns the key to decrypt this picture is part of the interpretation of what we actually see.

well, if one really wants to do it proper, one employs steganography.

also, there is a interesting bit in the unwired shadowtalk, where one document have been hidden inside another.

hell, there is also the classical way a computer virus would spread, by embedding itself inside a existing executable, getting launched by hijacking the initiation code for its own use, before handing things over to the original program, leaving the user of the computer non the wiser that a extra program just fired up...
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AllTheNothing
post Apr 16 2009, 08:37 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 16 2009, 07:00 PM) *
heh, morse code is no more then time delimited (or something like that) binary.

basically x amount of time without power is 0, while the equivalent time with is 1...

so if morse code is encryption then so is multimedia data hiding as text via ascii or unicode encoding.

Binary code has evolved from the concept of the morse code and was first used for some kind of automatic telegraph (at least i think it was born that way) and later used by computers.
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Heath Robinson
post Apr 16 2009, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE (Angier @ Apr 16 2009, 05:08 PM) *
using the morse code is a sort of encryption thus is also covered by encrypt/decrypt actions.

No, it really isn't. Encryption is the process of using a variable secret to obfuscate the data. Morse Code has no variable secrets. It's simply a mechanism to translate textual and numeric information into a series of pulses of variable length.

Encryption takes information in the format that will be used for the media and outputs a different set of data that is mathematically related to the original set via some separate piece of information. Meanwhile, encoding takes information in a format and turns it into a set of information that is appropriate for a different medium.

Morse code takes alphanumeric data and turns it into timed pulses appropriate for electrical transmission. ASCII translaes the same original set of data into a purely numeric format. Binary and denary (and other place value systems) take the mathematical ideal of a number and transforms it into a series of digits. In the case of binary, one can use an encoding scheme that assigns various independant conductive elements to certain digits to turn the binary digits into a parallel set of electrical currents.

All of these are encoding schemes, and the Math SPU helps you in any circumstance where you might need to make a roll for them. In SR4, though, very few people are going to ask for such a roll. I'm a pedant that had to point out that the Math SPU text shouldn't be changed because a processor in your head that's devoted to doing your Mathematics for you can seriously help when you're using the more Mathematics heavy encoding schemes.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 17 2009, 10:05 AM
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QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Apr 16 2009, 10:37 PM) *
Binary code has evolved from the concept of the morse code and was first used for some kind of automatic telegraph (at least i think it was born that way) and later used by computers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_code
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletype

seems the teletype used a different set of coding, as the morse code was somewhat variable...

funny enough, teletype related elements can be found in unix os's to this day (tty is still used for defining consoles in linux for example).
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Angier
post Apr 17 2009, 10:24 AM
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QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 16 2009, 11:48 PM) *
No, it really isn't. Encryption is the process of using a variable secret to obfuscate the data. Morse Code has no variable secrets. It's simply a mechanism to translate textual and numeric information into a series of pulses of variable length.


Sorry, no. Encryption is simply a methode to encode information while the key to access or interpret the information is not publicly available thus restricting the information only to those who are meant to get it. If you are not able to understand the morse code alphabet (hence the name morse CODE) the information submitted by it's means is properly encrypted.

Long story short: Encryption is the act of encoding information while restricting it to only those who are meant to get it.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 17 2009, 11:29 AM
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problem is that morse code would be at best a poor encryption, as the key is publicly available, and just about anyone knows of its existence thru popular culture.

so when someone encounters something that goes .---.-.-- or whatever, they will reach for the encyclopedia and check against the morse code alphabet.

all in all, morse code is no better then rot13 for anything other then transmissions that will have no more value ones the intended recipient have gotten hold of it.

and stacking rot13 on top of morse code may buy you a bit more time. at least as long as its a human that is doing the decoding, and not a machine looking for common patterns (the most common letter in the transmission will most likely be the replacement for the letter E for instance, and with that knowledge, the rest of the message should be easy).
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Heath Robinson
post Apr 17 2009, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE (Angier @ Apr 17 2009, 11:24 AM) *
Sorry, no. Encryption is simply a methode to encode information while the key to access or interpret the information is not publicly available thus restricting the information only to those who are meant to get it. If you are not able to understand the morse code alphabet (hence the name morse CODE) the information submitted by it's means is properly encrypted.

Long story short: Encryption is the act of encoding information while restricting it to only those who are meant to get it.

And stabbing someone is like hugging them because they're both an action taken by a person that operates on another person. You're abstracting too much in defense of your point.

The fact that Morse Code is incomprehensible without knowing the translation operation back into textual data is irrelevant to your argument because you can do symbol frequency analysis and use heuristics to determine whether the result matches your language to work out the transformation. The encoding scheme carries such data in plain sight because of the real datas unscrambled heuristics. Encryption schemes are designed so that you can't do that.
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Angier
post Apr 17 2009, 11:58 AM
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The usage of unfamiliar foreign languages is also considered encryption (the navajo code speakers!).
If you are not familiar with the morse code alphabet, you won't be able to decrypt it. As the morse code alphabet does NOT carry the encoding scheme in plain sight it is - by your logic - a proper encryption. Only the fact that the morse code alphabet was not developed as an encryption but rather an encoding scheme to simplify the transfer of information and thus the key to decrypt it was made publicly available made it obsolete as an encryption method.

Btw: Your argument about heuristics is irrelevant because it is a standard method to decrypt messages who use any form of artifical language encoding (like the morse code which substitutes letters with a series of strings and dots) to encrypt it.

There exist a multitude of encryption methods which use different methods to encrypt the information and nowadays not only the encryption method itself but mostly the act of transfering the key to decrypt it is what keeps cryptologes in business as there exist more than enough encryption methods which seemingly are not decryptable without at least a part of the proper key.
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CanRay
post Apr 17 2009, 12:06 PM
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I remember reading one book, the Decker had to go through some old encryption, but for some reason it wasn't working.

Then he slapped his head, and changed the language to "Spanish", and boom, worked.

A highly educated person could make things difficult by writing something in an obscure and dead language (Ancient Babylonian anyone?) and then putting it through encryption. Encryption programs figure that the languages used are going to be standard for the OS on the system. So, English, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese for the West Coast (Like Seattle. Probably a few of the Amer-Indian languages as well.).

And try finding a translation program from Ancient Babylon. Ain't gonna happen.

'Course, with all the research going into those old civilizations due to the introduction of magic, they might not be as obscure as I'm thinking...
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Heath Robinson
post Apr 17 2009, 12:14 PM
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QUOTE (Angier @ Apr 17 2009, 12:58 PM) *
<snip/>

The Navajo code talkers were a code. Not an encryption. The meaning is carried in plain sight if you know the algorithm (language). With encryption you can't know the meaning even if you know the algorithm as long as the key remains secret. The usage of the variable secret to obfuscate the data is the key characteristic of Encryption.

Morse Code does carry the scheme in plain sight. You can calculate symbol statistics and find the correlation with known languages to work out the translation back into text. There's no attempt to obfuscate the frequency of the letter "i" in the source material. We can use that kind information on the frequency in basic English and the observation of symbols (which could be ngrams of varying sizes) and a couple of algorithms to piece together the encoding scheme purely from observed data.

And the Math SPU would give you bonus dice to do that.



Edit: If you would rather, we can discuss the intent behind encoding and encrypting. Encoding is primarily intended to be known by many people and is designed to efficiently translate the information between different media. Encoding schemes are intended to make the information accessible to others. Encryption is intended to hide the meaning of the information entirely.

This dramatically transforms the kinds of steps you have to go through to derive the inverse operation.
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Angier
post Apr 17 2009, 12:15 PM
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That are pretty much the basics behind the navajo code. Using a foreign language to encode. And that is pretty much my thought behind my asumption that the morse code would work as an encryption methode if the person trying to decrypt it would not be familiar with it.

Btw: Modern encryption methods do also carry the scheme in plain sight. The public key.

It breaks down to: If you don't know the encoding scheme it is an encryption, even if the means to decrypt it are just as silly as counting symbols.

If someone would be using an obscure language to obfuscate the information I'd request the that you need to be familiar with this language in order to get the Bonus of the Math SPU (helping to count those silly symbols ^^)

So the real question is: how familiar is the 6th World 2072+ with the morse code alphabet?
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Draco18s
post Apr 17 2009, 01:16 PM
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Navajo:

It was an encryption. You didn't just translate word for word from one language to the other, first you took the message broke it down into letters, then picked a Navajo word at random* that started with the same (equivalent) letter in Navajo and transmitted that word.

Voila.


*This part I'm not sure about, but given the way I understand the rest of it it'd be so much easier and secure to use more than "alpha tango foxtrot" all the time. Also, need not be purely random, one wind talker might always use certain words another might use other words.
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Angier
post Apr 17 2009, 01:42 PM
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The navajo-code really was just the translation from english into a foreign language (the navajo) which was unknown to the third party.

The embedding of codified descriptions into the navajo language was just used because the navajo had no words for "tank" or "machine gun nest". The language itself was the encryption.

Once again: All I want to say is: Encryption in it's basic form is nothing else than the encoding of information in a way that only someone familiar with the encoding scheme is able to understand the message. To decrypt a message using a unknown encoding scheme (like a unknown foreign language) one needs to have access to this language (as one needs to have access to the key).
Thus If one is not familiar with the morse code alphabet it is pretty much an encryption.
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