Incompetent Quality and Activesofts, compatible? Options

[pbangarth]

I don't find anything in the rules that disallows someone who is Incompetent in a Skill from buying an Activesoft in that Skill for the same cost as anyone else. Is this doable? Are there any costs/ modifiers for using the Skill?

[Stahlseele]

Doable.
No/No
That's what Skillwires/Active-Softs are meant to do.

[Warlordtheft]

By raw yes, but IMHO-that qualifies as abusing the system. As a GM, I'd say no. To get the bonus BP for a disadvantage there has to be some penalty. This loophole really means that there is no penalty. My rown ruling is, well yeah you can buy the skillsoft but unfortunately your body doesn't process that skill as normal, so you can't use it.Now if they pay off the flaw, then I'd let them use it.

[Ancient History]

By raw yes, but IMHO-that qualifies as abusing the system. As a GM, I'd say no. To get the bonus BP for a disadvantage there has to be some penalty. This loophole really means that there is no penalty. My rown ruling is, well yeah you can buy the skillsoft but unfortunately your body doesn't process that skill as normal, so you can't use it.Now if they pay off the flaw, then I'd let them use it.

The disadvantage is that you have to buy a skillsoft...which are now more expensive!

[Draco18s]

The disadvantage is that you have to buy a skillsoft...which are now more expensive!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 10,000 * Rating...or about 2BP per rating vs. 4 BP of actually getting the skill.

So he gains (slightly under*) 2BP per rating of the skill plus the BP for Incompetent (10?)

I don't see a downside.

*Cost of the system in the first place.

[Moon-Hawk]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 10,000 * Rating...or about 2BP per rating vs. 4 BP of actually getting the skill.

So he gains (slightly under*) 2BP per rating of the skill plus the BP for Incompetent (10?)

I don't see a downside.

*Cost of the system in the first place.

For starters, the skill he is getting at a reduced price isn't as good as a real skill, due to restrictions on karma usage.
Second, you have to include the loss of essence as a cost.

It's not a bad deal, but it could go either way depending on the character.

[paws2sky]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 10,000 * Rating...or about 2BP per rating vs. 4 BP of actually getting the skill.

So he gains (slightly under*) 2BP per rating of the skill plus the BP for Incompetent (10?)

I don't see a downside.

*Cost of the system in the first place.

See: issues with using Edge and skillsofts.
A skillsoft is better than nothing, but its not exactly ideal.
Incompetent is only -5 BP.

-paws

[TBRMInsanity]

Activesofts are prerecorded skills from someone that already is proficient in that skill. So I would say while your chipped it bypasses your incompetence in the skill. That being said you can never improve the skill (unless you buy a better version) and the Activesoft won't help you learn the skill normally. As cyberware it is also possible to be hacked and turned off (Which will really ruin your day).

[Caadium]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 10,000 * Rating...or about 2BP per rating vs. 4 BP of actually getting the skill.

So he gains (slightly under*) 2BP per rating of the skill plus the BP for Incompetent (10?)

I don't see a downside.

*Cost of the system in the first place.

The nuyen and essence costs of the skillwire system is something you are overlooking.

Not to mention that you've got a skill that you can't raise, instead you have to spend more money to buy a NEW program (you cant pay the difference between lvl 3 and lvl 4 activesoft).

And the inability to use Edge with activesofts is a big deal. This means that you have no ability to go for the 'long shot'. If this is a skill you rely on you better not get into a situation where a failure is something that isn't an option for your survival.

Furthermore, where do you keep the soft at? In your commlink? You can bet your ass that your activesofts are going to be one of the first things a hacker/technomancer will go after. "Hey, this guy is relying on activesofts to shoot at us. I'll just erase that, he can't shoot anymore, and if he lives it'll set him back quite a bit."

Finally, no matter what the situation, you no longer have to worry about 'swapping out' your real skills. You only have 1 round to do something, but the soft you need isn't loaded? Sucks to be you.


I know that these situations won't always come up, but there are enough potential risks that its not unreasonable for at least 1 of them to come up at some point. There was recently a long thread about whether skillwires were overpowered or not, and I still stand by the idea that they are usefull, but the inherent drawbacks keep them in check. I know that there are others that disagree with this thinking, and at its core I'd guess that those opinions of skillwires in general would affect how you respond to the OP.

[Draco18s]

And the inability to use Edge with activesofts is a big deal. This means that you have no ability to go for the 'long shot'. If this is a skill you rely on you better not get into a situation where a failure is something that isn't an option for your survival.

You can use edge. To reroll failures, which IMO is the better use of Edge in nearly all cases.

As for a skill you can never raise, just buy it up to 4 at chargen and be done with it.

Essence for 95% of all characters is going to be a minor cost that they shed one "Emo Boy" tear over and move on. Mages and adepts will care, that's it.

Risk of not having the skill loaded: the OP talks about replacing one skill with skill wires. Therefore, the one skill is always loaded.

Hacker: why is the hacker wasting his time doing this? First off, assuming that the character is dumb enough to leave himself open to hacking in the first place (i.e. not operating in hidden mode), then it takes the hacker a minimum of 3 combat rounds to get access to the comlink at a high enough "clearance" (aka Admin) to delete the activesoft. Hacking cyberware is one of the least effective things a hacker can do in combat.

[BlueMax]

The disadvantage is that you have to buy a skillsoft...which are now more expensive!

Compiling Tutor Sprites for my biowire is still free!
Suckahs!

[Malachi]

You can use edge. To reroll failures, which IMO is the better use of Edge in nearly all cases.

First, just to be specific, that requires that a Skillwire Expert System be installed. Granted, not much of a cost at 3,000 and 0.1 Essence but still a cost nonetheless. Secondly, the rules state that Edge may be used to reroll a failed test. To my GM ears, that means you may only use Edge on a Skillsoft if you did not achieve enough hits to succeed. If you get 1 net hit on that ranged attack test, but you really wanted at least 4 hits in order to drop that nasty enemy sammie: too bad. If you're using it to Hack and you get only 2 hits but you really needed 4 this round in order to get into the system to shut off an alarm: too bad. That's still a pretty limited use of Edge.

[DireRadiant]

Don't forget the opportunity cost of offsetting the 5 BP negative quality with skillwires. Even if you get 5 BP, and offset if by spending nuyen BP to offset it, you only net a couple BP at most, and you use up part of your 35 negative BP, and part of your Resources BP pool, and your essence. As an alternative you could have chosen a different 5 BP negative quality and used the entire 5 BP to gain somewhere else without consuming Resource BP pool and essence.

[Writer]

I think Dire Radiant said it best. If you are just going to off set the negative quality with skillwires, you are only netting a couple BP while reducing your limits in other pools. I don't see a problem with getting skillwires to compensate for incompetence. That is probably why the technology was initially designed.

On the other hand, you aren't going to choose to be incompetent with a skill you might actually need as part of your character concept. A hacker isn't going to be incompetent with Hacking. A street samurai won't choose Pistols. And, it is only 5 BP, after all. It is a couple months of Middle Lifestyle and a new car. It is a single skill level and a Language Specialization. Give that ork brawler Incompetent (Artisan) and let him have 5 BP. On the other hand, if I were that player, my ork would be singing at every kareoke bar. Maybe that's why he became a brawler. He loves to sing publicly, but can't.

If you are concerned there is potential for min/maxing, this is such a small max to squeeze out of the system.

[pbangarth]

Interesting discussion here. I am particularly interested in Malachi's take on what a 'failed test' is. I will have to think about that one.

I am working on a character who has the Uncouth Quality, and so is 'unaware' in all Social Skills. In my original post I assumed that 'unaware' is equivalent to 'Incompetent'. I think this is fair.

I am thinking of how this character might, over time, acquire Skills through Activesofts to compensate for his ineptitude, especially after experiencing the consequences of his failings while running in the Shadows. It seems like a reasonable thing to do to buy your way out of such trouble.

I do sympathize with the opinion that this is circumventing the cost for Uncouth and therefore not earning the 10 BP it gains. On the other hand, there is monetary and Essence cost for acquiring Skills in this way, plus difficulties of availability. I'm of two minds here, and appreciate others' opinions.

EDIT: 20 BP for Uncouth, not 10 BP

[Draco18s]

Personally if one aquires the 'ware and the 'softs after char gen as a legitimate way of "getting around" the weekness I'd say go for it. You're forced into having the cash to get it in game rather than as the package of chargen ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 40000 is a bit harder to come by after char gen) as well as the time spent finding it and then getting it implanted.

That's story worthy.

[Caadium]

Personally if one aquires the 'ware and the 'softs after char gen as a legitimate way of "getting around" the weekness I'd say go for it. You're forced into having the cash to get it in game rather than as the package of chargen ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 40000 is a bit harder to come by after char gen) as well as the time spent finding it and then getting it implanted.

That's story worthy.

Agreed. How you deal with your flaws in game isn't tweaking the system in my mind. It's growing and developing a character since you are using in-game time and resources to overcome challenges you have had to deal with.

Uncouth is very different beast than incompetent. For one thing, 20 bp bonus versus 5 bp bonus. Secondly, the first line of Uncouth is something you might want to look at:

Uncouth characters are antisocial or sociopathic and have a difficult time interacting with others.

This is a personality and character flaw. It goes far beyond not knowing etiquette or not knowing how to negotiate. This is a flaw that says they don't care about those things, or don't even understand when to try to use those skills. That is what antisocial or sociopathic are. My impression is that the way you describe the character is it is rough around the edges because it doesn't know better, not because it is really incapable of understanding how to behave different. If I'm correct, you might want to consider taking incompetent for some key social skills (like etiquette or negotiation) to represent that instead of Uncouth.

[pbangarth]

This is a personality and character flaw. It goes far beyond not knowing etiquette or not knowing how to negotiate. This is a flaw that says they don't care about those things, or don't even understand when to try to use those skills. That is what antisocial or sociopathic are. My impression is that the way you describe the character is it is rough around the edges because it doesn't know better, not because it is really incapable of understanding how to behave different. If I'm correct, you might want to consider taking incompetent for some key social skills (like etiquette or negotiation) to represent that instead of Uncouth.

I see the nuance. Thanks.

[ornot]

incompetent is one of the most easily abused flaws available, since there's no restriction or guidance on which skills it can be applied to. When will incompetence diving or incompetence nautical engineering ever hinder a character in a landlocked sprawl? Hell, incompetence parachuting can pretty safely be taken by most characters with impunity.
As a gm i scrutinise use of that flaw very carefully, and require thorough explanation as to why a character is not as capable as any other untrained joe. A popular explanation is a mental block associated with past trauma, eg. Incompetence demolitions following nearly getting blown up. In that situation i think a case could be made for disallowing the use of activesofts. But in general, using tech to offset incompetencies is not unreasonable, and far less of a problem than the incompetent flaw itself.

[Stahlseele]

I would so argue against that reasoning . . if i was close enough to allmost get blown up and knowing what it is, then i probably had the skill to begin with.
And now i am suddenly incompetent, and not just said to be incompetent because i made a mistake once? O.o

[LamplightSlasher]

Important Note to ALL GMs:

Skillsofts DO NOT allow for learned experience. The way I translate this will prevent any min\max attempts by all but the dullest of players. ANY success gained via skillsofts does not EARN experience.... thus no KARMA. I would certainly allow a character to purchase huge amounts of skillsofts to replace real onee, but they would earn karma SO slowly. There would have to be some serious 'role' playing required by that player to keep up.

[Stahlseele]

Soo . . a Street-Samurai that has heavy Weapons or something like that chipped does not get Karma, even if he did not only use that skill?

[LamplightSlasher]

^^
He wouldn't earn karma based on successes that relied on the skillsoft.

If the street sam success in fragging the enemy were effected by more than 50% reliance on Heavy Weapons, than NO.
A larger combat, where 10 tough opponents were dropped by the sammy, two by heavy weapon fire, and the rest through a variety of techniques, should earn no Karma consideration for ONLY the two dropped by Heavy weapon fire. That leaves 80% of the available karma to be earned.
Most characters won't see much effect from this lack of experience, and most GMs likely wont have to work hard keeping track of how much karma the PCs SHOULDN'T earn, but for the character who doesn't spend points on real skills this would be more apparent.

[Stahlseele]

There's just one teeny weeny itsi bitsy little problem.
Earning Karma does not work like that in SR3.
As far as i remember, some guidelines in the Books were:
You get 1 Point for being there.
You get 1 Point for supplying a sorely needed skill.
You get 1 Point for having participated in combat. (Astral,Social, Physical,Vehical)[yes, i know that Vehical is spelled wrong, but it fit]
You get 1 Point for helping to achieve the groups goal.
You get 1 to 3 Points for roleplaying.
Granted, those are SR3 Numbers, but eh . .

[LamplightSlasher]

RAW, I take karma awards to be more of a guideline. You guys don't actually award karma exactly as it's written do you?
I've always (in countless games dating back to 1st edition DnD and Traveller) awarded character advancement points as a...reward. No one gets experience for just being there. Certainly the "supplying a sorely needed skill" award applies to this conversation (and shouldn't be earned when a skillsoft), but simply surviving the run will get old hat soon enough that a veteran runner should not be earning karma for it.