Incompetent Quality and Activesofts, compatible? Options

[Stahlseele]

WHY should that not be rewarded?
NOBODY had the Decency to learn that one needed skill.
The Samurai actually gave up Essence and Money to get the skill.
So he HAD the skill, he SUPPLIED the skill, but he does NOT get the Karma? O.o
And someone who had NOT given up Essence and Money but Skill-Points to achieve the same result WOULD?
I call Bullshit on that one . .

[LamplightSlasher]

^^
The street sam with the expensive skillsoft is not experiencing the skill-use the same as the player who uses his real skill. I can appreciate the expense and essence loss, but some condsideration must be given to abusing money to better ones character. When that cybered sammy who has bested countless goons and survived the most epic of runs can easily earn quick cash by taking twinky jobs, why should he earn the cash that he then uses to improve his skillsofts, plus the karma for 'being there' on a job that doesn't offer a legitimate, taxing challenge? Doesn't that strike you as metagaming? Skillsofts represent the fact that no one character can have all skills, while any one character can be challenged to need any skill. It comes down to: has the character succeeded in this (or a similar) task countless times? Can they achieve said task without any question of success? If so... then the character doesn't have the oppurtunity to learn from it, thus no karmic reward.

[Stahlseele]

There's actually a Twinkery that allows a character to have access to basically all skills in the book after 2 Days of in game time.
And your way of dealing with skillwires seriously makes things like the swiss-army-knife/jack of all trades character concept pretty much impossible to build upon, because they rely on the skill-wires . .
What is the big difference in spending 10 build-points(or whatever) for money to get cyber and skillsoft level or and 10 buildpoints(or whatever) to get skill up to level 4?
also, why he should be still running around instead of using his mighty skillwires and sleep regulator to juggle 3 different day-jobs at once?
because he is frigging playing shadowrun . . that's the same reason why no mage character does join a corp and gets paid to place wards and the such . .

This is what skillwires were meant to do!
This is why they are in the game at all!
And active-soft just got much more expansive too!
That's like saying all people run around with heavy armor, because the samurai has a lot of guns that could otherwise kill them just like that . .
Which, of course, is what these Weapons were meant to do . .

[LamplightSlasher]

^^
It's not just about character creation. The characters need to develope after the game starts, and by definition, they are going to earn cash and karma every run. Skillsofts should be used for taks that aren't going to earn experience, or for the times when simply surviving is more important than earning karma. What does a character who never buys real skills use his karma on. Earning karma via skillsofts is abusing a loophole in the rules. Although when I think about it, there is a rule that dictates I cannot improve a skill during session, but I can purchase and install skillsofts. The priority should be apparent in that.

[Stahlseele]

Samurai allways had less need for karma than money, but there's the money for karma/karma for money rule for exactly that reason.
It just would not be fair to not give the samurai the same ammount of karma the magics got, while they get the same ammount of money he gets.
There is no developing skill-Soft skills, that much is right. Does not stop the Samurai from improving OTHER skills that can not be slotted?
Or stop him from developing the slotted skill but using the skillsoft untill his real skill is high enough for his taste?
If you do this to skillwires, what about biowires for Technomancers?
Or Spirits of mages?
How is doing what the system is meant to do abusing a loophole?
If it was used to do something it was NOT meant to do, THEN it would be abuse of a loophole. .

[LamplightSlasher]

Hey... it says right in the description of skillsofts that they do not infer experience on the user.
The playesr in my games, rarely earn the same experience/karma/skill points, and i design my games to offer oppurtunities for all the players to shine indenpendently and as a team.
We may have to agree to disagree, but I know how I'll be ruling in my own sessions.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

^^
The street sam with the expensive skillsoft is not experiencing the skill-use the same as the player who uses his real skill. I can appreciate the expense and essence loss, but some condsideration must be given to abusing money to better ones character. When that cybered sammy who has bested countless goons and survived the most epic of runs can easily earn quick cash by taking twinky jobs, why should he earn the cash that he then uses to improve his skillsofts, plus the karma for 'being there' on a job that doesn't offer a legitimate, taxing challenge? Doesn't that strike you as metagaming? Skillsofts represent the fact that no one character can have all skills, while any one character can be challenged to need any skill. It comes down to: has the character succeeded in this (or a similar) task countless times? Can they achieve said task without any question of success? If so... then the character doesn't have the oppurtunity to learn from it, thus no karmic reward.

Wait... So with that reasoning, any character that uses money to improve rather than the Karma would not benefit? So the Easy upgrades for the Street Sam would discountinue his ability to earn Karma, because he no longer is challenged because of his 20+ Dice Pool? How exactly would that be metagaming?

I agree... I call B/S

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Samurai allways had less need for karma than money, but there's the money for karma/karma for money rule for exactly that reason.
It just would not be fair to not give the samurai the same ammount of karma the magics got, while they get the same ammount of money he gets.
There is no developing skill-Soft skills, that much is right. Does not stop the Samurai from improving OTHER skills that can not be slotted?
Or stop him from developing the slotted skill but using the skillsoft untill his real skill is high enough for his taste?
If you do this to skillwires, what about biowires for Technomancers?
Or Spirits of mages?
How is doing what the system is meant to do abusing a loophole?
If it was used to do something it was NOT meant to do, THEN it would be abuse of a loophole. .

Hear, Hear... Well Put...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hey... it says right in the description of skillsofts that they do not infer experience on the user.
The playesr in my games, rarely earn the same experience/karma/skill points, and i design my games to offer oppurtunities for all the players to shine indenpendently and as a team.
We may have to agree to disagree, but I know how I'll be ruling in my own sessions.

And with that... to each his own...

[Draco18s]

^^
He wouldn't earn karma based on successes that relied on the skillsoft.

And how, exactly, do you determine how much karma to not-award a player who uses skillsofts?

[BlueMax]

OK folks, lets all give this topic a rest before Bull has to come in and go all Orange on us. Everyone has presented their side and is unlikely to convert those who disagree.

BlueMax
/Thank Rod its not the color of body fluid.

[LamplightSlasher]

And how, exactly, do you determine how much karma to not-award a player who uses skillsofts?

I'd keep track of any uses of the skillsofts, as well as any karma that they earn throughout the game. Anytime the PC uses a skillsoft in a task that otherwise would earn them karma... they simply don't earn it.

Honestly... After reading the description of skillsofts in the SR4A,, I'm surprised this is such an unpopular ruling.

[Draco18s]

But tasks don't earn you Karma. If you get like, 5 per run and they use the skill 3 times (over a total of 10 skills and 40 dice rolls) that's not worth 80% of their karma (or even 20%) for that session.

[LamplightSlasher]

But tasks don't earn you Karma. If you get like, 5 per run and they use the skill 3 times (over a total of 10 skills and 40 dice rolls) that's not worth 80% of their karma (or even 20%) for that session.

I'm not saying it detracts from ALL karma earned... simply the karma that might have been earned by using the real skill. If using the skill would earn them a single karma, using a skill soft earns 0. If it would earn 2, and the skillsoft (or real skill) is only part of completing said task, then they could earn 1 of the 2 available.

[pbangarth]

LamplightSlasher, I understand your reasoning behind your decision. To get a broader view of your position, could you tell me how you approach a player's proposition that his character, after earning karma from using Skills X, Y and Z, wishes to acquire Skill W?

The reason I ask is that, if a character cannot earn karma from a Skill that is not his, I wonder how he can apply karma from a Skill he has to a Skill he doesn't yet have? Isn't karma a nebulous, generic growth of metahuman potential, not linked to any particular Skill?

[LamplightSlasher]

LamplightSlasher, I understand your reasoning behind your decision. To get a broader view of your position, could you tell me how you approach a player's proposition that his character, after earning karma from using Skills X, Y and Z, wishes to acquire Skill W?

The reason I ask is that, if a character cannot earn karma from a Skill that is not his, I wonder how he can apply karma from a Skill he has to a Skill he doesn't yet have? Isn't karma a nebulous, generic growth of metahuman potential, not linked to any particular Skill?

The karma is a generic point pool. I see the argument that if I award skill points for using a skill than it should only be available to improve that skill, but I still want my players to be able to buy new skills with minimal hassle. When it's time for new skills all I ask is the players have a contact who could teach or connect them to a teacher. When it comes time to rewards I've experimented with things like rewarding skills and other play-based rewards in lieu of experience/karma/SPs. A character who passes a series of difficult demolition tests, successfully disarming the mines his buddies have stepped on without forcing them to buy new cyberlimbs, can expect a cheap specialization in bomb disposal available to him the next time it's skill-up session.

[DireRadiant]

Important Note to ALL GMs:

Skillsofts DO NOT allow for learned experience. The way I translate this will prevent any min\max attempts by all but the dullest of players. ANY success gained via skillsofts does not EARN experience.... thus no KARMA. I would certainly allow a character to purchase huge amounts of skillsofts to replace real onee, but they would earn karma SO slowly. There would have to be some serious 'role' playing required by that player to keep up.

Are you saying this is how everyone should play under the rules, or is this simply your ruling for your game?

[Stahlseele]

Are you saying this is how everyone should play under the rules, or is this simply your ruling for your game?

let me answer that with another quote:

Hey... it says right in the description of skillsofts that they do not infer experience on the user.
The playesr in my games, rarely earn the same experience/karma/skill points, and i design my games to offer oppurtunities for all the players to shine indenpendently and as a team.
We may have to agree to disagree, but I know how I'll be ruling in my own sessions.

[Writer]

I don't see skillwires as such a game breaker.

Okay, so an office worker wants to become a shadowrunner. He improves his skillwires to the max rating of 5 (pgs 334 & 335). He gets a handful of skillsofts at the max rating of 4 (pg 320). He slots Infiltration and Dodge, sneaks through the office and slips away to parts unknown. In the streets, he gets beaten up in a brawl because he runs across someone who has Unarmed Combat 6 and a specialization in Martial Arts, which totals the dice at 8. This is double his 4. He slots Running instead of Unarmed Combat, keeping Dodge in place for defense, and runs away. He returns with Dodge and Pistols, but the martial artist, who isn't so good with guns, only a 3 also specialized in pistols (now 5 dice) and now has an edge. Our little hero's luck runs out when the martial artist gets tired of the little bugger and adds Edge to a couple rolls.

Skillwires can allow someone to be a jack of all trades, and this will be fine early on in a shadowrunner's career, but there will be plenty of character's that shine from the start within their specialties to become superstars. Sure the skillwire master can improve his skills to master level with karma, leaving behind the need for his skillsofts in certain areas. He may become a valuable part of a shadowrunning team that needs to fill certain roles.

If someone wants to play that character, go ahead. The GM should be able to create plenty of opportunities for fun with this character on the team. The character can do anything reasonably well, but can't do everything exceptionally well. That's the point of a team. Also, I believe this kind of character can be played with just as much depth as any other character.

As for the karma thing, characters earn karma for their decisions, not for their skills use. I don't see a connection between skillwires and earned karma.

[DireRadiant]

let me answer that with another quote:

Thanks Stahlseele. I was worried there, all that was reminding me of the old CoC character sheets, and a few other systems, where'd you be sitting around during game sessions figuring out how to go do something stupid in order to make a skill roll just so you get another tick on your sheet so you could roll a skillup at the end of the session. Of course in CoC it just made it easier for Something Nasty to happen, but for most games tracking how many times I used or rolled a skill during a session in order to gain karma seems kind of tedious.

[Stahlseele]

As for the karma thing, characters earn karma for their decisions, not for their skills use. I don't see a connection between skillwires and earned karma.

OK, now THIS i can get behind ^^

Thanks Stahlseele. I was worried there, all that was reminding me of the old CoC character sheets, and a few other systems, where'd you be sitting around during game sessions figuring out how to go do something stupid in order to make a skill roll just so you get another tick on your sheet so you could roll a skillup at the end of the session. Of course in CoC it just made it easier for Something Nasty to happen, but for most games tracking how many times I used or rolled a skill during a session in order to gain karma seems kind of tedious.

Nah, we don't need that in SR.
We can do something stupid without reason ^^

[Jaid]

even where you are using skillsofts, it's not like that's the only thing that applies.

if a sammy kills 10 guards, it's very improbable that they used only a weapon skill. it's quite likely that extensive use of infiltration, or some kind of social skill, something from the athletics group, dodge, etc was used. to announce that because the sammy killed 2 with heavy weapons fire means that their other skills suddenly no longer contribute to them gaining karma as well is BS, imo.

and as far as the whole "if it isn't a challenge you don't get karma" thing, i disagree. this is SR4, not D&D. in the right (or wrong, i suppose) situation, that granny with a light pistol is a threat. even if you are an 800 BP runner going up against gangers, those gangers can still be a threat in the right situation. you don't have 400 hit points compared to their ability to do 5 or 6 damage, and it isn't nearly impossible for them to hit you like it is in D&D. if a group of 300 BP gangers using crossbows set up an ambush for you, it is quite possible that you are going to die. they are absolutely a real threat, and no amount of labeling them as grunts or as unchallenging opposition is going to change that fact. even a high-powered character with 600+ BP is threatened by them.

[Stahlseele]

As of SR4.
A Troll in SR3 would have called that a nice warm-up *snickers*

[Malachi]

Yeah, that other system tends to lead to extremely meta-game decisions as depicted here.

[Zaranthan]

In all fairness, the point of the comic is to hang lampshades all over the game for humor. In a more serious game, the wizard would be saying, "Lady, I can move mountains with my fingertips. I'll cast a spell to protect us from the flames." And before anyone drops the phrase "That Other Game" again, our wizards aren't any different. We've got Heal and Cold Aura, too.