Interrupt Actions: Full Defense & Martial Arts Throws Options

[Writer]

As much as I would like to interpret the rules to fit my own desires, I still don't see how this would work. The first sentence, "A character using Full Defense who successfully blocks or parries a melee combat attack may choose to throw her opponent as part of the defense" specifically states that the character must ALREADY be using Full Defense. The last sentence, "The Throw maneuver is considered an interrupt action and uses up the character’s next available action." requires a 'next action' to be available for use. If a character uses the next action to activate Full Defense, it cannot be used for anything else.

I also have a problem with borrowing more than just the next action for anything. If Joe has three IPs, and is fighting Mary, who also has 3 IPs, then they are alternating actions. Let's say Mary attacks first. Joe respondes with Full Defense. This means both of them have used their first IP. Joe can't use his second action until Mary has had a chance to act. They are operating at the same relative speeds, after all. And to suggest that Joe could even use up his third action, for something like Finishing Move, on his first IP leaves poor Mary in the dust. Unless, of course, Mary decides to use her second IP before its time for Full Defense, then her third IP for a Reposte. Does this mean Mary gets to attack, go on Full Defense, and Reposte, before, during or after Joe goes on Full Defense, Throws, and does a Finishing Move? Now, it is getting too complicated and convoluted.

As I understand RAW, Joe can go on Full Defense to defend against Mary. This uses his first IP as Mary uses her first IP to attack. Mary attacks again for her second IP, and Joe remains on Full Defense from his first IP, so he can attempt to Throw Mary. Whether this succeeds or not, Joe has used his second IP during Mary's IP as part of his ongoing defense. If Mary hits the floor, she still gets an action for her third IP before Joe. She may choose to stand up, or go on Full Defense herself, since now she is at a disadvantage. Joe, having created a break in Mary's onslaught, attacks. Keep in mind, this happens after Mary's action. Joe could use Finishing Move, using up the first IP of the next combat turn.

Looking at this example, I realize that Edge could be used to create that extra action needed to go on Full Defense and Throw. Or even, a Throw followed by a Finishing Move. The cost of Edge raises the stakes, but at least it is possible. (I tend to start my characters with low Edge.)

[Draco18s]

Melee combat is weird by RAW and gets very confusing. I do recall one of the devs saying that you could go into "near infinite action dept" with riposte* at some point (that may have been before the wording changing to "up to the first pass of your next round").

*It involves a character using riposte everytime he gets attacked and is attacked by multiple characters multiple times.

Mary attacks again for her second IP, and Joe remains on Full Defense from his first IP

Actually, he doesn't. His turn did come up in the first IP (he still has a free action to move) at which point his Full Defense ends.

[Writer]

Ah, Draco, you are right. Joe would have to continue using his actions, or borrowing his actions, to maintain Full Defense. I hadn't thought of that. So, the only way to use his Throw is to take the attack on Mary's first IP, declare Full Defense on Joe's first IP, then defend during Mary's second IP and borrow Joe's second IP for the Throw.

As for Reposte, it uses up the next available action. In other words, it uses an action. Once that action is used, it cannot be used for anything else, whether that is another Reposte or shooting a gun. So, you only get one Reposte between actions, and you have to set yourself up to Throw your opponent.

I don't buy into the action debt. It you are attacked by four opponents, and you do not have more than one IP per turn, a four action debt would mean you were standing around for about twelve seconds, not even in Full Defense, while the world revolves around you. Three seconds is a LONG time in a fight, so twelve seconds becomes irrational.

[Draco18s]

Pretty much why I'd allow a full defense + throw as a single interrupt. Likely using up only one complex action due to the fact that it's been shown that throws don't take much, but by RAW it'd take up two. My group has already house ruled melee combat into simple actions to maintain the fact that punches are easy and that someone who's good at them can keep pace with high caliber automatic weapons.

I don't buy into the action debt. It you are attacked by four opponents, and you do not have more than one IP per turn, a four action debt would mean you were standing around for about twelve seconds, not even in Full Defense, while the world revolves around you. Three seconds is a LONG time in a fight, so twelve seconds becomes irrational.

Oh, I quite agree. It was just something posted by a dev commenting on how RAW does allow for it.

[Writer]

Ah, so instead of "next available Complex Action" it would be "next available simple action"?

I like that. Do you run into players shooting as a simple action, then going on Full Defense as another simple action?

By the way, I believe the fastest recorded series of punches was 9 per second, while kicks are only 7 per second. I have seen video of Wing Chun experts rapid fire into their opponents with blurring speed.

Of course, Shadowrun mechanics abstracts the action, but a Throw or a Reposte, as reactive actions, shouldn't take up so much time and effort.

[Draco18s]

No, no, full defense is still a complex action. It was the melee attacks that got reduced to simple actions.

We never got into riposte actions at all. We had all of two characters who could do melee combat (neither of us had riposte) and I was saving mine for when I had to bite people's heads off as a dragon. Which I never got the chance to do, sadly.

[Writer]

Ah, okay. That makes more sense. I like your idea, though.

In the end, I think Sweep can be interpretted as an aggressive Throw, and Throw is left for people who really are holding back defensively.

Jacob didn't even flinch as his opponent suddenly transformed into a draco-form. Jacob was maintaining Full Defense, after all. When the drake attacked, Jacob simply had to grab an eye tooth, hook the lower jaw and flip! At least, that's what the drake imagined Jacob was thinking as he let Jacob's head roll from his tongue.

[Draco18s]

Hehehe.
(Due note that we've received word, from Tyger Eyes that changing form for drakes and shapshifters is a complex action (Jacob would have needed to go on the defense twice), but that was amusing to read)

[Writer]

Yeah, poor Jacob. If only his author was kind enough to make him rethink his tactics on his second complex action. On the other hand, I don't think this Jacob was too bright, so maybe a complex action is "sudden" for him.

[Kev]

Pretty much why I'd allow a full defense + throw as a single interrupt. Likely using up only one complex action due to the fact that it's been shown that throws don't take much, but by RAW it'd take up two. My group has already house ruled melee combat into simple actions to maintain the fact that punches are easy and that someone who's good at them can keep pace with high caliber automatic weapons.



Oh, I quite agree. It was just something posted by a dev commenting on how RAW does allow for it.

The way I figure it, melee combat sucks enough as-is, so having the Full Defense+Throw be considered one action is good. Any OTHER throws, though, would be another interrupt action. I can see how the Riposte ad nauseum is a problem, but on the other side of it, infinite riposte is what really good martial arts can do in real life (I know, I know - game balance) if attacked by multiple enemies, so I don't see a problem with it.

You should declare full defense and, if you have Throw or Riposte, you just use them against anyone who attacks you. Like a real martial artist would. If in question, see Steven Seagal.

[Writer]

I liked the old-school Shadowrun rules where, even if you were the attacker, if the defender scored more successes, they would do the damage. It made melee combat seem faster, and replicated the dangers of close combat.