[X] My Assistant

[Draco18s]

That is all very nice, but it doesn't matter.

I have magic 5, spellcasting 5 and cast force 5. I get 3 successes (average) with control thoughts. Victim has will of 3 and gets one success. I've got him.
Every 5 turns my victim could spend a complex action to try to shake off the effects. But I'm running control thoughts, so I don't think I'll have him do that.

So as your FIRST complex action spell directing control thoughts you tell the person you're controlling "not to resist." Mm, got it.

As your second he shoots the mage.

Somehow I think they get to resist anyway, side effect of "holding the spell too long" kind of deal.

Most/many GMs also institute an additional check anytime the action/thought being given is somehow harmful to the person being controlled. It's way, way to cheesy to mind control someone and tell them to shoot themselves.

Personally, if it's detrimental to the person (shooting a friend, destroying one's own property) they get an immediate resist check (Will + CS), if it directly harms the person (shooting themselves, walking off a cliff) then they immediately get a double resist check (Will * 2 + CS * 2).

Then even your Willpower 3 targets end up breaking your hold over them if you direct them to inflict damage to themselves on a regular basis.

Fits right in with Alter Memory forcing an additional resist check anytime new evidence is presented to the target indicating that their memories are false (it's what keeps Alter Memories at Force 6 from lasting 36 months (!!!) on average for a willpower 3 target).

[kzt]

So as your FIRST complex action spell directing control thoughts you tell the person you're controlling "not to resist." Mm, got it.

As your second he shoots the mage.

Somehow I think they get to resist anyway, side effect of "holding the spell too long" kind of deal.

Perhaps you haven't read the actual rules recently:

"Mental Manipulations: For Mental Manipulation spells, the caster makes an Opposed Magic + Spellcasting Test against the target’s Willpower (+ Counterspelling, if available). If the caster scores more hits, she controls the target as noted in the spell description.

"Every (Force) Combat Turns, the victim may spend a Complex Action to shake off the mental control. The victim rolls a Willpower (+ Counterspelling) Test; each hit reduces the net hits on the caster’s original Spellcasting Test. If the spellcaster’s net hits are reduced to 0, the spell no longer affects the target."

He gets the initial resisance roll automatically (and since it's will against magic + spellcasting he fails), the next possibility isn't for Force turns and requires the use of a complex action. If I control the targets actions, I don't think I want them to shake off the spell. So I don't let them spend that complex action.

Is it grossly overpowered? Unbalanced? It's magic in SR, of course it's grossly overpowered and unbalanced.

I don't write these crappy rules, I just have to play with them.

This was one case where everyone at the table looked at it and decided it was just too ugly to allow in our game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Perhaps you haven't read the actual rules recently:

"Mental Manipulations: For Mental Manipulation spells, the caster makes an Opposed Magic + Spellcasting Test against the target’s Willpower (+ Counterspelling, if available). If the caster scores more hits, she controls the target as noted in the spell description.

"Every (Force) Combat Turns, the victim may spend a Complex Action to shake off the mental control. The victim rolls a Willpower (+ Counterspelling) Test; each hit reduces the net hits on the caster’s original Spellcasting Test. If the spellcaster’s net hits are reduced to 0, the spell no longer affects the target."

He gets the initial resisance roll automatically (and since it's will against magic + spellcasting he fails), the next possibility isn't for Force turns and requires the use of a complex action. If I control the targets actions, I don't think I want them to shake off the spell. So I don't let them spend that complex action.

Is it grossly overpowered? Unbalanced? It's magic in SR, of course it's grossly overpowered and unbalanced.

I don't write these crappy rules, I just have to play with them.

This was one case where everyone at the table looked at it and decided it was just too ugly to allow in our game.

They are powerful, But I would have to disagree... We give the target the opportunity to shake it off, which is clearly the intent of the rules... so for that attempt, the mage loses out on a complex action every Force Turns... not a big deal in most instances...

[Draco18s]

Is it grossly overpowered? Unbalanced? It's magic in SR, of course it's grossly overpowered and unbalanced.

I don't write these crappy rules, I just have to play with them.

This was one case where everyone at the table looked at it and decided it was just too ugly to allow in our game.

So, take a look at my suggested fixes:

1) The target gets the resists anyway.
2) The target gets EXTRA resists anytime the action is something s/he wouldn't normally do (injure him/herself or a loyal friend)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, take a look at my suggested fixes:

1) The target gets the resists anyway.
2) The target gets EXTRA resists anytime the action is something s/he wouldn't normally do (injure him/herself or a loyal friend)

And if the intent of the rules is not enough (as stated in the BBB), then Draco18s suggestions are a good place to regroup from...

[Draco18s]

My GM has ussually given the target bonus willpower dice depending on how controversial the action was (for example: shooting a bystander that the target doesn't know: +1, shooting someone the target does know but doesn't have feelings for, +2, shooting a coworker +3, shooting a friend +4, shooting self +9).

Sometimes the bonus dice weren't quite that well defined, but more along the lines of "No, (I don't want you to | you shouldn't) be able to do that! +6 dice."

Often times it doesn't matter.

[Shinobi Killfist]

My GM has ussually given the target bonus willpower dice depending on how controversial the action was (for example: shooting a bystander that the target doesn't know: +1, shooting someone the target does know but doesn't have feelings for, +2, shooting a coworker +3, shooting a friend +4, shooting self +9).

Sometimes the bonus dice weren't quite that well defined, but more along the lines of "No, (I don't want you to | you shouldn't) be able to do that! +6 dice."

Often times it doesn't matter.

I've thought about using the Hero systems mind control difficulty descriptions for mental manips in SR4. Something like +2 dice for every +10 to the ego in hero system. On a basic level is +0 do what you'd do anyways.
+10 do something you are mildly opposed to doing, +20 do something you are strongly opposed to, +30 do something you are diametrically opposed to.

This is an area that really needs an errata or house rules. I wouldn't use kzt's interpretation of control thoughts where you can force people not to resist, and even still its way too overpowered IMO. 5 combat turns is an eternity in a fight, and I wouldn't sweat the drain too much on the AoE version of the spell. Force 3-5 spells should not shut down the entire fight on one cast. Compare it to a combat spell like stunbolt, on average I will need 5 net successes when cast at force 5 to drop Mr. Average. And stunbolt has a lot less utility than control thoughts. A force 3 stunbolt just can't drop Mr. Average without edge. Now sure combat spells get more of a boost when overcasting, but so be it. I think its a fairly good measuring stick for balancing attack spells, what could a direct combat spell do cast at force 5, how many net successes would be needed to remove someone from a fight. If a spell can remove someone cast at that force or less with less successes there is a problem.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've thought about using the Hero systems mind control difficulty descriptions for mental manips in SR4. Something like +2 dice for every +10 to the ego in hero system. On a basic level is +0 do what you'd do anyways.
+10 do something you are mildly opposed to doing, +20 do something you are strongly opposed to, +30 do something you are diametrically opposed to.

This is an area that really needs an errata or house rules. I wouldn't use kzt's interpretation of control thoughts where you can force people not to resist, and even still its way too overpowered IMO. 5 combat turns is an eternity in a fight, and I wouldn't sweat the drain too much on the AoE version of the spell. Force 3-5 spells should not shut down the entire fight on one cast. Compare it to a combat spell like stunbolt, on average I will need 5 net successes when cast at force 5 to drop Mr. Average. And stunbolt has a lot less utility than control thoughts. A force 3 stunbolt just can't drop Mr. Average without edge. Now sure combat spells get more of a boost when overcasting, but so be it. I think its a fairly good measuring stick for balancing attack spells, what could a direct combat spell do cast at force 5, how many net successes would be needed to remove someone from a fight. If a spell can remove someone cast at that force or less with less successes there is a problem.

That is a very good way of looking at the situation... Keeps the playing field somewhat "fair"

[kzt]

I wouldn't use kzt's interpretation of control thoughts where you can force people not to resist, and even still its way too overpowered IMO.

We never had anyone who got mind controlled who lived to Force turns.

The issue with it ending the fight was exactly the issue. You pushed the "I win" button with the spell.

I keep toying with trying to convert SR to hero, but it's a huge task and you lose a lot of the flavor. Of course, you also lose a lot of craziness. The cost of area effect ALD Mental Invisible Power effect Energy blasts makes stun balls a lot less overpowering.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

We never had anyone who got mind controlled who lived to Force turns.

The issue with it ending the fight was exactly the issue. You pushed the "I win" button with the spell.

I keep toying with trying to convert SR to hero, but it's a huge task and you lose a lot of the flavor. Of course, you also lose a lot of craziness. The cost of area effect ALD Mental Invisible Power effect Energy blasts makes stun balls a lot less overpowering.

Try Cyber Hero... Most of the work is done for you already...

[Shinobi Killfist]

We never had anyone who got mind controlled who lived to Force turns.

The issue with it ending the fight was exactly the issue. You pushed the "I win" button with the spell.

I keep toying with trying to convert SR to hero, but it's a huge task and you lose a lot of the flavor. Of course, you also lose a lot of craziness. The cost of area effect ALD Mental Invisible Power effect Energy blasts makes stun balls a lot less overpowering.

Yeah combat's don't last 5 CTs in my games. But I still would not like it because it opens its out of combat utility too much for my taste.

[Mäx]

Yeah combat's don't last 5 CTs in my games. But I still would not like it because it opens its out of combat utility too much for my taste.

That 5 CTs is 15 seconds, so they get to resist 4 times a minute, it isn't gonna take them long to completdly resist.

[Shinobi Killfist]

That 5 CTs is 15 seconds, so they get to resist 4 times a minute, it isn't gonna take them long to completdly resist.

Which is why I don't like kzt's idea of using one of your command actions to order the person not to resist the spell. And i prefer that they get a resistance check no matter what. 1 minute out of combat isn't much time, but controlled until I go to sleep is a bit much. We just don't use them in our Saturday game, its not a big loss IMO.

[Mordinvan]

And if the intent of the rules is not enough (as stated in the BBB), then Draco18s suggestions are a good place to regroup from...

I just think this would be a good place to ask AH what's supposed to happen. Get it from the horse's mouth so to speak. My take on it is that you DO get the resist every force rounds regardless of what the controlling mage wants. A question I have however is could you cast control thoughts on someone you've already cast control thoughts on, and order then not to resist the second casting to get a better 'grip' on them. One might also want to keep in mind this IS the sort of spell which virtually anyone would try to resist with edge if they possibly could.

[Floyd]

Perhaps you didn't realized there in more that one definition to the word "may"

"Every (Force) Combat Turns, the victim may spend a Complex Action to shake off the mental control. The victim rolls a Willpower (+ Counterspelling) Test; each hit reduces the net hits on the caster’s original Spellcasting Test. If the spellcaster’s net hits are reduced to 0, the spell no longer affects the target."

I believe the term 'may' is used, not as "it's possible he will try to shake it off", but as "The target is ALLOWED to shake it off whether or not the controlling mage will let them." As in the phrase:

"Mother, may I shake off the mind control?"
"Yes, dear, you may."

This is a resistance test. I don't know if it Rules as Written anywhere, but I believe it is automatic and cannot be alter by standard penalties (wounds and such) but only specific penalties (drug and whot).
This is like getting you full body to resist damge even in the face of wound penalties. (have I been doing that wrong?)

[Draco18s]

This is like getting you full body to resist damge even in the face of wound penalties. (have I been doing that wrong?)

No, that's correct.

You don't suddenly start taking more damage because you're wounded (though in Albedo you do, but that has to do with the fact that your armor took damage as well, but it lacks an armor HP system, so it's abstracted--you tend to have trinary health levels anyway:

Fully healed
Wounded
Dead

There are a few levels of wounded (like SR3), but if you survive a mission you tend to get new armor for free (and spend 2 to 6 months in the hospital). The army is awesome like that.

[Jaid]

i would have to say that if the mage orders the target to not resist, the target still gets to resist. it doesn't say the target can choose, it says the target may do it (ie it can do it). but as has been pointed out, in combat that isn't terribly relevant.

in any case, some kind of additional resistance roll (much like what is found in the alter memory and influence spells) would make a great deal more sense. the only other rule i've heard as being used is that some people require the mage to take an action to command the targets, and until then the targets do whatever they want. probably helps a little, at least.