Everyone gets 1 IP!, The so-called "economy of actions" Options

[Veggiesama]

Let's say you get rid of the whole idea of "initiative passes." Everyone takes one set of actions per combat turn.

Wired reflexes, improved reflexes, etc. would have reduced functioning, so let's say their prices are reduced by a large amount (nuyen, drain rating, etc. all get chopped down). They would still give bonuses to initiative, possibly Reaction, or Dodge skill, or whatever.

Do you think a change like this would make Shadowrun 4 combat more or less fun for a greater number of players (obviously combat monkeys would grumble, but would it really make them terribly worse at what they do?)? Would it make character creation more fun if you didn't have to worry about IP boosters? Would it make throwing street thugs and goons at players more fun from the GM's perspective?

I don't have enough experience with the system to judge. I am curious what other issues a house-rule like this might bring up.

I was playing with a group of new players the other day, and one of the first things I noticed was that they made the mistake of not gobbling up enough IP boosters (my hacker and drones were running around with 3 IPs, while the street sam and mage had 1 each). It seemed lame to be stuck with 1 action just because you didn't realize how ridiculously important IPs were.

[BlueMax]

My Sunday Night game plays with 3 IP for all characters. Its more like 1 IP though.

The only noticeable gameplay difference, mages rock a few magic harder. A hidden difference, its easier to calculate movement.

It takes away some color. However, for ancient timers like myself... the fact that extra IP are after everyone acts took much more.

[Red-ROM]

take some cram, spend some edge. its what my NPC's do. I don't think every character needs 3 IP's all the time. mages can summon spirits with 2 IP's, riggers and hackers get 2 or 3 when online (and when aren't they?) and drones get 3, so if you're a street sam that wants to be fast, sure, get move by wire. if you want to be a slow tank take cyber arms and torso loaded with armor and body and all those kinds of toys, then laugh at the guy that hit you 4 times to no avail. I like the "faster than humanly possible" option. but I think its not a big deal if you don't have it. let's face it, between Asteral perception scouting and all the matrix stuff, the super fast street sam is spending a lot of time sitting around waiting for his or her turn as well.

[Veggiesama]

My Sunday Night game plays with 3 IP for all characters. Its more like 1 IP though.

I'm assuming all the enemies only get 1 IP in that game too (unless they're boosted somehow)?

Hmm, here's an interesting idea. What if by default all characters get 2 IPs instead of 1? So instead of 1 IP dude vs 4 IP dude (that's 4 actions for every 1 action), it'd be 2 IP vs 5 IP (or 2.5 actions for every 1 action, at most). In the case of simple wired reflexes, that'd be 3 vs 2 instead of 2 vs 1. Still an advantage, but not doubly so.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I'm assuming all the enemies only get 1 IP in that game too (unless they're boosted somehow)?

Hmm, here's an interesting idea. What if by default all characters get 2 IPs instead of 1? So instead of 1 IP dude vs 4 IP dude (that's 4 actions for every 1 action), it'd be 2 IP vs 5 IP (or 2.5 actions for every 1 action, at most). In the case of simple wired reflexes, that'd be 3 vs 2 instead of 2 vs 1. Still an advantage, but not doubly so.

Everyone has 3 IPs. Which means its basically the same as saying everyone has 1 IP, except for movement and a few other factors that carry over between passes but not turns.

[BlueMax]

I'm assuming all the enemies only get 1 IP in that game too (unless they're boosted somehow)?

Hmm, here's an interesting idea. What if by default all characters get 2 IPs instead of 1? So instead of 1 IP dude vs 4 IP dude (that's 4 actions for every 1 action), it'd be 2 IP vs 5 IP (or 2.5 actions for every 1 action, at most). In the case of simple wired reflexes, that'd be 3 vs 2 instead of 2 vs 1. Still an advantage, but not doubly so.

Everyone gets the same IP.

[Raizer]

My advice for anyone wanting to slow down combat and only give everyone one pass is allow anything that gives extra passes to equate to an bonus of 2x rating to all physical actions:

IE: Wired 3 character would get +6 dice to defense, +6 dice attack

[Malachi]

A short time ago there were a couple threads that hashed this topic out quite a bit. One of them did a real good job compiling a list of suggested alternatives to the system. Now, I'm an old-timer and I remember the SR2 days. If your group's Move-by-Wire Sammie rolled a 38 for Initiative and you (the lowly Mage) rolled a 5, you had to wait while the Sammie took a pass at 38, another at 28, another at 18, and his final one at 8... and then it was your turn.... and there was nothing left to do.

SR4's system doesn't look so bad now, does it?

[SpasticTeapot]

I'm tempted to limit Wired Reflexes to level 2 and jack up the cost and penalties (either you're a twitchy freak, or it's turned off), limit synaptic boosters to level 1 and raise the cost about 2.5x, and increase the cost of MBW to something silly (and that pesky temporal lobe epilepsy might show up more often, too...)

This will both slow down the game and give an edge to adepts, for whom spending 5 magic on 4IP suddenly makes loads and loads of sense.

[Mäx]

I'm tempted to limit Wired Reflexes to level 2 and jack up the cost and penalties (either you're a twitchy freak, or it's turned off), limit synaptic boosters to level 1 and raise the cost about 2.5x, and increase the cost of MBW to something silly (and that pesky temporal lobe epilepsy might show up more often, too...)

This will both slow down the game and give an edge to adepts, for whom spending 5 magic on 4IP suddenly makes loads and loads of sense.

Thats a great idea............NO
So your gonna make adept even more OP, their allready the only ones who can easily get 4 IP:s at chargen(especially know that SR4A lowered the cost to 1,5/2,5/4)
and you plannning make the other options even worse, thats a good idea.

Don't be suprised when you get handed charsheets for an all adept party.

[ElFenrir]

I've heard of people dropping the price and essence of all of the reflex boosters, and having them only add to Initiative/Reaction instead; and everyone gets 1 IP-with the option of spending Edge to get another pass.

I haven't played it, but reports said it worked well; it did lead to folks spending some points toward Edge, but they didn't end up with a whole party of Mr. Luckies or anything.

[crazyconscript]

To be honest, i dont like the idea of changing the IP system to less actions per turn. Whenever i GM a game, we have a good spread of IP's with 1 (the non-com) 2 (the CC adept) and 3 (the gun-adept). Yes the 3IP adept tends to kill things in the face pretty damned quickly with his 6 Ruger shots every combat turn, but the characters with less IP dont really mind as they still do stuff, and have the option of burning edge to go again. They also tend to hold actions a lot.

If ever i did modify the IP system (which i probably wont) it would be to go with giving everyone 2IP's base, with bonus's staying the same. I dont think i would like it myself as a GM though with that may passes, as each turn would start taking a lot longer.

[BlueMax]

A short time ago there were a couple threads that hashed this topic out quite a bit. One of them did a real good job compiling a list of suggested alternatives to the system. Now, I'm an old-timer and I remember the SR2 days. If your group's Move-by-Wire Sammie rolled a 38 for Initiative and you (the lowly Mage) rolled a 5, you had to wait while the Sammie took a pass at 38, another at 28, another at 18, and his final one at 8... and then it was your turn.... and there was nothing left to do.

SR4's system doesn't look so bad now, does it?

Thanks for making me miss the old days. And I used to play the Shaman.
There was plenty left to do though.

[Malachi]

... 6 Ruger shots every combat turn ...

Is he wielding two Warhawks or did you forget that its a Single Shot pistol?

[Kingboy]

Is he wielding two Warhawks or did you forget that its a Single Shot pistol?

I'd wager dimes to donuts the gunslinger is using two Warhawks. Dual wielding gun adept is a fairly common build, and alternating between two weapons to ameliorate recoil/firing mode issues is one of the better uses for that setup.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

On the topic of Matched IP's... Would you enforce that on all aspects of the game? Would spirits only have a single IP? How about Drones?

I will agree that when everyone has 3 IP's then it is no different than if everyone has 1 IP... However, that would seriously alter a great amount of technology and many options from the system... Any ideas on how to reconcile that? Just Curious... I know you were asking for opinions on that very matter...

We have had no real problems in our campaign between those with the single IP vs. those with the 4 IPs... Two of us also have 2 IPs and 2 have 3 IPs... Hacker has 4 in the Matrix or when Jumped into a Drone.

Two Obvious benefits for High IP's...
1. If characters possess 3 or more Physical IPs, then Spirits are at a possible handicap for those who are faster than they are...
2. Same goes for the Hackers who have 4 IPs in the matrix...
3. And don't forget that all drones have a base of 3 IPs...

These are reasons to seek out these pieces of equipment or magical augmentation. Without them, the sprites, spirits, and drones have to potential to run rampant over those with less IPs. it is whay it is good for a team to have a good mix of IPs, so that they have options to make a difference in the various scenarios that can come up in combat... when you have more options, it is a good thing...

By the same token, making all things equal in the IP category, well it removes some of the flavor of the game (but definitely not all)... The groundbreaking Cyberpunk roleplaying game by R. Talsorian provided only single actions per round for all character types... Matrix, Street Sam, Drones, and even the 'Borgs... unless something changed in later editions...

Just My Two Cents

[Veggiesama]

The main reason I bring this up is for three reasons:
1. If 90% of combat monkeys need to have bonus IPs, then getting bonus IPs is practically a non-option.
2. IP boosts cost a LOT of essence/magic/etc. Think of how many new options you'd have if you didn't have to worry about bonus IPs as much.
3. Players with lower IPs simply don't get as many rolls (i.e., "stuff to do") in battle. This is perfectly fine if those shine in other, non-combat areas. Everyone should get the "spotlight" eventually.

I really like the "Everyone gets +1 IP" house rule (this would include spirits, mundanes, etc.). Instead of 1-4, you'd have 2-5 possible IPs for meat combat. The ratios between have/have-nots would be a little less overwhelming. Plus movement divides a little easier into 5's I think. PLUS you wouldn't have to rebalance the equipment/forms/etc. as much, I believe, since people could get away with the same # of actions for less.

[psychophipps]

My group has swapped to 1 IP per turn and it's worked out great. We simply made Wired/Boosted/etc IPs also add to Agility equal to their Rating.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hey whatever works...

Cyberpunk does the same thing...

[Raizer]

If you want items with extra IP to mean less, change the combat turn to 6 seconds, each pass being one second and let the characters go using my alternative initiative pass system:
IP Action
pass 1 2 3 4 5 6
1 x 0 0 x 0 0
2 x 0 x 0 x 0
3 x 0 x x 0 x
4 x x 0 x x x
5 x x x x x x

Characters go on a pass with an X in initiative order.

[Draco18s]

If you want items with extra IP to mean less, change the combat turn to 6 seconds, each pass being one second and let the characters go using my alternative initiative pass system:
IP Action
pass 1 2 3 4 5 6
1 x 0 0 x 0 0
2 x 0 x 0 x 0
3 x 0 x x 0 x
4 x x 0 x x x
5 x x x x x x

Characters go on a pass with an X in initiative order.

Did you steal that from Alpha Omega?

No really.

AO uses something very very close to that (it goes 3, then 3&6, 2-4&6, 1-3-5-6, and 1-2-4-5-6 IIRC, and getting up to the 3&6 level is remarkably easy (have 4 of 7 stats which make up Reaction at 11+ (average), getting the next level needs those same stats at 22+!)

[Five Eyes]

I bounced around the idea of removing additional IPs and instead granting a different, substantial bonus in its place.

One consideration was that IPs formed a discretionary pool, which could be spent to increase one's own hits on related rolls. The bonus would equal twice the number of additional IPs but could only be spent in limited amounts on a given thing.

i.e. Street Sam (WR 2) is attacked by two gun-toting thugs. He can use his WR to buy 4 additional hits on his defense rolls against their gunfire, but can only gain a maximum of 2 bonus hits on any one defensive check.

You could further customize this with specialized gear/expert systems/special foci for adepts that would increase the bonus or bonus cap in a given scenario.

i.e. Ares releases the "Best in the West" ™ cyberwrist enhancement, which improves wired reflex functionality for initiative and firing pistols.

It doesn't work that well for drones, matrix combat, or spirits, though.

[Five Eyes]

Double post, oops.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Did you steal that from Alpha Omega?

No really.

AO uses something very very close to that (it goes 3, then 3&6, 2-4&6, 1-3-5-6, and 1-2-4-5-6 IIRC, and getting up to the 3&6 level is remarkably easy (have 4 of 7 stats which make up Reaction at 11+ (average), getting the next level needs those same stats at 22+!)

"Champions" use this as well, though each turn is 12 seconds...

[Heath Robinson]

Oh, hey. A previous topic on the subject.