Astral Tech, Should any of this work? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, he IS Ancient History . .

Too True

[Zaranthan]

This is why I like AH. He makes the rules-lawyer side of my brain go "Squee" while providing enough fluff to completely conceal that fact.

[Stahlseele]

*shrugs*
Chances are good, he was one of, if not THE first who thought up a way to do most of these things in the first way . . or, at least, has been there when it happened ^^

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*shrugs*
Chances are good, he was one of, if not THE first who thought up a way to do most of these things in the first way . . or, at least, has been there when it happened ^^

Definitely been around a while...

[TheForgotten]

I think you're failing to grasp the basic concept here. There are rules for the behavior of spirits; even if you think spirits should work one way the rules still apply. If you order a spirit to act like a dog as a service, it will accommodate you to the best of its ability - but it's understanding and your understanding may well not match, because it is not a dog. Commands like "heel," "stay" and "attack" will be taken as orders, either to end a service or to start a new one. You can loan a spirit to someone else, and they can use its services, but when you use long-term binding with Karma to tie it to a given service the remainder of its services disappear. So assigning a spirit to act as a sheep dog to protect a flock works fine, but it isn't going to take orders from anyone - it might even attack the shepherd if it considers them a threat.

Well according to the rules as written, "incidentals" don't count towards a spirits total services. Why shouldn't what the spirit defines as an incidental service be based on type, tradition and totem? I'm sure there are limits. A dog spirit acting like a service animal won't follow an order to attack (not part of the service animal package) but would like follow stay and heel. On the other hand a dog spirit bound to secure a building would, stay, heel and attack as directed by security, those are part of its package, it would however not go down to the frig and get one of the security detail a coke (at least without a bribe to "break character"). Neither is to likely to start up a conversation. On the other hand a spirit of man could be quite chatty (incidental to any other service) and a task spirit may decide to go "fix" the nearest [skill appropriate] item if it gets bored.

[Ancient History]

If it can be qualified as something that requires the expenditure of a service, it is not incidental.

[Mordinvan]

If it can be qualified as something that requires the expenditure of a service, it is not incidental.

Which depending on the mood of the spirit could mean using is sapience power to answer a question a simple question of "What are you thinking about", or "are you able too..."

[TheForgotten]

If it can be qualified as something that requires the expenditure of a service, it is not incidental.

Not sure that really is a helpful definition. For example:

Defend this building from intruders, can include the subset
Kill the first hostile mage to walk through the front door, which could also be a stand alone service.

How does the spirit know what constitutes an "intruder"? This would require some interaction with the inhabitants of the building. What constitutes defend, kill, incapacitate, hit a panic button and call the star?

Cannon seems to suggest that an extended service can have several parts for example:
If it's after hours, and you see somebody that doesn't belong or you see somebody that doesn't belong on the astral at any time go alert security then try to detain them, go lethal if they start shooting at you. On the other hand having to in effect "program" a spirits services seems a bit at odds with the spirit having the sapience power (though might be in line with how a hermetic views a spirit).

I think what I'm suggesting here is that a long term service imposes a role into a spirit and that what the spirit will consider to be incidental powers will depend on that role. Guard dog doesn't need more services to work with security in the proper manner, seeing eye dog doesn't need any more services to act properly, ect.

[Ancient History]

Not sure that really is a helpful definition.

Spirit services are, by their nature, not specifically detailed in most cases. There's plenty of examples of real-life magical traditions (and fables) that make a point of how a poorly-worded order or wish ends up biting someone in the ass. Let's take your order as an example:

Defend this building from intruders

If you gave this order to the spirit, how would it be interpreted? The spirit could attempt to protect the actual physical building from any direct harm (if so, it's on remote service and its other services may be lost), or seek to prevent entry to the building, either by using its powers (burn a service for continuous use of a power) or attacking anyone that attempts to enter (remote service), or the spirit could simply ward the building (burn a service), or the spirit could go on astral patrol, reporting any invaders, and wait for an order to engage (burn a service per engagement). Any of these are reasonable from the perspective of a spirit.

How does the spirit know what constitutes an "intruder"? This would require some interaction with the inhabitants of the building.

Particularly if the spirit decides the inhabitants of the building are intruders. Here, if your GM is kind, a Logic test might prevail - but really, you should be more specific with your orders, including "Don't hurt anybody wearing one of these tags unless they attack you."

What constitutes defend, kill, incapacitate, hit a panic button and call the star?

Again, specify! The is what leads to apprentice brooms scenarios.

Cannon seems to suggest that an extended service can have several parts for example:
If it's after hours, and you see somebody that doesn't belong or you see somebody that doesn't belong on the astral at any time go alert security then try to detain them, go lethal if they start shooting at you. On the other hand having to in effect "program" a spirits services seems a bit at odds with the spirit having the sapience power (though might be in line with how a hermetic views a spirit).

This is why I suggest an agent with a script above. A spirit should not have to go through a list of if/then/else clauses (and neither should the gamemaster).

An incidental (doesn't cost a service) is something like: asking a spirit to repeat back the order you just gave them to make sure they understand it, a bound spirit nudging its master awake when knocked unconscious (nice GM fiat trick, that), a plant spirit idly plucking a weed while on patrol, etc. Minor modifications to a spirit's remote or long-term service might also count as incidental and not cost a service ("Don't overwater Mr. Mearls prize begonia patch while watering the fields.")

I think what I'm suggesting here is that a long term service imposes a role into a spirit and that what the spirit will consider to be incidental powers will depend on that role.

A long term service is, by definition, a single service stretched out over a longer period. Any assumptions of a role are entirely in your head.

[HappyDaze]

AH seems to forget that many spirts are just as smart - and some are far smarter in both Intuition and Logic - than metahumans. They can reason and problem solve just as well or better than metahumanity and there is nothing that says they try to screw the magician, so if an order is vague, why wouldn't the spirit ask for a clarification? AH's method screams dickery to me, but he's the archetypical AH, so I should just expect it.

[Ancient History]

Depends on how well you treat the spirit. If they have no reason to be inclined to be helpful, then the GM is free to interpret your orders however they want.

As an aside, there's more to intelligence than the Logic and Intuition attributes - but I think we had this argument about sasquatch. A nice GM might be inclined to roll Logic or Intuition to interpret a very vague order.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would say that it often comes down to intent...

My two cents