[X] My Assistant

[GreyBrother]

Last night i flipped through my Rigger 3 and found three described Battle Tanks and some diverse Light Tanks/APCs. They seem to lacking in Arsenal and i am playing with the idea of GMing a campaign where the players are the crews of a vehicle.

Somebody came up with an idea of what profile a Main Battle Tank (Sigur III or the 2070 version of the Abrams) should have?

[toturi]

You can blame the people who keep clamoring for Shadowrun to go back to "street" level. Maybe these people hasn't been to Bangkok lately or have already forgotten Tiananmen Square.

[Prime Mover]

Been talk about a military style arc in the distant future. (conflict in South Am maybe) Maybe someday we'll get a "Fields of Fire" update.

[GreyBrother]

Yeah, talked with a fellow player about playing as a mercenary tank crew and it caught me like it's been the first day i ever heard of it ^^

Anyway, how would you scale the numbers of a Battle Tank? More Armor than Body was something that sprang into my mind. Tracks are a must have and one reinforced heavy Turret. How would Tank Warfare look 2070 or Warfare in General? I just remember some german fan site theorizing about it but it didn't sound right. And where are major wars fought in the 70ties? Arabia? Africa? South America?

[InfinityzeN]

Well you'll get your tanks eventually in the mentioned but not named Merc book due out everntually. You know CGL and their telling us when their releasing something. Though a couple of writers have commented on the book (pretty sure AH and the big man) that I have seen, so we know it will *eventually* be released.

[Dumori]

Yeah and we also know from adams teseing that there will be a plot need for such things.

[Chrysalis]

Merc: 2000 gives lots of ideas for Mercenary campaigns in Thailand...

It also gives reasons why there are few tank mercenaries.

But there is a part of me that wants things that go boom and the cringe that players insist they can use them. I like keeping such big toys in the hands of GMs.

[Warlordtheft]

Didn't LAV's, and magic kind of make tanks a niche item rather than standard milspec items? The Tir Source book has a tid bit story when elves invaded the Cal Free State. Basically describing how a 20th century army fares in the 21st. It describes the use of illusion an mind control spells (on officers) to mess with CNC, dragons and spirits attacking, and the inability of the California national guard to mount a defense.

Not much on eurowars though in any of the sourcebooks (unless I missed something)-mostly just describing strategic level.

Back on topic--As for heavy tanks, there the MIG-67 LAV in arsenal, and in Rigger 1 (1st ed rules) there was the Stonewall MBT. IMHO, you are talking an Armor minimum of 30, and a body of at least 20 for a heavy tank. Speed may be an issue, and why I'd say they are a niche item rather than standard. LAVs fullfill the role of blitzing much better than a tank, though a tank would have better armor. Vehicle mounted lasers and rail guns might make this a moot point (I'd check but my books don't come to work with me).

[Fix-it]

Warlordtheft hit it on the head. in the race between armor and anti-armor, armor never comes out ahead enough to be practical.

LAVs and aircraft made tanks useless due to speed and maneuverability. and "firepower" in the 6th world is such a wild card, heavy cannon don't count for much.

[Kovu Muphasa]

I would love some tanks. in the LA game I am in [Going back to 2nd ed] the LAPD puchased a bunch of old M1A2 Main Battle Tanks for "Patrol Operations"
Yes we had to deal with the LATP "Los Angels Tank Police" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[the_real_elwood]

In some of the fluff shadowtalk in Fields of Fire, they talk about modern Main Battle Tanks having an "antipersonnel zone" that's kept clear of any enemy infantry by automated sentry turrets mounted on the tank. Also the shadowtalk alleges that most of the anti-armor weapons there are pretty much worthless against a MBT. But if you regularly rumble against people packing the vehicle weapons out of Rigger 3, then yeah, you could be in for a world of hurt.

[JoelHalpern]

The big problem I see is that to produce a tank you need to change one of the firm rules in Arsenal, that no vehicle may have more than 20 pts of regular armor. They stuck with that rule even for the large ships (many of which are traditionally armored at least as well as tanks, and usually better.)

Joel Halpern

PS: Yes, I think it reasonable to relax the rule. The ships confused me.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Maybe it is just me, but why would you need (or want) Main Battle Tanks in Shadowrun... Maybe for the Desert Wars, which I could understand, but not for running the shadows in any given city...

Please explain this, as I am having trouble with the concept...

[AngelisStorm]

Tanks today are legal for civilian use, and can be driven on normal roads if they have their tracks replaced with tires. (But I'm sure they make run flat tires in that size. If not, I sure don't see Monster Trucks getting flat tires in short order.)

But what if we want to run a mercenary campaign? Or the runners get into a bad situation, out in the wilderness (or decrepit barrens), and a chase scene ensues where they try to make it to their getaway vehicle, while a MBT is rolling after them and bringing down the buildings they are trying to hide in? And of course, there is always Desert Wars. (But it seems to me military equipment would be very useful for pirate campaigns, and campaigns based out of/around Hong Kong.)

[TonkaTuff]

Maybe it is just me, but why would you need (or want) Main Battle Tanks in Shadowrun... Maybe for the Desert Wars, which I could understand, but not for running the shadows in any given city...

Please explain this, as I am having trouble with the concept...

I think you have it pretty well conceptualized, actually. Most of the people who want stats and info for tanks don't plan on using them in a standard "urban mercenary" shadowrun campaign, but do want to use the rules and concepts to explore a facet of the setting that would include such things (portraying a team in the Desert Wars, say).

[GreyBrother]

Exactly TonkaTuff. As i said, i thought about trying a campaign where the players play a Tank Crew (or LAV, or similar vehicle). Regular Shadowrunner and a frickin Main Gun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) No thanks, there is only that amount of suspension my disbelief can bear.

AngelisStorm: Why Hong Kong? Didn't read Runners Havens.

[Demonseed Elite]

AngelisStorm: Why Hong Kong? Didn't read Runners Havens.

Probably as a central point for an Asian region mercenary campaign. Macao (right across the water from Hong Kong) is a big merc city and Asia has plenty of mercenary job opportunities.

[Apathy]

The advent of magic (and more specifically conjuring) changes the whole paradigm for tanks. Nobody's going to want to spend $3M on a tank that can be taken out with little effort by a materializing F5 spirit that costs almost nothing. Astral defensive measures aren't good enough to completely counter spirits, so stocking a tank with a human crew is just a waste of resources. I can only think of two options to counter this:

• All tanks are [super-sized] unmanned drones.
• Tanks are redesigned to accomodate a single rigger in a form-fitting cocoon with no space for a spirit to manifest in the compartment. (This still might not be sufficient if the crew can be possessed. Maybe combining this with some of the astral defenses that induce a background count to make it harder for the spirits to succeed in possession tests.)

[crizh]

CCU.

Better yet multiple CCU's for multiple 'crew' members....

[Warlordtheft]

Tanks today are legal for civilian use, and can be driven on normal roads if they have their tracks replaced with tires. (But I'm sure they make run flat tires in that size. If not, I sure don't see Monster Trucks getting flat tires in short order.)

But what if we want to run a mercenary campaign? Or the runners get into a bad situation, out in the wilderness (or decrepit barrens), and a chase scene ensues where they try to make it to their getaway vehicle, while a MBT is rolling after them and bringing down the buildings they are trying to hide in? And of course, there is always Desert Wars. (But it seems to me military equipment would be very useful for pirate campaigns, and campaigns based out of/around Hong Kong.)

Best places to run a Merc Campaign IMHO:
Africa
Amazonia Azzie border
China (based out of Macao)
Portugal (would be a base of operations, seeing the world)
Austrailian Outback
Southeast Asia

[Apathy]

CCU.

Better yet multiple CCU's for multiple 'crew' members....

CCUs would give the best performance, but would they be cost-effective for mass production considering their limited shelf life and high maintenance costs?

[crizh]

Well no less cost effective than any other Cyborg.

Can you give a Cyborg Astral Hazing?

[hobgoblin]

i think i have a tank concept somewhere thats a tata hotspur on tracks, fielding a light gauss cannon.

[Critias]

Maybe it is just me, but why would you need (or want) Main Battle Tanks in Shadowrun... Maybe for the Desert Wars, which I could understand, but not for running the shadows in any given city...

Please explain this, as I am having trouble with the concept...

Because there's a whole lot more to Shadowrun, the game world, than Shadowrun, the street-level criminal endeavor.

[Rasumichin]

Maybe it is just me, but why would you need (or want) Main Battle Tanks in Shadowrun... Maybe for the Desert Wars, which I could understand, but not for running the shadows in any given city...

Please explain this, as I am having trouble with the concept...

As Toturi already mentioned upthread, remember Tiananmen Square back in the late 80s or Bangkok right now.
Or Prague in the 1950s or...you see where this leads.

I can completely see how Kenneth Brackhaven would call in the Metroplex Guard to respond with methods we would rather asociate with the PRC nowadays if riots in the sprawl take a particularly nasty direction.
And outdated, tracked tanks not used by the regular army anymore would make for perfect Metroplex Guard equipment.

There you go, tanks on the streets of Seattle.

Unlikely to happen in your campaign?
Well, your mileage may vary -in fact, it's very likely to vary- but the majority of groups i've GMd for would be very prone to start a city-wide riot qualifying as a national emergency if the right factors come together, either by accident or willfully.

Reasons for this could be well-known SR plotlines such as Bug invasions or AIs taking over a local arcology.
Or it could be other factors either directly caused by the players or made a whole lot worse by them.
Factors such as coming out on top of a gang war by whatever means possible (hey, once you start your own gang, you gotta do something worthwhile with it, right?).
Or simply looking for a good use for that entire warehouse full of homemade Warp and ANFO (reminds me, i still have to stat out my mad scientist concept).

Well no less cost effective than any other Cyborg.

Can you give a Cyborg Astral Hazing?

I don't see why it wouldn't be possible- Astral Hazing is entirely possible for purely mundane characters and cyborgs have plenty of reasons to build up the negative emotions that fuel Astral Hazing.

Of course, it would offset what i perceive to be the biggest advantage of 'borgs, their near-invisibility on the astral plane.
In general, a cyborg is per default as well protected from magic as a drone.
Pretty good defense, if you ask me, especially as, unlike the drone, he does not emit wireles signals.
So you get excellent stealth both on the astral and matrix level.
I wouldn't want to compromise one of those advantages by slapping a big, nasty, walking background count on top of Mr. Stealthy.
That's an approach better suited to CZs, IMHO.

But then, this may be not that much of a concern for a frickin' tank rigger, so...yeah, go for it.