[X] My Assistant

[AllTheNothing]

Wards never hurt. Any expensive vehicle like a tank will also have rigger pilots, and not conventional crews, so they'll be less vulnerable to manifesting spirits for lack of free space inside as well.

As far as magic support goes - combined arms have been proven to be superiour to other approaches.

I agreed that magical support never hurts but the free space part doesn't ring true to my ears, there's nothing that set the rules of the size of a materialized spirit, it could be antsized and still pack a nasty elettrical elemental strike against the elettronics or the ammunitions (or it could materialize within the rigger's breathing apparatus (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) ).

[toturi]

Wards never hurt. Any expensive vehicle like a tank will also have rigger pilots, and not conventional crews, so they'll be less vulnerable to manifesting spirits for lack of free space inside as well.

As far as magic support goes - combined arms have been proven to be superiour to other approaches.

I am sure that combined arms has produced results superior other approaches in the short term. But add magic in the mix? Any conflict worth using tanks on is going to produce a lot of Background Count. Should that Background Count last for any significant period of time and given the violence that produces such BC, you are looking at a potential toxic domain. A Domain that enhances the abilities of the threats that it spawns, that degrades your ability to defend against it, with highly valuable but vulnerable assets in theatre.

[AllTheNothing]

I am sure that combined arms has produced results superior other approaches in the short term. But add magic in the mix? Any conflict worth using tanks on is going to produce a lot of Background Count. Should that Background Count last for any significant period of time and given the violence that produces such BC, you are looking at a potential toxic domain. A Domain that enhances the abilities of the threats that it spawns, that degrades your ability to defend against it, with highly valuable but vulnerable assets in theatre.

Background count is going to go up in the area in which fighting takes place, which probably won't be the same over and over, the background count is going to be annoying but it would take some VERY serious dreck to make things go toxic (nuclear weapons or scrotched earth tactics like the one Azzies used in the Yukatan).

[Fuchs]

And not to put too fine a point on it - unless you're of the opinion that spirits somehow can shrink to any size they want (which has ramifications that would change far more than tank tactics) then the tanks have a very good shot at killing spirits. Not much can stand up to a tanks main gun, and not much more can withstand the secondary armament.

[Kovu Muphasa]

This is what we came up for a Moder Game I am running using the SR4 Rules

Name: M1A2 Abrams
Type: MBT
Crew: 4
Handling: -2
Acceleration: 10/20
Speed: 60
Sensor: 3
Body: 35
Armor: 20 [30]
Weapons:
120mm Main Gun [Heavy Manual Flexible Turret] {GM Heavy Cannon}
HMG [Commanders, Remote Flexible Turret] {Ultimax HMG-2}
GPMG [Coaxial] {Ultimax MMG}
GPMG [Loaders Remote Flexible Turret] {Ultimax MMG}
Upgrades: ECM [Rating-2], Level-1 Life Support, Passenger Protection, Satellite Communications, Searchlight, Smart Armor [Rating-10], Smoke Projector, ,Special Armor Protection: Chemical, Radiation [Rating-6], Tracked Vehicle


As far a Spirits, I thought they could not enter a "Sealed Enviroment"?

[Apathy]

And not to put too fine a point on it - unless you're of the opinion that spirits somehow can shrink to any size they want (which has ramifications that would change far more than tank tactics) then the tanks have a very good shot at killing spirits. Not much can stand up to a tanks main gun, and not much more can withstand the secondary armament.

While manifesting spirits might need space, possessing spirits would not need any space whatsoever. As I understand it, the possessing spirit would be able to control the physical actions of the crew member, they wouldn't be able to send any instructions over DNI, so they couldn't take over the tank. Would the possessed rigger still be able to rig (as long as he was plugged in) even while his physical body was taken over? As a related question, what happens when a spirit possessed a CCU brain?

[AllTheNothing]

This is what we came up for a Moder Game I am running using the SR4 Rules

Name: M1A2 Abrams
Type: MBT
Crew: 4
Handling: -2
Acceleration: 10/20
Speed: 60
Sensor: 3
Body: 35
Armor: 20 [30]
Weapons:
120mm Main Gun [Heavy Manual Flexible Turret] {GM Heavy Cannon}
HMG [Commanders, Remote Flexible Turret] {Ultimax HMG-2}
GPMG [Coaxial] {Ultimax MMG}
GPMG [Loaders Remote Flexible Turret] {Ultimax MMG}
Upgrades: ECM [Rating-2], Level-1 Life Support, Passenger Protection, Satellite Communications, Searchlight, Smart Armor [Rating-10], Smoke Projector, ,Special Armor Protection: Chemical, Radiation [Rating-6], Tracked Vehicle


As far a Spirits, I thought they could not enter a "Sealed Enviroment"?

The main cannon manualy operated?

[hobgoblin]

i guess he chose manual as it represents a person in the turret, not that it needs to be hand cranked into posision (altho i guess thats a valid way to read the manual designation, as its never really been specified).

[Kovu Muphasa]

The main cannon manualy operated?

In a Standard M1A2 the Main Gun is amied by the Gunner or the Commander, so I guess the Main Gun and the Coax could be considered Remote?

This is our LATP version

Name: M1A5LATP Abrams
Type: MBT
Crew: 4 [Commander {Mage?}, Gunner {Decker}, Loader {Spirit?}, Driver {Rigger}
Handling: -2
Acceleration: 10/20
Speed: 60
Pilot: 4
Sensor: 4
Body: 35
Armor: 20 [30]
Weapons:
120mm Main Gun [Heavy Manual Flexible Remote Turret] {GM Heavy Cannon}
HMG [Commanders, Remote Flexible Turret] {Ultimax HMG-2}
GPMG [Coaxial Remote Flexible Turret] {Ultimax MMG}
GPMG [Loaders Remote Flexible Turret] {Ultimax MMG}
Upgrades: ECM [Rating-6], Electromagnetic Shielding, Enhanced Image Screens, Fuzzy Logic, Large Landing Drone Rack, Level-1 Life Support, Manual Control Override, Missile Defense System, Multifuel Engine, Nanomaintenance System, Passenger Protection [Rating-6], Rigger Adaptation, Satellite Communications, Searchlight, Signature Masking [Rating-6], Smart Armor [Rating-10], Smoke Projector, Special Armor Protection: Chemical, Radiation [Rating-6], Tracked Vehicle

[GreyBrother]

Abrams are bigger than Patrol Subs? Who knew (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Seriously: Did i miss an errata or something on Body and Size of Vehicles?

[Apathy]

The M1A2's cannon is loaded manually, as opposed to the T80 which has an autoloader. This is generally faster and more reliable, but requires an additional crew member.

[Warlordtheft]

You could also line the crew comparment with panels of micro organisms (I forget what they are called), that way a spirit can't enter the vehicle. A mage as a vehicle commander??? Not as SOP. But in a Merc or special case yeah, that would be the best spot for him. He should go dual to watch for spirits too. He can also sling spells should he need to.

[AllTheNothing]

You could also line the crew comparment with panels of micro organisms (I forget what they are called), that way a spirit can't enter the vehicle. A mage as a vehicle commander??? Not as SOP. But in a Merc or special case yeah, that would be the best spot for him. He should go dual to watch for spirits too. He can also sling spells should he need to.

Either FAB I or II (memory glitch), what SOP stand for?

[hobgoblin]

Standard Operating Procedure, most likely...

tho reading is as a norwegian makes one think of mushrooms (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Kovu Muphasa]

Either FAB I or II (memory glitch), what SOP stand for?

SOP
Standard Operating Procedure

Commander: A good point was made of some of the reasons to have one. He could also be the one who summoned the spirit to use as the Loader.

Gunner: The Decker makes a good choice. Most of the time he would be spending it operating the local PANs, during combat all he needs is a good gunnery skills.

Loader: A Spirit is good choice for three reasons.
1] 3 IP
2] Never gets Tired
3] When that nasty Enemy Spirit shows up it can deal with it. [As for the Auto-Loaders a friend of mine [A Tanker] told me that in the short term a human loader is faster than an Auto-Loader if you are constantly shifting what ammo you want.]

Driver: A Rigger makes a good choice. He can work most of the systems from his location if anyone gets taken out; he is in one of the most protected locations. As the driver he can concentrate on driving. He will also usually have the time to operate the Drone. Who better to operate the Drones maneuvering than the guy who knows where they will be in the next 3 seconds.

As far as the Drone; A good Hovering Drone with a MG or Ares Alpha can easily help deal with soft targets and scout for you.

[Kovu Muphasa]

I keep forgeting this, The consept of the mage on board was for thike the Platoon Comander, Squad Commander at most. With the LATP Game there was usualy on One per shift.

[AllTheNothing]

As far as the Drone; A good Hovering Drone with a MG or Ares Alpha can easily help deal with soft targets and scout for you.

Or maybe an Ares Firelance Vehicle Laser or a Ares Heavy MP Laser, for not so soft targets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Dumori]

you'd want some thing not too power draining to shoot down missiles and such so not a main weapon such as the Firelance or the ones even bigger.

[Warlordtheft]

I keep forgeting this, The consept of the mage on board was for thike the Platoon Comander, Squad Commander at most. With the LATP Game there was usualy on One per shift.

As a side note, if they don't have a mage, there is no reason to not be buttoned up (all hatches closed and sealed including the commander). As to the loader, yeah humans are faster. Especially since it is their life on the line. A spirit wouldn't do as there is some training involved in the loaders position.

[PBTHHHHT]

SOP
Standard Operating Procedure

Commander: A good point was made of some of the reasons to have one. He could also be the one who summoned the spirit to use as the Loader.

Loader: A Spirit is good choice for three reasons.
1] 3 IP
2] Never gets Tired
3] When that nasty Enemy Spirit shows up it can deal with it. [As for the Auto-Loaders a friend of mine [A Tanker] told me that in the short term a human loader is faster than an Auto-Loader if you are constantly shifting what ammo you want.]

Forget that, I'd rather have the summoner save his service from the spirit for anything else, it's easier and cheaper to have a metahuman loader than burn a service for a spirit who might or might not be able to do this task. Plus, if you're asking the spirit to load the appropriate ammo and such, is that a new service? Depends on the GM.

Plus, the commander for the tank and platoon should focus on his job. The summoner attached to the tank company (more likely a company or even a battalion than a measley platoon) should focus his job as magic support. Forget the whole thing of having him multi task between commanding the tank, commanding the unit and also doing the wiz mojo drek all at once.

[Apathy]

Plus, the commander for the tank and platoon should focus on his job. The summoner attached to the tank company (more likely a company or even a battalion than a measley platoon) should focus his job as magic support. Forget the whole thing of having him multi task between commanding the tank, commanding the unit and also doing the wiz mojo drek all at once.

I have to agree with this. Mages and TMs would not be officers, they'd be warrants. They've got special skills that makes them invaluable, and it's a waste of a limited resource to have them spend their time on anything but their specialty. Command/Control and leadership can be learned by any mundane with decent mental stats, so most officers would be mundane.

[AllTheNothing]

you'd want some thing not too power draining to shoot down missiles and such so not a main weapon such as the Firelance or the ones even bigger.

The Firelance has an internal reserve of 100 PP (10 shots), which is replenished at the rate of 10 PP/minute; take the McDonnel-Douglas Nimrod, it has two weapon mounts so it can pack two different type of weapons, you can arm it with a laser and a machinegun loaded with APDS so that you can kill small target with the machinegun and big ones with the laser, maybe pairing them with Nimrods armed with MG and Outlaw missile lounchers for widespread havock.

[Kovu Muphasa]

Forget that, I'd rather have the summoner save his service from the spirit for anything else, it's easier and cheaper to have a metahuman loader than burn a service for a spirit who might or might not be able to do this task. Plus, if you're asking the spirit to load the appropriate ammo and such, is that a new service? Depends on the GM.

Plus, the commander for the tank and platoon should focus on his job. The summoner attached to the tank company (more likely a company or even a battalion than a measley platoon) should focus his job as magic support. Forget the whole thing of having him multi task between commanding the tank, commanding the unit and also doing the wiz mojo drek all at once.

As a Tank Commander after giving orders and such the TC actuly has very little to in combat other than look for targets. if the Tank is sealed he can't cast out of it. If he is sitting out side the turret hatch in combat he asking for bullet through the head.
As far as Number of Mage's in the military???
As a Military Recruter I would go to MIT&M and recrute like mad, IMHO I think most Sr. NCO's and lesser Officers would tend to be Magicaly active.
I just keep think of the night be for the attck the Sr. Mage Ritualty Summing a massive Elemental with all the others in his "Order to Soak the Drain, but that is another object.
As far as I know haveing a Spirit "Fetch" is not a sevice.

[Apathy]

As a Tank Commander after giving orders and such the TC actuly has very little to in combat other than look for targets. if the Tank is sealed he can't cast out of it. If he is sitting out side the turret hatch in combat he asking for bullet through the head.

While visibility through the periscopes is somewhat limited, TCs can still see out when the hatch is closed. I'd imagine that a 2070 tank would provide better lines of sight via fiberoptic goggles, also. But I think that wouldn't matter, because the mages are better off behind the front lines, providing spell defense, warding, remote spirit services, and ritual castings. In a pinch they could counterattack spirit assaults via astral projection and fast movement across the battlefield.

My experience as a tank commander was that we're constantly busy and would have no time in combat situations for anything as distracting as casting or summoning. The platoon leader's constantly searching for targets, coordinating the platoon's movement so as to minimize exposure, calling in sitreps, figuring out the coordinates of that ridgeline to call in artillery/air support, looking for indications of chemical agents in the enemy artillery fire, watching for ambushes, obsticles, and terrain hazards, etc. I wouldn't want to be in a platoon where the guy in charge didn't consider leading the platoon his primary responsibility.

[Kovu Muphasa]

While visibility through the periscopes is somewhat limited, TCs can still see out when the hatch is closed. I'd imagine that a 2070 tank would provide better lines of sight via fiberoptic goggles, also. But I think that wouldn't matter, because the mages are better off behind the front lines, providing spell defense, warding, remote spirit services, and ritual castings. In a pinch they could counterattack spirit assaults via astral projection and fast movement across the battlefield.

My experience as a tank commander was that we're constantly busy and would have no time in combat situations for anything as distracting as casting or summoning. The platoon leader's constantly searching for targets, coordinating the platoon's movement so as to minimize exposure, calling in sitreps, figuring out the coordinates of that ridgeline to call in artillery/air support, looking for indications of chemical agents in the enemy artillery fire, watching for ambushes, obsticles, and terrain hazards, etc. I wouldn't want to be in a platoon where the guy in charge didn't consider leading the platoon his primary responsibility.

I bow to a real TC, most of what I know is from a Gunner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
As far as the Sitting back and providing spell support, I am to much of a Patton'ist to think that pasive.
Back to the basic tone of the discusion.
I think there is a place for a MBT in SR, even if it is a "Monster"
I still don't see how a "Mage" makes a MBT Obsolite.