Thermographic vision, how does it? Options

[lordnth]

Now would someone explain Thermographic vision to me? Not how it works but how it works in the game.

I've looked though the SR3 main book and see it meantioned but no explantion. If there is an explanation in any SR3 books? If so just LMK.
If it's 4th then can that be quoted to me? Me and my group are all using SR3 and don't have access to SR4.

We are wondering if it's like the thermo in RoboCop (see though walls) or more like Predator (doesn't see though walls or trees).
Any ideas on how thermo would work in SR?
If like the first what would stop the thermo vision? (and wouldn't depth perception be a pain in the bottom?)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Now would someone explain Thermographic vision to me? Not how it works but how it works in the game.

I've looked though the SR3 main book and see it meantioned but no explantion. If there is an explanation in any SR3 books? If so just LMK.
If it's 4th then can that be quoted to me? Me and my group are all using SR3 and don't have access to SR4.

We are wondering if it's like the thermo in RoboCop (see though walls) or more like Predator (doesn't see though walls or trees).
Any ideas on how thermo would work in SR?
If like the first what would stop the thermo vision? (and wouldn't depth perception be a pain in the bottom?)

I would say that standard Thermographic vision does not penetrate barriers... that would be what radar is used for...

Just my Two Cents

[Ed_209a]

Thermographic vision makes an image out of the radiant heat that everything produces.

It can't see through barriers directly, but it can see where a barrier is warmed or cooled by an object behind it.

[blindfox]

i wont get into how thermals work but i feel i can state with some degree of authority what its like in practical application.
im currently deployed in iraq and serve as a gunner for a CROWS (Common Remotely Operated Weapon Station) M2 .50 cal mounted on a heavily armored humvee.
my gun is mounted on top of the truck in a gimble. on one side of the gimble is a box full of ammo with a 5 to 1 tracer mix and on the other side is a sensor unit that includes a day cam and a thermal night cam. both have multiple zooms and focuses that provide a remarkable level of detail at very long or very close ranges.
the system is wired from the mount into the truck to a display unit and control unit which consists of a bunch of switches and a joystick with multiple hats, buttons, and a deadman switch. i can man my gun from the relative safety and comfort of inside the vehicle's armor.
thermal vision shows up in either white hot or you can reverse polarity to black hot. black hot, in my opinion, provides the clearer detail and contrast. it does not allow you to see through materials save for the thinnest of surfaces. for example, hot liquids in a thin plastic bottle or someone standing against thin plastic walls. also, thermals suck in other than ideal weather- during or directly after a rain the ambient temperature of all effected surfaces are relatively the same, reducing the quality of detail and producing a dull, washed-out image. further, during the hours of dusk and dawn, this is also true and for the same reasons but to a lesser degree. i find myself switching between the day and night cams a lot during these periods.
compared with night vision, however, my system prevails at greater distances. this is generally due to the way in which the eye perceives the spectrum of light; it detects more shades of green than any other color in the spectrum.
as far as night vision vs. thermals as pertains to the metahuman eye i couldnt begin to guess, of course, though i imagine it percieves thermals in much the same way as my CROWS does. ive also extensively used thermal sights about the size of a small child's thigh that attach to a rifle's top rails and it has exactly the same effect, insofar as the image i see is concerned.

i'll get off my box now and hope i didnt piss anyone off or come off as a know-it-all ass (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

[Adarael]

You are correct, sir.

Thermographic vision in shadowrun is near infrared - you sense via the IR thrown off by objects. As such, anything that blocks the IR, such as walls, will block the vision.

The major difference is that the spectrum isn't the grayscale of a CROWS system, but colored like the Predator's vision. Much higher detail, though.

[blindfox]

yeah i used to RP it as being like the predator's vision. it wasnt until after i started getting to play with all this new wiz gear that my thoughts on the subject changed. but then, i havent had the opportunity to play any rpg's since i joined until lately so, for me, its always been moot.
besides, since no one can really tell me how the metahuman eye perceives thermally, i think the predator vision works better for fitting in with the flavor of the game

[blindfox]

or perhaps thats the etymological difference between thermal and thermographic
*raised eyebrow*

[Zaranthan]

I would say that thermographic technology looks like predator vision, whereas natural thermo produces a sensation much like traditional color while being completely different. A troll can look at something and tell you what temperature it is much like you or I could look at it and tell you whether it's red or green. It's a subtle difference, but I've had people argue that you can't tell which wall is cooler if they're both painted blue, and that's just a horrible overinterpretation of the metaphor.

[Draco18s]

It's a subtle difference, but I've had people argue that you can't tell which wall is cooler if they're both painted blue, and that's just a horrible overinterpretation of the metaphor.

Obviously they haven't played EverQuest 2.
(Which had a thermographic vision overlay that could be toggled on and off--like putting on "heat vision goggles"--for races that had thermographic sight).

[DireRadiant]

Mechanically in SR3 and SR4 Thermographic vision allows you to use the thermographic vision modifiers in the appropriate table. (Instead of the normal vision mods)

If you want to let it do more then that, such as peek through walls and follow a trail of warm footsteps, that's up to you to add. Though I do want to point out that there are thermosense mods/ware/gear in the game that specifically allow for those particular uses (If I remember correctly).

[Ed_209a]

"Predator vision" is based on false-color processing of thermal images, where temperature ranges are arbitrarily assigned colors by electronics in the sensor. The false color is more helpful in science or industry, than in typical Shadowrun use.

Thermal images for tactical purposes tend to be more like what Blindfox describes. You can Google them for yourself.

(Incidentally, Blindfox, until someone else steps up who has actually used a FLIR/Thermograph on the job, you are the know-it-all. Don't underestimate yourself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

[blindfox]

as far as the false color point is concerned, ive seen it in use mostly in astronomical photos but thats the extent of my knowledge and familiarity on the subject. for good or ill, the false color/ "predator vision" is just the way i go with it. however i think that i temper it with what i know of tactical thermal and FLIR systems in that it is extremely limited by barriers, and the heat generated by the seen area needs to be significantly different from that of the surrounding area (a la footprints). besides, predator being a sci fi flick lends to the SR mechanic of thermographic vision the feel of a vastly different level of technology than most of us are used to in the way that a futuristic sci fi/fantasy genre should. i just likes it is all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

(and thanks Ed. im not a genius or anything but i had that "too smart" social stigma a lot as a kid and it makes me either dumb myself down or cut myself short when i wax intellectual or get too verbose. ive been a gamer for so long that i started to model the kind of person i was into those qualities i found appealing in my rpg characters, hence my decision to join the army. my ratings in rifle, demolitions, stealth, radio communications, et al are pretty high and have dabbled in many archetypes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) )

[Adarael]

An interesting thought I just had...
Thermographic vision in Shadowrun is almost certainly colored rather than grayscale if it's artificial, and explicitly IS colored if natural (mentioned in the 3rd edition Runner's Companion). It's definitely not 'false color' if it's cybereyes or natural, though - it's real color. The cyberware & natural versions work because your brain is reciving and processing a wider spectrum of light. So after at least 20 years of cyberware revisions, I think it's fairly certain your cybereyes are delivering colors of light that the unaugmented literally cannot see. You are seeing spectra which don't make sense ot us unaugmented folks, but would be pretty natural to a troll or dwarf.

[blindfox]

not a bad take on it, really. good thought process.
i wonder then; does it function in much the same way as normal unaugmented night sight does, in that when light conditions deteriorate, the eyes naturally adjust over a period of seconds to allow for more light to enter the pupil and, via the optical nerve, to the brain while the light still filtering through rods and cones slowly dissipates as it flows through this system thereby achieving night vision? that is to say, does thermo vision adjust like accepted physiology? is it a constant perception heightened by low-light conditions or a function that can be turned on or shut off at will, like the function of moving one's limbs?
at least, in the case of the metahuman eye. as far as the cybered alternative i think adarael has that one pretty well stitched up.

[lordnth]

So a character can not use the thermo scope on his rifle (or ask the Dawrf or Troll) to scan the next building to see fi anyone is inside, correct?

I've already got intresting ideas for my next few games. Thanks guys!

[blindfox]

sadly, no, but would that it could.
on that note though i have another tidbit that might be of use, at least as far as our current thermals are concerend:
they cant see through windows. not hardly a damn bit. if the guy has his face right next to the glass you can see a dull and hazy silhouette but that's the best you can hope for. if yer gonna take a shot through the glass you better know where that drek head is before you pull the trigger if you want a first round hit. then again you could always spray and pray if its a machine gun and if its a machine grenade launcher, who cares? take the place apart, go nuts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Link]

Fields of Fire provides the most SR info on this topic AFAIK (didn't see any reference in the SR Companion index).

Thermographic Systems
Thermographic systems read heat (infrared energy) emitted by a target. This type of system provides few details about the target, because it reveals only degrees of heat. SRII assumes that modern (2050) thermal systems actually superimpose the thermographic display over a basic, amplified low-light display for better detail. The result provides insufficient data to gain a bonus or modifier, but does allow the user to navigate past obstacles or differentiate between objects while using the system. Different systems use different colour scales to represent the levels of heat, but most use the following standard. Hot objects (an engine block, a pot of boiling water) show as white, while cool objects (room temperature) show as black, with every temperature difference in between displaying as shades of red or green.
Remember that the system judges “hot� and “cold� in relation to the local air or room temperature. For example, thermographic systems used outside in the winter easily spot a person or vehicle, because they will appear “hot� compared to the air temperature. On the other hand, in the rain forests of South America little difference exists between the ambient temperature (the forest’s “room temperature�) and the radiated body heat of a human being, making thermographic systems all but useless for differentiating between the forest and a person. (Odds are that motion will give the target away, but that’s a different modifier.)
When characters are using thermographic systems, the gamemaster must consider the relative temperature of objects viewed against the ambient temperature to determine if the system detects the target. In other words, objects at a similar temperature show up on the display as similar colours, making it difficult to differentiate between them if they overlap. By definition, thermographic systems also require technology and cannot be used when casting magic. Because the user has paid Essence for thermographic cybereyes, however, the system becomes an accepted part of a character’s body and can be used to cast magic.

Natural Low-Light and Thermal Vision
Natural low-light or thermographic vision, such as the vision elves and dwarfs are born with, or the enhanced senses available to a physical adept or critter, is magical in nature. This type of vision works along principles similar to those of low-light and thermographic systems, but performs better than any technology can. Though a certain biological basis exists to explain this visual ability, much of the effect can only be explained through the application of magic.
Natural low-light or thermographic vision is assumed to be always operating, providing vision enhancements automatically as needed. For example, a troll sees exactly what humans see when looking at the same view, except that every object, person, and so on is tinged with the heat it radiates. The hotter an object, the more brilliant the colour the troll sees. Objects that are much hotter than their environment appear whiter, surrounded by a faint glow. Trolls see this way normally, and therefore can instantly perceive, process, and interpret what they see. Natural low-light or thermal vision is an advantage, not a handicap.

I go with the B&W spectrum blindfox describes for techno systems like goggles and cybereyes (as seen on TV:). Natural thermo uses colours in a broader spectrum that trogs interpret as second nature.
As for seeing through walls I think SR4 has a millimetre wave radar system (cyberware?) that allows this.

[Draco18s]

sadly, no, but would that it could.
on that note though i have another tidbit that might be of use, at least as far as our current thermals are concerend:
they cant see through windows. not hardly a damn bit.

Huh, that explains why birds keep FLYING INTO THE WINDOWS.

Can't see through it != open air.

My dog can totally see me through the glass in the kitchen too, and I don't need to be next to the door. He can tell the difference between me, my dad, and my mom too.

[blindfox]

Huh, that explains why birds keep FLYING INTO THE WINDOWS.

Can't see through it != open air.

My dog can totally see me through the glass in the kitchen too, and I don't need to be next to the door. He can tell the difference between me, my dad, and my mom too.

LMFAO! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

An interesting thought I just had...
Thermographic vision in Shadowrun is almost certainly colored rather than grayscale if it's artificial, and explicitly IS colored if natural (mentioned in the 3rd edition Runner's Companion). It's definitely not 'false color' if it's cybereyes or natural, though - it's real color. The cyberware & natural versions work because your brain is reciving and processing a wider spectrum of light. So after at least 20 years of cyberware revisions, I think it's fairly certain your cybereyes are delivering colors of light that the unaugmented literally cannot see. You are seeing spectra which don't make sense ot us unaugmented folks, but would be pretty natural to a troll or dwarf.

Good way of explaining it, I like it...

[Writer]

I don't think birds have thermographic vision. If they did, they wouldn't fly into windows, as they would see a barrier. Dogs don't even see in color, and definitely do not see in thermographic.

As for infrared light going through windows, I will use your car in the summer as a good illustration. Have you ever wondered why your car gets so hot on a sunny day? The light from the sun, visual light that our human eyes can see, goes right through the glass. It hits the materials inside, and because visible light is still a form of energy, it gets absorbed by the material, then is emitted as heat. (Look up black body radiation.) The energy has shifted in wavelengths, from visible to infrared (heat), and the infrared cannot pass through the glass, so it become stuck inside your car, slowly raising the temperature. It can get to 120 degrees or more inside a car on a 90 degree day. This same concept is why you might see desert people wearing black. White reflects more heat, but certain black materials radiate more heat. With a decent insulator under the black clothing, all you really have to worry about is your own body heat. With the right kind of materials, black will keep you cooler than white.

[EvilP]

I got to briefly play with some infrared binoculars during my time in the Finnish army and it worked as Blindfox says. During a cool day people will show up like white silhouettes against a black-grey background.

An interesting detail - the wheels of moving vehicles were very visible as hot objects underneath an otherwise background temperature truck. They must get heated up by the friction as they roll on the asphalt...

[Draco18s]

I don't think birds have thermographic vision. If they did, they wouldn't fly into windows, as they would see a barrier. Dogs don't even see in color, and definitely do not see in thermographic.

Having or not having thermographic vision doesn't imply "seeing or not seeing" through glass.

And dogs DO see in color, just not the same colors. The idea that dogs only see in gray is a myth, dogs are just Red/Green colorblind.

Edit:
On birds and sight, it was recently found that birds can see the Earth's electromagnetic field.

[Adarael]

Huh, that explains why birds keep FLYING INTO THE WINDOWS.

Can't see through it != open air.

My dog can totally see me through the glass in the kitchen too, and I don't need to be next to the door. He can tell the difference between me, my dad, and my mom too.

It could be that your dog can tell the difference between all of you based on sound and smell. And it could be that the birds fly into windows because, as someone pointed out, they don't see in thermo.

Current gen thermal imaging cannot see through windows. Period. That's just a basic fact of the technology, as it exists in 2009.

[Draco18s]

It could be that your dog can tell the difference between all of you based on sound and smell.

Right. Through an external, weather proof door? Unlikely.