Why are the archetypes so ridiculously bad? Options

[Veggiesama]

Trying to get a new player into the game, and since I knew character creation can be a chore, I recommended that she pick an archetype instead.

She went for the weapons specialist because she wanted to "blow things up" with the Demolitions skill. I said "Cool," then I looked over the stats.

1 IP? Not a single cyber/bioware enhancement? The "Lucky" quality with an edge of THREE? Plus we don't even have a breakdown of stats for new players, like how much damage the Ares Predator does, or what attributes to add when making a skill test (i.e., does Gun Trivia use Logic or Intuition?).

I wasn't expecting an optimized killing machine, but I was hoping that someone named a WEAPONS SPECIALIST could hold her own in a combat.

I plan on going with it anyway and being lenient, but this still bummed me out.

[Ryu]

Sample Character Archive

[Dhaise]

I hold to the theory that the archetypes are deliberately designed that way so when you actually make a character that can hit the broad side of a barn with a combat shotgun, you feel like Batman.

[Rasumichin]

As a GM, i've always used the sample archetypes as NPCs of the "slightly above average cannon fodder" variety and fared well with this...but still, i always got the intention that in every edition, they had been designed specifically to punish players who were too lazy to stat out their own characters.

Either that or the devs where afraid that reliable archetypes could teach new players to twink out their characters before they bought any rules supplements for that purpose.

[BlueMax]

As a GM, i've always used the sample archetypes as NPCs of the "slightly above average cannon fodder" variety and fared well with this...but still, i always got the intention that in every edition, they had been designed specifically to punish players who were too lazy to stat out their own characters.

Either that or the devs where afraid that reliable archetypes could teach new players to twink out their characters before they bought any rules supplements for that purpose.

That worked until I accidentally used 8 of the Sprawl Ganger. One may not be optimized but 8 of them on 3 new 400 pointers was too much.

[Draco18s]

I hold to the theory that the archetypes are deliberately designed that way so when you actually make a character that can hit the broad side of a barn with a combat shotgun, you feel like Batman.

I like this answer.

[Malachi]

The archetypes were revised in SR4A. Personally, I know the proofreader pool put some good suggestions into improving them.

Bounty Hunter: Yeah, 1 IP, but he's got good body, reaction, and strength.
Combat Mage: Spell selection isn't great, but that's easy to tweak, good "pure combat" magician.
Covert Ops (GREAT new art): Low body, but he is a "don't get caught/in combat" character, good skill selection, nice "batman toolkit" of gear, 1 IP.
Drone Rigger: Optimized for aerial drones, nice selection of drones in general, nice array of skills (including mechanic to maintain drones)
Enforcer (again great new art): Tough as freaking nails (9 Bod, 9 Str), 3 IP's, Skill of 4 in all Firearms and Close Combat
Face: Okay, nice "no downside" attribute array, not great in combat (pistols only, 1 IP), more like a "jack of all trades" character
Gunslinger Adept: Nice dual-pistol build, 9 Rea against ranged, use Attribute Boost (Agility) and wow!, 3 IP's; very playable
Hacker (don't like the new art, actually): Pure hacker, DP 16 for Hacking on the Fly (!), ork body makes him durable, forgery skill; very playable
Occult Investigator (good new art): Nice skills and gear, not a combat optimized character, but that's okay
Radical Eco-Shaman: good concept, Wolf mentor now (+2 combat spells and Beast Spirits), demolitions skill, Critter Form spell is fun
Smuggler: lots of good skills, two good vehicles, nice character as a "pure" wheelman if that's what you want/need
Sprawl Ganger: tough as nails, good combat skills, nice qualities (Guts, Home Ground, Toughness), 1 IP but it fits the concept
Street Sam: oh my, customized limbs now, Agility 8, High Pain Tolerance, Infiltration 4, 3 IP's, 2 Preds, Smartgun, and M202 MMG... wow
Street Shaman: Yuck... concept character, combat paralysis, Rat Mentor, good summoning (5) I guess....
Technomancer: Combat Paraylsis so stay outta combat, lowish CF's so make generous use of Threading, Intuition, Willpower, and Resonance of 5
Weapons Spec: Lots of skills, lots of weapons, yeah... no augmentations, drop Lucky for 20 BP of Augmentations and it'd be much better

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I like this answer.

I don't know, I have used an archtype a time or two and they turned out okay...
matter of fact, one of our alternate games has a charater with an archtype, and he is doing pretty good as well...

[Fix-it]

I don't know, I have used an archtype a time or two and they turned out okay...
matter of fact, one of our alternate games has a charater with an archtype, and he is doing pretty good as well...

a better answer would be that the archetypes are unforgiving, or have no safety margin. they'll do well enough provided you don't do anything stupid.

[Shinobi Killfist]

The archetypes were revised in SR4A. Personally, I know the proofreader pool put some good suggestions into improving them.

Covert Ops (GREAT new art): Low body, but he is a "don't get caught/in combat" character, good skill selection, nice "batman toolkit" of gear, 1 IP.

I preferred the original art, Asian Elf in tight leatherish clothing beats out batman without the cape. Other than that I basically agree with your post.

Personally I have no problem with the majority of the archtypes. They are competent at what they do and they have room to grow.

[Malachi]

Face: Okay, nice "no downside" attribute array, not great in combat (pistols only, 1 IP), more like a "jack of all trades" character

I just noticed now that the Face has Combat Paralysis. This (along with the Street Shaman) is probably one of the worse builds in the book. At least you can simply ditch Exceptional Attribute (Charisma) and remove the Combat Paralysis. He does have a new array of contacts but none of them have a really high loyalty which might just result in him having a higher chance of being sold out by one of them. He also doesn't have Tailor Pheromones, which for a Face is like a Street Sam not having Wired Reflexes.

Also, looking at the Smuggler it looks like something beside the Eurocar Westwind was cut off. It should also have "Rigger Adaptation."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

a better answer would be that the archetypes are unforgiving, or have no safety margin. they'll do well enough provided you don't do anything stupid.

Very Well Put... and very true, no room for mistakes...

[Cain]

I just noticed now that the Face has Combat Paralysis. This (along with the Street Shaman) is probably one of the worse builds in the book. At least you can simply ditch Exceptional Attribute (Charisma) and remove the Combat Paralysis.

Unless they changed it, Combat Paralysis isn't the death sentence many people make it out to be. Frank Trollman did an analysis on it, you should look it up.

Very Well Put... and very true, no room for mistakes...

Having seen archetypes in action, I have to disagree. They can't even handle standard situations in some cases.

[Glyph]

I think the archetypes in the book range from playable (if still far from optimized) to terrible. The trouble with the so-called "weapons specialist" is that it is one of the weakest archetypes in the book. It is more like an "armorer who likes playing with her toys" build.

The archetypes can be very instructive as examples of how not to build a character, though. In the case of the weapons specialist, it is the twin flaws of over-generalization and not taking obvious 'ware such as muscle toner, cybereyes, or any kind of initiative enhancement. Of course, this is the token "pure mundane" build that they have every edition, so that is part of the reason for the suck. But even a pure mundane could be done better.

[Dhaise]

I'm still fond of the SR4 Bounty Hunter relying on weapon skills of 2, an Agility of 3, Flechette Ammo and 1 IP being able to bring in anybody worth an actual bounty. Not being optimized is one thing, being sucky at your job is another.
Oh, his charisma is in the crapper and he's "uncouth",so I guess he better waste space on a runner team so the face can find his quarry and subdue it for him so Mr Unarmed combat 5 can actually get close to his mark without being a wet smear on the ferrocrete.
Luckily, the simp is a 'quick healer'.

I love this Troll. He stuck to concept so tightly that he sucks in just about every aspect of his job.

[TheOOB]

I personally think that the sample characters should be good(not great), and should all contain a section on what that character does and how to play them well. Having to write that section would eliminate say, combat oriented characters with 1 IP. Also, the example characters should all be runners, both in concept and in mechanics, when obviously some of them are not. Take the weapon specialist for example(one of the most poorly designed characters). That is someone who builds weapons and knows how to use some, or possibly a specialist in a military group. They are not someone who hides in the shadows and shoots people right in the face for money, unless you are rocking a 7-8 edge, doing into the shaodws without good ware or magic is suicide.

[Medicineman]

I hold to the theory that the archetypes are deliberately designed that way so when you actually make a character that can hit the broad side of a barn with a combat shotgun, you feel like Batman.

I too think thats the Reason (same with classic Battletech Mechs ,theyre ridicoulosly weak ! Building better ones is easy )

Hough!
Medicineman

[Caadium]

I too think thats the Reason (same with classic Battletech Mechs ,theyre ridicoulosly weak ! Building better ones is easy )

Hough!
Medicineman

I appreciate that they are built in a non-optimal format. With SR, the reality is that most Shadowrunners are street people that are augmenting or whatnot as they go, and are not always able to hold out for what is an 'ideal' build; they simply must take what they can get to survive. The sample characters reflect this.

Classic Battletech mechs are similarly built. Some of the builds are screwy, but most are very usable and nice; with their own strengths and weaknesses. Much like the SR characters, they only seem to be ridiculously weak when compared to optimized min/maxed custom builds.

Just my opinion though.

[Dhaise]

I can agree with that sentiment, but I don't min/max to the nth degree, and my characters will still walk all over an archetype.
I'm 'the guy' who had his former wage mage 'cybered' not with wired reflexes or eyes, but a datajack and display link because he needed them to join the workforce before he realized he had the talent. I typically go a little against type when making my characters because weaknesses can be interesting. Weaknesses usually mean that I have an advantage somewhere to balance it out though.
But, I'm not the guy who makes a troll that skimps on the social skills with nothing but non lethal melee shock gear whose highest skill happens to be unarmed combat, then slaps flechette ammo into a heavy pistol and calls him 'a bounty hunter'. That troll BH in SR4 is worthless because there is no one true strength that character caters to,just a bunch of contradictory choices. We may as well have had a physical adept rigger simsense star.
He stinks enough of suboptimal "with potential buried deep inside' that anybody who wants to improve on him could do so via any of the basic methods of SR character creation: Smart gear choices, cyberware, skill focus, and/or attribute tweaking. And once that player does so to his liking, he feels like Batman for turning a bunch of crap into a winning combo.

[Malachi]

I agree there are some archetypes that don't appear to have the best choices. However, most of what I would consider the "core" archetypes are totally playable:
Street Samurai, Combat Mage, Hacker, Rigger... it would nice to have a good Face, but oh well.

[Jaid]

you don't typically send a bounty hunter after a shadowrunner, you would send a bountyhunter after someone who has skipped going to a court date when they got out on bail.

while the target could theoretically be a shadowrunner, it is substantially more likely to be a drug dealer, pimp, burglar, etc. or, in the case of shadowrun, it could be an 'animal' (or sapient critter without any rights) that needs killing... for example, devil rats, ghouls, etc.

so sure, the bounty hunter is probably not very good at chasing down shadowrunners. but he would probably work ok for bringing a pickpocket in for their trial.

(however, as has been mentioned, this does bring up the point: why is he in the archetype list at all, if he isn't really a shadowrunning archetype to begin with?)

[BlueMax]

(however, as has been mentioned, this does bring up the point: why is he in the archetype list at all, if he isn't really a shadowrunning archetype to begin with?)

I have trouble with anyone stating what should and should not be a Shadowrun Archetype.

The Shadows were once refuge. We had Detectives, Rockers, and even.... Tribesmen.

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Now, get off my lawn.
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[Caadium]

you don't typically send a bounty hunter after a shadowrunner, you would send a bountyhunter after someone who has skipped going to a court date when they got out on bail.

while the target could theoretically be a shadowrunner, it is substantially more likely to be a drug dealer, pimp, burglar, etc. or, in the case of shadowrun, it could be an 'animal' (or sapient critter without any rights) that needs killing... for example, devil rats, ghouls, etc.

so sure, the bounty hunter is probably not very good at chasing down shadowrunners. but he would probably work ok for bringing a pickpocket in for their trial.

(however, as has been mentioned, this does bring up the point: why is he in the archetype list at all, if he isn't really a shadowrunning archetype to begin with?)

He's an archetype because he is the perfect example of someone that becomes a Shadowrunner. He's used to dealing with the underworld, albiet the minor elements of it, he's got what is really a crappy job and can often find himself short on cash. These things combine to make someone that is the poster boy in the corp's "Mr. Johnson's Shadowrunner Recruitment" class.

[paws2sky]

I have trouble with anyone stating what should and should not be a Shadowrun Archetype.

The Shadows were once refuge. We had Detectives, Rockers, and even.... Tribesmen.

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Now, get off my lawn.
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*passes BlueMax more rock salt shotgun shells*
<old guy>Damn whipper snappers!</old guy>

In all seriousness, all kind of folks can be drawn to the shadows and Bounty Hunters are no exception. Of course, if the bounty hunter was more like the old contact, he would have actually been more useful.

-paws

[Malachi]

you don't typically send a bounty hunter after a shadowrunner, you would send a bountyhunter after someone who has skipped going to a court date when they got out on bail.

while the target could theoretically be a shadowrunner, it is substantially more likely to be a drug dealer, pimp, burglar, etc. or, in the case of shadowrun, it could be an 'animal' (or sapient critter without any rights) that needs killing... for example, devil rats, ghouls, etc.

so sure, the bounty hunter is probably not very good at chasing down shadowrunners. but he would probably work ok for bringing a pickpocket in for their trial.

(however, as has been mentioned, this does bring up the point: why is he in the archetype list at all, if he isn't really a shadowrunning archetype to begin with?)

Good point. If one wants a "combat-optimized" character that's been doing the para-military thing for years, there are archetypes that fit that. However, other archetypes follow a different concept. As people have mentioned, previous editions of Shadowrun had a good deal more of these "not a cybered-up or magic slinging killing machine" characters.