RAW v. RAI, FIGHT! Options

[Larme]

They can't automatically set it to close range in SR4A, they can change it by one step in either direction. That might be one thing they changed in 4A.

Also, while you're technically correct that the rest of them can glitch, it's not like glitches don't have consequences -- if they glitch the opposed test, they become uncontrolled and have to make a vehicle test at -2 or crash. And if they critically glitch, they crash. Regardless, I think that "sides" acting as one unit is there to simplify things, and also make them more exciting. It's a lot more fun when you have 5 gangers trying to jump onto your car, instead of just the one guy who made the test. It's set up for car chases to be intense and action packed, rather than "Look at me I customized my enginge VROOOOM gone!" But you could very easily keep track of the individual vehicles, it would require more bookkeeping but it's totally possible if that's what you prefer.

And you're right that there's no reason to be in Medium range, it's just there as a buffer between Short and Long. If you're at Long range, they can't pull you into Short by beating you in the opposed test just once, and likewise you can't blast away from Short to Long just by winning once. The advantage to being in Medium range is that you're one round away from making it to Long and starting to Break Off, and the reason to be there is that you started in Short and you want to try and escape. I don't think that's a hole, it's another one of those "it's not a flaw, it's a feature" things.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

They can't automatically set it to close range in SR4A, they can change it by one step in either direction. That might be one thing they changed in 4A.

Also, while you're technically correct that the rest of them can glitch, it's not like glitches don't have consequences -- if they glitch the opposed test, they become uncontrolled and have to make a vehicle test at -2 or crash. And if they critically glitch, they crash. Regardless, I think that "sides" acting as one unit is there to simplify things, and also make them more exciting. It's a lot more fun when you have 5 gangers trying to jump onto your car, instead of just the one guy who made the test. It's set up for car chases to be intense and action packed, rather than "Look at me I customized my enginge VROOOOM gone!" But you could very easily keep track of the individual vehicles, it would require more bookkeeping but it's totally possible if that's what you prefer.

And you're right that there's no reason to be in Medium range, it's just there as a buffer between Short and Long. If you're at Long range, they can't pull you into Short by beating you in the opposed test just once, and likewise you can't blast away from Short to Long just by winning once. The advantage to being in Medium range is that you're one round away from making it to Long and starting to Break Off, and the reason to be there is that you started in Short and you want to try and escape. I don't think that's a hole, it's another one of those "it's not a flaw, it's a feature" things.

Thanks, You explained that better than I was doing...

[Cain]

Also, while you're technically correct that the rest of them can glitch, it's not like glitches don't have consequences -- if they glitch the opposed test, they become uncontrolled and have to make a vehicle test at -2 or crash. And if they critically glitch, they crash. Regardless, I think that "sides" acting as one unit is there to simplify things, and also make them more exciting. It's a lot more fun when you have 5 gangers trying to jump onto your car, instead of just the one guy who made the test. It's set up for car chases to be intense and action packed, rather than "Look at me I customized my enginge VROOOOM gone!" But you could very easily keep track of the individual vehicles, it would require more bookkeeping but it's totally possible if that's what you prefer.

The bookkeeping isn't "more", it's a nightmare. If you have a ten-member go-gang, you'd need to keep track of ten bikes and their relation to each other, plus the people they're trying to chase.

But the best roll per side doesn't work, either. Let's put the Westwind and the Scoot on the same side, only this time we'll put a rigger in charge of the Westwind. Despite the fact that the Scoot may well be looking at a negative dice pool in order to make the opposed test, because the rigger will win the test each time, the Scoot gets to stay in close range of the Westwind.

And gods help you if there's more than one "side". Then you've got the issue of someone possibly wanting to be a CLose range to one target, but Long range to another; while another side may want something different. It becomes a chaotic mess.

[mugen999]

Bookkeeping can get crazy with multiple vehicles. I use miniatures to defend against this. Draw 2 lines down the center of the map for the road and we literally use Hot Wheels to represent all of the vehicles with little markers that help me keep track of which miniature has what stats. Works like a charm and the players love it too.

[mugen999]

Oh yeah, hello everyone. Long time lurker - first time poster.

[Stahlseele]

You joined 21. of june TWO YEARS AGO and just now wrote your first 2 Postings? O.o;,
welcome aboard, don't step on the drake.

[mugen999]

You joined 21. of june TWO YEARS AGO and just now wrote your first 2 Postings? O.o;,
welcome aboard, don't step on the drake.

Yeah, and I was reading here with no account for a good year before that! Ah well, better late than never.

[Larme]

The bookkeeping isn't "more", it's a nightmare. If you have a ten-member go-gang, you'd need to keep track of ten bikes and their relation to each other, plus the people they're trying to chase.

But the best roll per side doesn't work, either. Let's put the Westwind and the Scoot on the same side, only this time we'll put a rigger in charge of the Westwind. Despite the fact that the Scoot may well be looking at a negative dice pool in order to make the opposed test, because the rigger will win the test each time, the Scoot gets to stay in close range of the Westwind.

I don't think that the best per side "doesn't work." Your objections are based on realism, not on utility. If it doesn't make a fun and enjoyable game, then it doesn't work. If it does, then it works great.

But I don't even think you have to look at it as being unrealistic. If I understand you, your gripe is that because a Dodge Scoot is so much slower that a Westwind, it makes no sense that they'd keep up with each other just because the Westwind rolled well. I think you're looking at it the wrong way though. People on the same "side" are actively trying to keep up with each other, and allow each other to keep up. The Westwind stays apace with the Scoot because it wants to, not because the Scoot starts driving 4x faster than its top speed. The rigger's success might simply be to lead the Scoot through traffic in such away that both vehicles pull ahead of the opposition, or it might be to turn off at the right time, when the opponents don't expect it. However you want to explain it, there has to be an understanding that vehicles on each side are consciously trying not to ditch each other. If they don't care, then they can't really be represented as the same side in this system. You can picture this scenario as a Dodge Scoot going 300 meters per turn, and then throw up your hands and say it doesn't work. Or, you can picture it as a Eurocar going closer to 100 meters per turn, and the Scoot managing to keep up just barely. They pull ahead not by going faster, but by being more clever than their opponents. The only time where speed is the sole factor, or even the most important factor in a chase is when you're in the open desert with no terrain, and it's simply a race. But that scenario falls pretty well outside of what chase combat represents.

And gods help you if there's more than one "side". Then you've got the issue of someone possibly wanting to be a Close range to one target, but Long range to another; while another side may want something different. It becomes a chaotic mess.

'
It doesn't sound that hard to me. First of all, you couldn't be Short from one party and not be Short from all other parties at the same range. You couldn't be in range to jump onto a truck, but also be at Long range from another group that's also jumping onto the same truck. Now, you could be, for instance, Medium from one party and Long from another. That simply represents that you're in front of the guys you're Medium to, and the guys you're Long to are behind them. Or vice versa. But the bookkeeping sounds pretty easy -- just create a matrix for each party, with a row and a colmn for each opposing side. Then, when Corpers become Medium to Runners and Long to Cops, you just change the values in the table to represent that. If I understand correctly, only one winner of the Opposed test gets to change the ranges. That would be a nightmare if all of them could try and change ranges at once. But all you do is step the ranges for the one party who won, however that party wants. It would probably work best with an Excel sheet, because that way you wouldn't have to fill multiple pages with charts, or continually erase.

[crash2029]

It looks like even under SR4A you need to spend some time wrecking a few of your opponents before you can escape. I like how chase combat is abstract, as even if you have a sports car with a max speed of 3000, there's no way to move that fast unless you're screaming across the open desert or an empty highway. If you're being chased through the city, you need to do more than drive fast, because the game assumes you're not able to simply drive in a straight line until your opponents lose sight of you. You have to spend some time using Cut Off to make them crash, or you could lay down some oil slicks, or you could very easily terminate all the opposition at once with a single zapper strip from your road strip ejector. Or there's always the good ol' fashioned machine gun... Either way, chase combat definitely has combat as an operative word.

That said, it really doesn't make sense for all situations, like if you're flying away in a helicopter and your opponents are driving motorcycles. Hell, technically, RAW says nothing about air or water. According to RAW, there's no problem with a jet ski chasing a sports car over land, or a motorcycles chasing a submarine under water. That's one of the "gaps" you need to fill in using common sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Although I could see some odd situations where it holds together, like a car using Cut Off against a helicopter, making a crazy maneuver that forces the copter pilot to crash (or almost crash) to keep sight of the car. But there's definitely an issue of RAW vs. RAI that everyone needs to be aware of when using chase combat because of how highly abstract it is.

Didn't that happen in Die Hard 4?

[Cain]

I don't think that the best per side "doesn't work." Your objections are based on realism, not on utility. If it doesn't make a fun and enjoyable game, then it doesn't work. If it does, then it works great.

But I don't even think you have to look at it as being unrealistic. If I understand you, your gripe is that because a Dodge Scoot is so much slower that a Westwind, it makes no sense that they'd keep up with each other just because the Westwind rolled well.

While I like over-the-top games, part of fun is suspension-of-disbelief. A realism violation can cause just as much unfun as a utility problem.

And it's not just that the Scoot could keep up with the Westwind; it's that it'd be a relative Long Range to the chasers, regardless of their speed. Similarly, a rigger's skill at handling a mini-blimp might mean the Scoot can outrun much faster opposition.

It doesn't sound that hard to me. First of all, you couldn't be Short from one party and not be Short from all other parties at the same range. You couldn't be in range to jump onto a truck, but also be at Long range from another group that's also jumping onto the same truck.

It depends on how you handle the opposed test. If you're handling it as "scaled by how well you do", then that very situation can happen. If you handle it as "Best roll wins", then you run into a different set of issues.