Grenade Scatter Discussion, split from Commonly Overlooked Rules thread Options

[Muspellsheimr]

Grenade scatter is fucked up. The following happened ~1 month ago:

Player A holds action to close door after Player B fires grenade.
Player B fires grenade from launcher at enemies on other side of the door (3m distance) - rolls 2 (I think) Net Hits.
Scatter places the grenade behind Player A.

Yes, that was vetoed.



As for the original question, I would say the Indirect Fire rules in Arsenal are fairly obscure.


Edit: Forgot to mention - Player A was up stairs, firing down.

Edit: This post was moved from another thread, & was written as a response, not an OP.

[Kerrang]

Have to agree with knockdown, I forgot about it often at first, until players kept reminding me about it when their turn came up. Don't forget it much any more, and the players get knocked down more than they like these days (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oddly enough, the first couple of combats I ran in 4th ed, I was so unfamiliar with the new rules that I entirely forgot to soak damage using Body rolls, even though that was one of the few aspects of combat that had not changed. I just got caught up in how to deal with armor in SR4.

Grenade scatter is fucked up. The following happened ~1 month ago:

Player A holds action to close door after Player B fires grenade.
Player B fires grenade from launcher at enemies on other side of the door (3m distance) - rolls 2 (I think) Net Hits.
Scatter places the grenade behind Player A.

Yes, that was vetoed...

Edit: Forgot to mention - Player A was up stairs, firing down.

I have to disagree with this, why veto the result? The character was using the wrong weapon for the situation, and should have had to deal with it. When you are only 3m away from your target, you DO NOT use a grenade launcher, just toss the li'l fragger at them.

At the top of the stairs, you say? Easy enough to describe how the grenade ended up behind the firing person, interior stairways have sloping ceilings, or even better in this case, other sets of jagged stairs above them:

Player A does not properly control the recoil of the weapon, which kicks up, and sends the grenade flying at great speed into the ceiling or set of stairs above, and bounces back behind Player A.

[Bobfly]

... Are you serious? 2 net hits in most situations is a pretty decent outcome. Hell, it's halfway to a critical success. And this outcome is gonna occur a significant part of the time, even if the person holding the gun is a world-class grenade launcher dude. What you're describing is a goddamn critical glitch. No, scatter working out this way is retarded. And if you try to defend it, there's something very wrong with you too.
I will agree that firing grenades at a distance of 3m is a bit of an unhealthy practice though. Unless he was firing through a doorway or something so the blast wouldn't touch him.

[hobgoblin]

And if you try to defend it, there's something very wrong with you too.

may i ask that personal attacks are left at the login screen? thanks...

[Kerrang]

Not kidding, the player with the grenade launcher should have realized that the average scatter distance for his weapon was twice the distance to his target, and thought better of it. Tactical mistake on his part, but if I were the GM (not knocking this GM at all, BTW), I would likely have had the character make a logic roll before even firing the weapon, and informed him of the possibility of just this kind of thing happening.

The scenario I described was just off the top of my head, and I agree, it suits a critical glitch more. There were still ways to handle it without discarding the result entirely. Take the distance the grenade scattered, and determine how far the stairway extends. Once the grenade scatters back to the foot of the stairs, it hits them and either spins in place, or scatters in a new direction from there. Either way, Player A is probably safe, but Player B is in trouble.

The rule is not the problem, nearly all game systems use a similar scatter method, the problem is a failure of imagination. If you like, you can always make a house rule, whereby the scatter is reduced by the number of hits + the players skill with a grenade launcher, make grenade launchers only have a forward scatter arc unless they strike an obstacle during scatter (like the intended target (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ), or something similar to avoid the situation entirely.

[eidolon]

may i ask that personal attacks are left at the login screen? thanks...

Seconded. Thanks.

[Malachi]

If you like, you can always make a house rule, whereby the scatter is reduced by the number of hits + the players skill with a grenade launcher, make grenade launchers only have a forward scatter arc unless they strike an obstacle during scatter (like the intended target (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ), or something similar to avoid the situation entirely.

Hits on the attack test already reduce grenade scatter.

[Kerrang]

Hits on the attack test already reduce grenade scatter.

Right, but the players skill does not, adding that in would be the house rule part.

[eidolon]

I would point out though that although I agree that you could imagine up a reason for that to happen the way the scatter rules dictate, there's no mandate that you must. It's just as legit, depending on the feel and style of the game, to ignore them for a more "movie awesome" game, or to just ignore them because you don't like them.

Also, regarding the given possible example, recoil wouldn't affect the first shot. With an underbarrel grenade launcher, the grenade is out of the barrel when you suffer the effects of recoil. Same as is modeled with the first shot of any other weapon, but it's also true in practice/RL. If you aimed right, the grenade pretty much goes where it's supposed to.

Personally, I don't apply the scatter rules to launched grenades for one reason: launched grenades are detonated by impact (after the safety distance), so when exactly is the thing going to bounce around? It's even in the book that they detonate on impact, which makes talking about scattering launched grenades ridiculous in the first place. I don't know why the rules even have such silliness in them. I've never understood that. So I ignore scatter rules for launched rounds, because if you got net hits to hit what you were aiming at, you hit it and the grenade goes boom.

[Kerrang]

I would point out though that although I agree that you could imagine up a reason for that to happen the way the scatter rules dictate, there's no mandate that you must. It's just as legit, depending on the feel and style of the game, to ignore them for a more "movie awesome" game, or to just ignore them because you don't like them.

Sure, if that is the kind of game you are running, go ahead and ignore it, I was just asking why it was done, and giving my reasons why I felt the rule was not as bad as some people here were espousing. If a rule is not something for which a house rule has already been established, I tend to go with the result, provide a reasoning for it, and look at adjusting it with a house rule for future games.

Also, regarding the given possible example, recoil wouldn't affect the first shot. With an underbarrel grenade launcher, the grenade is out of the barrel when you suffer the effects of recoil. Same as is modeled with the first shot of any other weapon, but it's also true in practice/RL. If you aimed right, the grenade pretty much goes where it's supposed to.

As far as game mechanics are concerned, you are, of course, correct, recoil does not factor in until after the first shot. Now, in RL, that may not necessarily be the case, I have fired enough rifles, shotguns and pistols to know that recoil can be a factor on the first shot, depending on the weapon and ammo. I have never fired a grenade launcher, but I would imagine that the they have one hell of a kick, and the munition is likely subsonic, so there is a very real possibility that the recoil will get to you before the grenade leaves the barrel.

Personally, I don't apply the scatter rules to launched grenades for one reason: launched grenades are detonated by impact (after the safety distance), so when exactly is the thing going to bounce around? It's even in the book that they detonate on impact, which makes talking about scattering launched grenades ridiculous in the first place. I don't know why the rules even have such silliness in them. I've never understood that. So I ignore scatter rules for launched rounds, because if you got net hits to hit what you were aiming at, you hit it and the grenade goes boom.

Nope, that is not in the book. What is in the book is that grenades fired from grenade launchers do not arm until they have traveled 5 meters, so the grenade from this example should have definitely bounced around before exploding. There is also the Airburst Link firearm mod that lets you reduce the scatter of a launched grenade by having it explode in the air. Seems to me that launched grenades do not detonate on impact, and rather use another mechanism.

Edit: Grammar

[Muspellsheimr]

I have to disagree with this, why veto the result? The character was using the wrong weapon for the situation, and should have had to deal with it. When you are only 3m away from your target, you DO NOT use a grenade launcher, just toss the li'l fragger at them.

At the top of the stairs, you say? Easy enough to describe how the grenade ended up behind the firing person, interior stairways have sloping ceilings, or even better in this case, other sets of jagged stairs above them:

Player A does not properly control the recoil of the weapon, which kicks up, and sends the grenade flying at great speed into the ceiling or set of stairs above, and bounces back behind Player A.

If he had glitched, maybe. 2 Net Hits means he hit his target - & then the grenade somehow is supposed to bounce back through the door & up 2~3 meters of stairs? No - it's fucking retarded, & was ruled against because of such.

Nope, that is not in the book. What is in the book is that grenades fired from grenade launchers do not arm until they have traveled 5 meters, so the grenade from this example should have definitely bounced around before exploding.

This can be, & usually is, disabled by players.

[Muspellsheimr]

Personally, I don't apply the scatter rules to launched grenades for one reason: launched grenades are detonated by impact (after the safety distance), so when exactly is the thing going to bounce around?

Any grenade can be set to detonate on impact, & it is not a default for those fired from a grenade launcher.

[Kerrang]

If he had glitched, maybe. 2 Net Hits means he hit his target - & then the grenade somehow is supposed to bounce back through the door & up 2~3 meters of stairs? No - it's fucking retarded, & was ruled against because of such.

This has been subsequently discussed, and yes, what I described is more indicative of a critical glitch. More to the point, however, it is not the fault of the rules, as not every situation can covered. This is where the GM comes in, and you handled it the way you felt best, that is your prerogative as GM. There are other ways to handle it though, and one way to do that would be a house rule that applies when grenades are launched down stairs (something the rule book does not cover).

This can be, & usually is, disabled by players.

Of course it can be disabled, using the Armorer skill, but usually? Not in my experience, YMMV.

[Draco18s]

Not kidding, the player with the grenade launcher should have realized that the average scatter distance for his weapon was twice the distance to his target, and thought better of it.

By obeying the scatter rules for grenades and other projectiles I can "drop the grenade at my feet" and have it bounce ten meters in a random direction. Or I could do an underhanded toss to a guy 3 feet away (ever done that with waterballoons? Goal to be the last pair with their 'bloon intact, every toss everyone takes a step back?) and end up chucking it 11 meters behind him "on accident," or god forbid, having it end up behind me.

All of these scenarios are ridiculous.

[Kerrang]

By obeying the scatter rules for grenades and other projectiles I can "drop the grenade at my feet" and have it bounce ten meters in a random direction. Or I could do an underhanded toss to a guy 3 feet away (ever done that with waterballoons? Goal to be the last pair with their 'bloon intact, every toss everyone takes a step back?) and end up chucking it 11 meters behind him "on accident," or god forbid, having it end up behind me.

All of these scenarios are ridiculous.

If you fire a grenade launcher at your feet, you are damn straight it will bounce a good distance. If you drop a live grenade in combat, there is probably a reason for it, and that reason could easily cause scatter (i.e., the grenade was shot out of your hand).

Tossing a grenade underhanded to your buddy is not necessarily a combat situation, and I see no reason to apply scatter to it. Same goes with intentionally dropping a grenade at your own feet, it wasn't thrown into combat, so why apply scatter.

Nothing ridiculous need occur when you realize that the rule is intended to cover typical combat situations, and does not have to apply in every case where a grenade is handled. That is why there is a GM, after all.

[Draco18s]

If you fire a grenade launcher at your feet, you are damn straight it will bounce a good distance.

At what point did I say "fire from a grenade launcher"?

Still, even in combat I'm pretty sure even a fool could throw a grenade in front of him and avoid tossing it behind him. Unless he's also a butter fingers (but that's a glitch/critical glitch isn't it?)

[Mordinvan]

Not kidding, the player with the grenade launcher should have realized that the average scatter distance for his weapon was twice the distance to his target, and thought better of it. Tactical mistake on his part, but if I were the GM (not knocking this GM at all, BTW), I would likely have had the character make a logic roll before even firing the weapon, and informed him of the possibility of just this kind of thing happening.

The scenario I described was just off the top of my head, and I agree, it suits a critical glitch more. There were still ways to handle it without discarding the result entirely. Take the distance the grenade scattered, and determine how far the stairway extends. Once the grenade scatters back to the foot of the stairs, it hits them and either spins in place, or scatters in a new direction from there. Either way, Player A is probably safe, but Player B is in trouble.

The rule is not the problem, nearly all game systems use a similar scatter method, the problem is a failure of imagination. If you like, you can always make a house rule, whereby the scatter is reduced by the number of hits + the players skill with a grenade launcher, make grenade launchers only have a forward scatter arc unless they strike an obstacle during scatter (like the intended target (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ), or something similar to avoid the situation entirely.

I just have a disagree, the grenade would have to violate too many laws of physics for this to occur, and vetoing the result makes perfect sense.

[Mordinvan]

Nope, that is not in the book. What is in the book is that grenades fired from grenade launchers do not arm until they have traveled 5 meters, so the grenade from this example should have definitely bounced around before exploding. There is also the Airburst Link firearm mod that lets you reduce the scatter of a launched grenade by having it explode in the air. Seems to me that launched grenades do not detonate on impact, and rather use another mechanism.

Edit: Grammar

Unless to disarms the safety, or rig the safety to allow for wireless to smart linked disarming, which I almost always do.

[eidolon]

@Kerrang

I have fired one model of grenade launcher, the M203. The recoil isn't that bad at all (it's subsonic, yes, but it's a far cry from slow enough that you'd ever really notice the time between triggerpull and the round exiting the barrel; it's a bit like firing a fairly nice shotgun, maybe even less recoil, it's been a while), and anyone that knows how to fire one properly (in other words, you've fired it, you know how to sight it in, you know how to aim it) is automatically accounting for that. You don't learn how to fire the weapon and then never hit what you're aiming at because there's a little recoil. You learn to fire the weapon so that you hit what you're aiming at.

@Muspellsheimr, Kerrang

As to grenades not being impact detonated, I'm not sure where you're looking. SR4A pg. 324, Grenades:

Minigrenades are specifically designed for use with grenade launchers.
They are set to arm when they have traveled 5 meters from their point
of origin and explode on impact (unless using an airburst link, see
p. 322). This safety feature can be disabled with an Armorer + Logic
(3, 5 Minutes) Extended Test. Minigrenades have the same Cost and
effects as standard grenades.

Emphasis mine. And that's not new to SR4A. In previous printings, it's under the Grenades section on page 313.

@Kerrang

I agree that if you shot that example grenade into the bottom of a staircase three feet away from you it would bounce off (unless the safety feature had been disabled), but as you've realized, that's hardly a "success" situation that would result from two net hits.

The rules are ridiculous in a launched grenade scenario for the reason I've pointed out. That doesn't mean you can't use them, I'm just saying that they don't make any sense in the case of a well placed shot (net hits on the Heavy Weapons roll) that is beyond arming distance with a grenade that (by default) detonates on impact. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Kerrang]

I will try not to drag the scatter discussion on much longer, maybe a mod can split it out if it gets too distracting for the thread.

As to grenades not being impact detonated, I'm not sure where you're looking. SR4A pg. 324, Grenades:
Emphasis mine. And that's not new to SR4A. In previous printings, it's under the Grenades section on page 313.

I was looking in the combat section for Grenades, pg. 155 SR4A, which curiously has almost the exact same wording without noting that the grenades detonate on impact.

On the other hand, I don't see how this is an issue with SR4. As far as I can remember, every version of SR has had nearly identical scatter rules, and I would challenge you to find a gaming system that does not have a similar grenade scatter system (extending to launched grenades).

[eidolon]

Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of systems out there that don't, and I know lots do. I made the same ruling when I played SR3 as I do in SR4, and I'd make the same ruling in any other system with grenade launchers. You're right that it's hardly a "problem with SR4," it's a problem of lots of games. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'll look at how splitting works in a minute, and peel these posts out if I can without messing too much stuff up. It's been a while since I had to move posts around. Sorry for contributing to the partial derail, but hey, topic drift happens. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mäx]

I agree that scatter rules for grenades are stupid, but the scatter for rockets is just pants on the head retarded.
Or what do you say about the next scenario:

So i deside to take out the enemies, in a room at the end of a 10 meter hallway, with a LAW and i get amazing 12 nethits but becouse of a bad luck with a scatter roll the rocket explodes in my feet.

Are you guys defending the scatter rules really saying that that's an resonable outcome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[eidolon]

Heh, I didn't include it before, but the same thing applies there.

Rockets and missiles are set to arm when they have traveled 20 meters from their point of origin and explode on impact.

No bounce, no scatter.

In fact, I think I'm going to send this up the pipe and see what I can see. Maybe I'll mention Ramming while I'm at it.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Impact can mean a lot of things. Is it just head on impact, do glances off of the side count, and just because it explodes on impact doesn't mean its instantaneous, the missile or grenade is moving fast the explosion sequence may start on impact but not happen until it bounces 5 meters or whatever.

While I don't have much of a problem with the grenade down the stairs scenario since I've seen some crazy ricochets in my life the scatter distance on some of the weapons is just dumb. 4d6 -1 per net hit for rockets. Heck is airburst even an advantage for grenades 2d6-1 per net hit vs 3d6 -2 per net hit. Airburst average scatter 7, so you would need 7 successes to cancel it, standard grenade launcher ave scatter 11 so you would need 6 successes to cancel it.

I think a basic rule should have been for every d6 of scatter you get -1 per net hit, so while fast moving projectiles have more variability in scatter skill will cancel scatter at roughly the same rate.

[eidolon]

With the 40mm grenades at least, pretty much any nose impact = boom. Here's a quick overview of why: http://science.howstuffworks.com/grenade3.htm

As mentioned there, some are now out there with more sophisticated systems, but come on. You are trying to shoot something with a grenade. Would you deliberately use something that didn't go off when it hit a target? No. You would make damn certain that what you were using was going to go off as and where intended, because you're trying to blow it up.

Missiles and the like IRL are more sophisticated, but the intent is the same. "Blow up what you're shooting at."