Grenade Scatter Discussion, split from Commonly Overlooked Rules thread Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I have no idea how a 40mm works, but the FA fuzes I'm familiar with requires that the round be spinning like mad to deactivate the part of the fuze's safety that prevents it from functioning near the gun.

Once the gyroscopic fuze spins enough (equal to its approximate arming distance) it deactivates the safety... after that, well, it is impact fuzed and mercury of fulminate is a mite twitchy...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And that's why the scatter rules are pant on the head retarded.
4 nethits is normally considered critical succes but with rockets your round can still end up 20m from you intended target, i would exactly call that a criticall succes.
On avarage you need 14 nethits to actually hit what you targeted with rockets, thats 3,5 times the needed successis for critical succes. Can you honestly say that that's resonable and the rules are good.

Ureka, I have a solution supported by RAW... All Rockets can be modified with an Airburst Link, which would reduce their scatter to that of Airburst categories... 1d6, -1/Net Hit... BBB p.310 and BBB p.145

Problem Solved...

[Stahlseele]

Easier Way to fix it in my eyes:
If you roll (enough [net]) hits, you HIT the damn thing . .
If you DON'T hit? yeah, THEN you can roll Scatter . .
You did not hit what you were aiming for, now see what's being hit without you aiming at it . .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Easier Way to fix it in my eyes:
If you roll (enough [net]) hits, you HIT the damn thing . .
If you DON'T hit? yeah, THEN you can roll Scatter . .
You did not hit what you were aiming for, now see what's being hit without you aiming at it . .

At that though, how do you determine whether you hit anything... that is what the scatter rules are supposed to mimic...

Now, having fired both Grenade Launchers and Rocket/Missile launchers, I have seen some really crazy results (mostly due to human error, but the occassional malfunction of the munition itself)... however, using the idea of a Airburst Link, you would then remove the uncertainty of hit/miss... This is a good result in my opinion... if grenades and rockets are using this rule, then they will NEVER be off course more than 5 meters (Scatter of 6, Net hit of 1) with an average scatter of 2 meters... this seems to fit the "reality" of these munitions types without breaking anything...

Yes, Impact fuzed munitions go off on impact, but where do they impact, that is the question... How would you determine actual impact using your methood? Are 2 net hits enough? or 3? how about 10? Where do you set the threshold? Scatter works to solve this problem, and the Airburst Link limits that scatter to almost nothing...

[Stahlseele]

Basically, have them work like usual pistols or what have you, unless you are trying for indirect fire or something.
if the other guy gets more successes in his dodge than you had in your hit, you miss. Roll where the grenade goes where you do not want it to go.
if you hit? you hit, your main target gets to resist the fixed grenade damage, no more damage from extra successes, only harder to dodge.
everything in close proximity gets to deal with the blast radius and the resulting damage. yes, that means you, if you mistook your pistol sized grenade launcher for your heavy pistol and actually fired it while in close quarters combat O.o

[blindfox]

dont know how well this will factor into the discussion, but my experience with rocket launchers has been that, while devestating against armored vehicles, are often highly inaccurate. as with the M136 AT4 this is due primarily, IMO, to the sighting sytem or as has been stated earlier, human error. LAW's on the other hand, are just drek. yeah they work most of the time but can sometimes shoot so wide that i wont even try to describe their cone of fire in minutes of angle. plus there's a high enough chance that they'll be duds that i wont even use em anymore. ive seen LAWs, on more than one occasion, completing their arc, missing the target and bouncing along the ground end over end until it comes to rest. then EOD gets involved. yeesh, what a nightmare.
now i dont know exactly how you'd interpret that in the rules. im not even a third as well aquainted with the systems as you guys are so i wont even try to add anything there.

one thing i'd like to bring to the attention of those characters using rocket launchers though:
check your backblast area! that shit hurts (dude caught my pants leg on fire once)

[Stahlseele]

Something i just thought off as another Problem.
The rules don't make any difference, whethere or not you are trying to hit a pixy, a dwarf, a human, an elf, an orc, a troll, a citymaster or an aircraft carrier . . if you botch your scatter roll after having successfully hit the target in the shoot VS dodge test, you miss all of them by the exact same margin . . well, at least this is what i am getting from thinking about this. but then again, i might be wrong, as my books are at home and i am not all that familiar with the SR4 Rule-set . .

[Falconer]

Tymeaus. You need to go to the SR4 page and download the SR4a changes PDF.
Airburst is no longer that usefull. It's now 2d6, -1 per hit flat for everything.


Stahl: if I understand your comment, your issue is that they have a unique way of handling... you'd rather just see a threshhold test.

I disagree... grenades and rockets are unique in that they have a blast radius and a well defined mechanic for close hits. I rather like having a system to model that 'normal' hit for a grenade is a close hit, not a direct hit. Viva la differance.

Really your basic frag grenade is 12P, -1p per meter off... so if it lands 3m away it's still 9P AP+5 base damage!
HE's are a bit less forgiving, but -2AP helps them a lot compared to frags.

I really suspect some people have the wrong mechanic in mind, the objective isn't to reduce the scatter to 0 all the time, but to reduce it enough for the round to be effective. The rounds which have the biggest problem with this are the anti-vehicular rounds, as they have close to no blast radius.

The only other thing I can think of there is to reflect the size of the target... EG: the side of the delivery van is a wall of metal about 3m high, and 4m long. So if you only scatter a little, you still hit the vehicle, just not the point of the vehicle you aimed at.

In fact, the only round the game really lacks is an anti-armor grenade for GL's IMO. Or some kind of a demolitions type 'limpet' mine type weapon. None of which is too hard to houserule and make yourself w/ someone w/ a reasonable level of skill in armorer/demolitions.


Edit: anyone else notice this little tidbit....
"If targeting a location, treat this as a Success Test
instead. Apply standard ranged attack dice pool modifiers."

Does anyone else find the concept of making the test opposed rather silly a lot of the time. If I'm using a grenade I'm not targetting a single person. So who 'opposes' the roll. I'd much rather just target a location, this square, then have other people roll reaction to see if they're able to get some cover/armor between themselves and the blast point and treat their successes as virtual distance from the blast.

EG: 3 guys on the far side of a warehouse 1-3m from the backwall... it makes a lot more sense to fire at the back wall (unopposed), not quite right... then have them roll reaction to see how far away they're able to scatter away from the blast point.

[Mäx]

I really suspect some people have the wrong mechanic in mind, the objective isn't to reduce the scatter to 0 all the time, but to reduce it enough for the round to be effective.

Yes and as i said, with rockets you need on avarage over 10 nethits for that.

[kzt]

Ureka, I have a solution supported by RAW... All Rockets can be modified with an Airburst Link, which would reduce their scatter to that of Airburst categories... 1d6, -1/Net Hit... BBB p.310 and BBB p.145

Except for those weapons that require a direct hit, like anti-vehicle rockets.

[Draco18s]

Does anyone else find the concept of making the test opposed rather silly a lot of the time. If I'm using a grenade I'm not targetting a single person. So who 'opposes' the roll. I'd much rather just target a location, this square, then have other people roll reaction to see if they're able to get some cover/armor between themselves and the blast point and treat their successes as virtual distance from the blast.

EG: 3 guys on the far side of a warehouse 1-3m from the backwall... it makes a lot more sense to fire at the back wall (unopposed), not quite right... then have them roll reaction to see how far away they're able to scatter away from the blast point.

As of SR4A you're not allowed to do that provided that there is 1 living target in the intended blast radius. I think I argued this once before. In my games if I'm going to be using grenades my character is going to start having a serious dislike to furniture.

"I target the chair with a grenade. I don't like that chair."

"You can't do that!"

"I can."

"No you can't there are people in there!"

"So? I don't care what happens (or doesn't) to them, I want to blow up that chair."

[Stahlseele]

woot? O.o
can you quote me that bit?
i just can't believe that if there's people inside a car, inside the blast radius, i can't target the car but have to target one of the meatbags inside? x.x

[Draco18s]

woot? O.o
can you quote me that bit?

It was quoted to me, I don't have the book. And I don't really feel like searching the forum for it.

[Stahlseele]

lazy bum <.< . . yeah, i know, i am one to talk ^^

[eidolon]

@Stahlseele, I looked, and I can't find anything that would support that idea. Here's the bit about choosing a target:

To determine the grenade's final location, first choose the intended
target. Make a standard ranged attack test using the attacker's Agility + appropriate combat skill (Throwing Weapons or Heavy Weapons), opposed by the target. If targeting a location, treat this as a Success Test instead. Apply standard ranged attack dice pool modifiers.

Nothing at all about not being able to attack a location, but rather the exact opposite. Unless there's a bit somewhere else that contradicts it, but I'm not finding anything in any of the launch weapons stuff.

edit to add:@Draco18s, I'd ignore whoever quoted it to you, it sounds like a misinterpretation. I'll dig around a bit more though. /edit

That said, this has been a great thread. I feel like I have a much better understanding of what was intended with the scatter rules now, for sure. I still think there's some potential for some umwha? situations, but much less so than when we started. I think most of the issue is poor terminology and description, but even so, it has gotten clearer after multiple readings. This isn't new for Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'm still not sure that all of it works well, by any means, but I'm much less inclined to ignore them outright now. I'd have to use them more to develop a final opinion on each weapon, etc., and I don't have any decent characters statted up with Heavy Weapons. I guess I could dig up some from DS and the books maybe, but hey, that's work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Thank you.
As for that being work?
Just say somewhere, that these Rules are Broken/awesomebroken.
SOMEONE will show you the error of your ways while providing examples in miniscule detail i am sure *snickers* ^^

[eidolon]

SOMEONE will show you the error of your ways while providing examples in miniscule detail i am sure *snickers* ^^

You know, I figured someone would have already done so in this thread.

No offense to anyone that's posting "but that would take X hits etc", but unless one of us ponies up and does a few actual examples using actual rolls, we're pissing into the wind. And as I said, I'm too lazy right now. I'm not even running Shadowrun right now (GASP), but Savage Worlds. All this detailed crunch is making my brainmeats sore. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stahlseele]

yes, i am a bit surprised too, that this has not happened in this thread as of yet ^^
but since i don't know my way around the SR4 rules all that much, i won't change it either ^^

[Draco18s]

edit to add:@Draco18s, I'd ignore whoever quoted it to you, it sounds like a misinterpretation. I'll dig around a bit more though. /edit

Might have been Tyger Eyes or one of the other devs. They said that when lobbing grenades there must be a primary target (unless your intent is to damage structure / room is empty).

[Stahlseele]

which would make certain tactics completely fubar:
Open door, roll grenade through, shut door, wait for grenade to say hello, look into room to see if there is something left alive in there . .

[blindfox]

in that case, you might as well attach those rules for throwing any object.
wanna try to toss a rock on the other side of the alley to distract that ganger? think again.
wanna throw a brick through that storefront window and gran yerself some good loot? not a chance.
play catch with the old man? okay sure, but if he's too busy with the babysitter you might as well toss that ball back in yer toy box, oh wait, you can't do that either

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Dhaise]

in that case, you might as well attach those rules for throwing any object.
wanna try to toss a rock on the other side of the alley to distract that ganger? think again.
wanna throw a brick through that storefront window and gran yerself some good loot? not a chance.
play catch with the old man? okay sure, but if he's too busy with the babysitter you might as well toss that ball back in yer toy box, oh wait, you can't do that either

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Some of those examples aren't troubled by the 'cant target anything' theory though.

The thrown rock as a distraction isn't, because you're probably not trying to target the ganger (and if you are, there's your 'target for the rock' right there), you're trying to make a noise. A glitch or ciritcal glitch could be humorous though with an accidental impact

Why can't you throw the brick at your target (the window)? As clunky as it sounds as written above, there's nobody inside the window itself,so it would be fair game.

Play catch as some sort of combat test? I guess you could, but wouldn't it be more efficent to just auto success some athletics? Do other GM's make people 'roll' to put away gear during downtime or scene breaks?


I don't want gernade rules that have to accomodate one of my bored players spending 45 minutes describing how his non aerodynamic gernade tossed down a Moustrap™ style system of rain gutters hallways,and ventilation ducts can't possibly miss due to 'the rules', they don't need to be that air tight for me,but I'd like something more nonsensical then the current system of 'you threw that gernade 15meters downstairs towards your target,so it ended up 3m behind you, soak damage please'. Otherwise it just boils down to a hand wave anyways or nobody uses gernades. And where is the fun in nobody using gernades?

[blindfox]

yeah, if im gonna roll dice to see where my player's g-nade went im gonna keep it super fast and super simple.
d6 meter roll, d12 clock direction. if its off a wall or somesuch i'll just go with what sounds about right and make it on the fly. g-nade rules (like shotgun rules) get a little overcomplicated, i think

[eidolon]

Might have been Tyger Eyes or one of the other devs. They said that when lobbing grenades there must be a primary target (unless your intent is to damage structure / room is empty).

I'm going to go with "big misunderstanding" then. For one, it certainly isn't canon. The rules clearly state that you can pick a point in space.

For twofers, it's stupid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Stahlseele]

If only THAT had more of an effect . .