Vision stacking Options

[Veggiesama]

Do different modes of vision (normal, low-light, thermographic, ultrasound, etc.) stack with one another? In other words, can you simultaneously perceive with both low-light and thermographic, or some other combination?

If you have racially-granted low-light or thermo vision, do you "toggle" those modes on and off in the same way that you toggle a linked device (free action)?

[DireRadiant]

The vision modes aren't inherently mutually exclusive. You can build a device which acts that way, but normally using one type doesn't preclude another.

Note there are circumstances with devices that do affect your ability to use your normal vision. e.g. covering your natural thermographic eyes with glasses that run in low light mode means your natural thermographic vision may be limited by the glasses in the way

[blindfox]

you might want to take a look at the thermographic vision thread. it wont answer your main question but it covers some of the aspects you mentioned

[Ancient History]

Do different modes of vision (normal, low-light, thermographic, ultrasound, etc.) stack with one another?

The modifiers stack, as all modifiers do, yes.

In other words, can you simultaneously perceive with both low-light and thermographic, or some other combination?

Absolutely.

If you have racially-granted low-light or thermo vision, do you "toggle" those modes on and off in the same way that you toggle a linked device (free action)?

No. Unless you want to use your natural toggle switches (i.e. eyelids), which is sort of an exclusive on-or-off deal.

[Veggiesama]

Well, the issue for me isn't that the modifiers stack, but if you have 2+ modes activated, do you get to look at the Visibility table and choose the best modifier for you?

For instance, it wouldn't make any sense to have both low-light and thermo activated at the same time, waltz into thermal smoke, and say "I'll use my low-light for this and only take a -2 penalty, not a -6 penalty."

Also does this mean that dwarves and such are "stuck" in thermographic vision and can never perceive in normal vision, unless they use a digital interface (goggles, cybereye, etc.)?

[DireRadiant]

As the GM, you choose which modifiers apply. So you are free to stack them up if you want.

Personally I wouldn't, and would allow the best mod in favor of the player to apply.

It used to be in older editions that metahumans with multiple modes of natural vision used all modes mixed equally with no problems, and that the cybernetic enhanced had to "switch" between modes. This is no longer the case in SR4. So Dwarves etc got to see normally, and thermographically.

[Stahlseele]

Well, the issue for me isn't that the modifiers stack, but if you have 2+ modes activated, do you get to look at the Visibility table and choose the best modifier for you?

For instance, it wouldn't make any sense to have both low-light and thermo activated at the same time, waltz into thermal smoke, and say "I'll use my low-light for this and only take a -2 penalty, not a -6 penalty."

Also does this mean that dwarves and such are "stuck" in thermographic vision and can never perceive in normal vision, unless they use a digital interface (goggles, cybereye, etc.)?

With several different vision mods ion your eyes, the lowest possible penalty applies.
and no, dwarves can never switch off their thermographic eyes, but as the thermo is a natural overlay, they percieve at usual optics at the same time.

[TBRMInsanity]

I often wonder if natural low-light/thermo-graphic vision replaces visual spectrum vision for metahumans? Where in the rules does it state that you have both natural and racial vision together?

[Adarael]

Where does it say Orks have arms? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In short, nowhere, but given that metahumans are subsets of 'human', it can be assumed they do not LOSE any functionality that normal people have unless otherwise specified.

[Veggiesama]

Well, we intuitively know what it's like to have arms. We don't intuitively know what it's like to see into non-visible spectrums. So it helps to have rules for such things.

Okay, I found a quote from SR4A on p66:
They [dwarves] have thermographic vision, which allows them to see radiated infrared (heat) energy as well as the normal light spectrum simultaneously.

Visibility impaired (p153):
Environmental conditions such as darkness or smoke occasionally affect combat; how much depends on the type of vision the attacker is using. Consult the Visibility Table for appropriate modifiers. Modifiers apply equally to all types of vision, whether they are natural or cybernetic.

Many of the critters possess both low-light and thermographic visions together (enhanced senses).

And so on.

So... if you buy goggles with low-light, glare compensation, thermo, and ultrasound (avail. 20), do you take a -3 penalty in full darkness, 0 in partial light, 0 in low-light, 0 in light fog, -2 in heavy fog, and -2 in thermal smoke?

[Stahlseele]

sounds about right.

[HappyDaze]

Normally, you take the most advantageous modifier if you have numerous vision types (such as a troll with normal and thermographic vision). The odd one is thermal smoke. Here if you don't use the higher penalty, there's really no point in thermal smoke.

[Veggiesama]

I can't see a situation where thermal smoke would actually come up, if there's a choice involved. If you have normal & thermo, you'd always choose normal's -4 over thermo's -6.

But if we made a special case out of thermal smoke, then why can't we make a special case out of the others?

Ex. I am using thermographic and ultrasound in a glare. My ultrasound "sight" is then impeded, because AR windows are obscured, my eyes are watering, I feel an urge to sneeze, whatever.

[Lilt]

Normally, you take the most advantageous modifier if you have numerous vision types (such as a troll with normal and thermographic vision). The odd one is thermal smoke. Here if you don't use the higher penalty, there's really no point in thermal smoke.

Actually, there is a situation where the -6 might be used. Logically, it's possible to be in both thermal smoke and other adverse conditions simultaneously. For example, a normal human standing in light fog in total darkness shouldn't have visibility penalties from -6 to -2 simply because of the fog. Thus, a dwarf standing in an area of total darkness and thermal smoke should probably suffer a -6 visibility modifier.

[TBRMInsanity]

Okay, I found a quote from SR4A on p66:
They [dwarves] have thermographic vision, which allows them to see radiated infrared (heat) energy as well as the normal light spectrum simultaneously.

That clears up Thermographic vision but not low-light. I can see low-light being an exclusive natural sense (as it just allows you to absorb more light then a normal eye). I would love to be proved wrong though.

[Caadium]

Normally, you take the most advantageous modifier if you have numerous vision types (such as a troll with normal and thermographic vision). The odd one is thermal smoke. Here if you don't use the higher penalty, there's really no point in thermal smoke.

Remember, not everyone is a Shadowrunner or some other type of military level mercenary. Thermal Smoke makes perfect sense for Law Enforcement types. Cutting power to a room and tossing a Smoke Grenade into a building before attempting to go in after a Dwarf or Troll is just stupid since they can see right through via thermal. However, thermal smoke kills their thermal, and the darkness kills their regular vision. Against most un-modified trolls and dwarfs thermal smoke is a great neutralizer. This is something to remember when your kidnap target is a wage-slave type.

[Draco18s]

That clears up Thermographic vision but not low-light. I can see low-light being an exclusive natural sense (as it just allows you to absorb more light then a normal eye). I would love to be proved wrong though.

Lets just call it "Ultravision" and be done with it.

*Blatant rip-off of Alpha Omega, "Ultravision" is low light, thermo, and normal, in whatever combination is most beneficial to the player at the time.

[KCKitsune]

Hey quick question: If you have a mage with level 2 cybereyes and have to make the choice between Thermo, Low-light, and Vision Mag, which two would you take? The other 4 capacity slots are taken by Vision Enhancement 3 and Flare Comp.

[Draco18s]

Thermo and Vision Magnification. In low-light situations use thermo. Vision Mag is almost a "must have."

[Caadium]

Me personally, I'd do Low-Light with the Eye Light system, and then get contacts or glasses for the others (including smartlink).

[Dakka Dakka]

I'd not say that Image Magnification is a must have. You can always use optical binoculars. Thermo, low-light and flare compensation is essential, since you can't buy Radar or Ultrasound for cybereyes. Flare compensation however can be external just as well.

Another silly question: Do Image Enhancements stack with each other? Can you put one into your Cybereyes, your Contact Lenses and your Glasses? I also think this is silly, but is there an actual rule that prevents this?

[Lilt]

Hey quick question: If you have a mage with level 2 cybereyes and have to make the choice between Thermo, Low-light, and Vision Mag, which two would you take? The other 4 capacity slots are taken by Vision Enhancement 3 and Flare Comp.

Bear in mind that mages are usually able to astrally perceive, which generally allows you to see in total darkness just fine. Astrally perceiving and shooting a gun in total darkness has a modifier of -2, which is just the distraction penalty for doing something physical whilst perceiving, and is notably a lower mod than thermo or ultrasound. The -2 doesn't even count if you're slinging a spell or similar. In previous editions, perception was also able to see through fog and smoke pretty well, but I've seen no mention of that in the 4e rules so YMMV.

In any case, if you want one of thermo or low light, I'd suggest low-light. One of thermo's big advantages is the ability to see in total darkness, and if you can do that better than someone with thermo. Discounting full darkness, low light is generally equal to or better than thermo. The only case where thermo is better light smoke/fog, so it really depends on how much of that your GM throws at you.

[Dakka Dakka]

The mere -2 are countered by all the drawbacks of being dual natured. So not always a good option.

[Inane Imp]

Another silly question: Do Image Enhancements stack with each other? Can you put one into your Cybereyes, your Contact Lenses and your Glasses? I also think this is silly, but is there an actual rule that prevents this?

Why is this silly?

The magical optical/electronic rule provides a clue. Optical enhancements let the full spectrum of light through. So a sniper looking through an optical imaging scope (with Vision Mag only ) can use his Low-light vision because the low ambient light is let through. If however he was using an electronic imaging scope (with Vision Mag only) then he wouldn't because the image the scope produces only includes the 'normal' visual spectrum: it filters out ambient light and the thermal spectrum.

By thinking about electronic vision in terms of filters instead of enhancements this is made easier. Normal vision filters out the most - a lot of the ambient light and the thermal spectrum. Low-light vision filters out less, processing low-levels of ambient light. Thermographic vision also filters out less, processing the IR spectrum. A combination of all three produces an image which includes very low levels of ambient light, 'normal' vision and the IR spectrum. Equally flare compensation filters out any light above a certain peak reading.

Electronic vision magnification produces an extremely high resolution image which allows you to zoom very far away, consequently this is only really effective if its on the outermost layer of electronic enhancements otherwise your just trying to zoom in on a very high resolution picture of a low resolution picture.

How you treat Vision Enhancements will effect how you rule on those. If you simply see them as 'better vision' (everything is sharper, more colourful, brighter) then you'd have to apply the lowest Vision Enhancement stat alone. Which if they don't have Cybereyes is always their unaugmented vision of 0. Clearly this is illogical, so it follows that Vision Enhancements are not 'better vision' but enhanced vision.
Things like AR cues highlighting motion, algorithms that clean up the electronic picture (reducing noise, the distorting effects of tears etc) the outline of objects (that hidden sniper is surrounded by a glowing green outline in your vision), or if its DNI linked associated it with your thoughts (Think 'Where are my keys?' and the Vision Enhancement highlights them for you in your vision), provides basic range-finder and measuring functions based on stereopsis (which means you can use it to determine speed), measures temperature based on the wavelength of IR, provide azimuth, inclination and declination information (which, if coupled with a decent Almanac and the time means you can determine position, of if position is know you can work out the exact time). Wow, I might have gone a little overboard there: my point was, different rating enhancements provide different advantages that aren't simply 'better vision' so it doesn't really matter at what point they come in the process you should always be able to apply the maximum rating. But, because a Vision Enhancement 3 can do exactly what a Vision Enhancement 2 does and more, they should not stack.

Imp

Fake Edit: Actually, thats a mean way to screw with somebody you don't like for kicks. Change the defaults of their cyber-eyes so that they think their closer together or wider apart than they actually are; it would screw with so many of their functions (in certain circumstances they'd be feeding you completely incorrect information and it'd be difficult to pick up on).

[DireRadiant]

Another silly question: Do Image Enhancements stack with each other? Can you put one into your Cybereyes, your Contact Lenses and your Glasses? I also think this is silly, but is there an actual rule that prevents this?

The rules would be very complicated.

Let's look at an example.

Ultrasound cybereyes <--> Low Light Contacts <--> Vision Enhancement Goggles.

1. Can you actually wear all this. Important criteria. Yes we can!
2. Would ultrasound eyes work? Probably not. Or they would, but you see your contacts! Not very useful.
3. Would low light work? Very likely.
4. Would Vision Enhancement work. Certainly for normal vision. Would they work for low light, probably. They won't work for ultrasound.

Now go through all the combinations and mix and match.

Then write down all the rules.

Have fun while I go play some SR4.