Automatic Weapons, Graceful Degradation Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Lilt]

It's irked me for a while that narrow bursts and full auto shots are all or nothing things, surely there must be some way to hit with just a few bullets?

This idea came to me just now. How about, if a character misses, they're allowed to roll the dice they sacrificed for recoil and see if that allowed them to hit. If it did, they treat it as a single bullet hitting and can stage it up with any net successes they score. If not, the whole burst missed.

This doesn't help Sam McSamurai, however, as only dice sacrificed to recoil can be re-rolled. If someone has recoil mods that completely negate recoil, then missing simply meant they were aiming in the wrong direction. It's also not usable with wide bursts, although statistically the chances are the same (+5 dice for attacker instead of -5 for defender) yet this mod can be used against stationary targets).

The real effect of this is to make automatic weapons more versatile for people with less recoil compensation. Is that a lofty goal, or is it something that should be discouraged?

[Uli]

Since your idea would complicate already lengthy combats, I am discouraging it. Also, recoil compensation is not very costly - when Sammy McSamurai can come up with this idea, then henchmen can do, too.

[crazyconscript]

If you just want to make sure that you hit, thats what a wide burst is supposed to represent. You are firing a spread of bullets to ensure that the opponent cant actually dodge them.

[Nkari]

A wide bursts extra - dice to the defender simulates just that, a narrow bursts extra dmg simulates that the shooter takes aim with the burst. 1 hit means just 1 bullet hit, 2 hits means more than 1 bullet hit, for a total of +4 dmg (+3 for narrow, +1 for extra net hit) so I dont see the problem here if you get no net hits, then you missed the guy with your "aimed" shit..

If you miss with the wide burst.. well.. you missed.. if you only got 1 net hit then you only hit with 1 bullet.. if you get 2+ net hits, you hit with more bullets..

So whats your problem ?

[crazyconscript]

actually, the bullet per net hit idea doesnt hold up as a narrow burst if it hits involves all the bullets hitting (hence the extra damage), while a wide could be anything from 1 to number of bullets fired. Plus the number of shots is only 3 for short, 6 for long and 10 for full bursts.

[Writer]

Remember, the rules are abstracted. There is no direct connection between the number of hits and the number bullets actually hitting. Three bullets tearing at the skin can do the same damage as one bullet going through meat. A narrow burst is more likely to cause more damage if the aim is true. A wide burst makes it harder for the target to avoid the shots. The mechanics support the concept. Don't worry so much about the details. I usually don't describe the action until after the dice are rolled. Sure, we would all like to make a head shot, but unless the roll bears out massive trauma, we probably didn't get what we wanted.

[Lilt]

As for how cheap recoil compensation is: Sure. I don't intend this rule to be for Sammy McSamurai. It's for Gavin McGanger, who wants to pump out a lot of lead without a SOTA gas-vent system on his SMG, but to still stand a good chance of hitting. This rule is also (and is indeed intended) for use with NPCs.

The problem is that uber recoil compensation has become the norm, rather than the exception, because the rules punnish uncompensated recoil so much.

As for wide bursts, I'm fully aware of their existence. The rules for using them are, however, poorly designed. They give no real advantage to a character that's using no recoil compensation, as you have a -2 penalty to hit and they have a -2 penalty to dodge. Net gain: 0, or -3 if they try and do a second wide burst in the same phase.

If someone is firing an automatic weapon, and the first bullet is aimed in the right direction, then a hit should be scored. Fully automatic weapons were developed because they gave an advantage to the attacker, and recoil compensation was developed afterwords to make them more effective. Ergo, firing a weapon in an automatic mode should give some form of advantage rather than a net loss or an all-or-nothing damage boost.

actually, the bullet per net hit idea doesnt hold up as a narrow burst if it hits involves all the bullets hitting (hence the extra damage), while a wide could be anything from 1 to number of bullets fired. Plus the number of shots is only 3 for short, 6 for long and 10 for full bursts.

That's essentially what I'm going for. Given that a net hit on attacking means all bullets hit, surely there is a middle ground between all hitting and all missing? If you've sacrificed 9 dice to fire 10 bullets, then perhaps you could say each die represents a bullet. If, on such an attack, you *just* miss, you could perhaps consider each die to be a bullet, and so if all 9 dice score hits then you've hit with 9 bullets. If the defender had net hits, they'd cancel bullet hits normally.

As for adding extra time to combats, it doesn't need to add much. Particularly if the group has differently colored dice that could be rolled at the same time.

[eidolon]

If someone is firing an automatic weapon, and the first bullet is aimed in the right direction, then a hit should be scored.

That's just the point, though. If you don't get any net hits, then the first bullet wasn't "aimed in the right direction", you just missed. (Discounting a hit that doesn't manage to cause damage, which the rules also already cover.)

The roll to fire the weapon (shoot somebody) isn't post-aim-and-triggerpull, it's the whole action of firing the weapon.

Edit: skimfail, that's exactly what you don't like about it currently. Disregard.

[Draco18s]

As for wide bursts, I'm fully aware of their existence. The rules for using them are, however, poorly designed. They give no real advantage to a character that's using no recoil compensation, as you have a -2 penalty to hit and they have a -2 penalty to dodge. Net gain: 0, or -3 if they try and do a second wide burst in the same phase.

1) Pick up a shoulder strap. 10 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , +1 RC.
2) -2 for -2 is actually a slight advantage. 8 dice vs. 6 wins slightly less often than 6 vs. 4*
2b) Subtract enough dice so that the dodger has no dice and the attacker "auto-wins."**
3) Multiple shooters on the same target, target dies, regardless of you DP penalty on each shooter. Every time the target dodges his next dodge is at a cumulative -1. It's the "filling the air with bullets" rule.

*3 dice vs. 1 die is about 48% compared to 2 vs. 0 at 55%
**Obviously 1 die vs. 0 wins only 33% of the time, but 2 vs. 0 is about 55%

[blindfox]

my brain is kinda scattered at the moment but let me see if can coherently contribute to the discussion.
being that recoil compensation is not the real issue here i wont beleaguer the point of it save to say that wide bursts from an M240B, M249 or M2 machine gun are far more accurate as the spread of bullets (the cone of fire or beaten zone) is more controlled, typically in the way of a pintle mount or a tripod with traverse and elevation assembly.
to the point of hits using wide or narrow bursts i will use two examples: the M4 assault rifle and M249 squad automatic weapon (essentially a light machine gun for game purposes) as used in MOUT or urban combat.

used in semi auto the M4 is a stable platform, even while moving, provided the shooter has sufficient training. this is true generally in the case of Sammy (who has all the wiz gear to keep his rifle steady) but more difficult for Gavin. When you switch to burst or full auto that tiny little 5.56 round kicks like all hell and muzzle control is a bitch. that first round hit is likely but the second round will likely be outside of the "bowling pin" and the third maybe (and often) not even on target. this is one of the reasons why the us military eliminated full auto in its assault rifles after the vietnam conflict. since the street sam isnt really the issue here im focusing on the unaugmented npc's. firing full auto in an assault rifle is no easy task whether it be a short or wide burst. (aside: i cant speak for much smg's but the 9mm MP5 handles beautifully under full auto, suppressed or otherwise. this is, i think due mostly in part to HK's rolling block, however) i prefer to use single shots or controlled pairs (since, legally we're not allowed to call it "double tap" anymore) and the insurance round. that is to say, two to the chest, one to the head. when a target is diving for cover though (especially within 15 meters) burst fire or full auto are indeed a better way to guarantee at least one success. your average NPC may not have the training required to score net hits versus an experienced runner (depending on the kinds of goons you have on their tail)

now to the M249 SAW. as a 'light machine gun' it was never intended for accuracy and is an area weapon. when fired in MOUT there are very few options for recoil compensation and it can be very hard to control. to mitigate this we try to stick to a 6- 9 round burst and even that can be a bitch. your first couple rounds are generally going to be on target but as you lose sight picture you're going to suffer a huge degredation of accuracy out to 15 meters. one way that is taught to combat this effect is to set the weapon firmly into your stance and simply keep it in place by sheer muscle. the weapon is extremely deadly within 7 meters though. no sighting is even required at that point and you'll be able to score many net hits even hip-fired, grasping the bipod legs for support (a method of recoil compensation, i know). if your NPC lets loose with a short burst he is likely to inflict great damage. MG's can be a lot trickier to correct malfunction though (and it can happen more often than you might think).

that being said, if Gavin is firing an assault rifle at me i'm likely to move laterally while attempting to engage my target, but then i get kinda aggressive in MOUT. however if he is using a light machine gun, i'll be looking for cover. with as many rounds inside the beaten zone as a LMG can accomplish he doesnt even need to aim.
i know i didnt really provide any answers, i just hope that maybe i can jumpstart someone's brainmeats to finding that answer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wizard]

When firing a burst, recoil should not effect the first bullet, only later bullets. To simulate this ignore recoil for the first burst fired in an Action Phase. For the second burst apply the recoil from the first and the second bursts.

In other words on the first short burst the recoil penalty would be 0, while on the second short burst it would be -5 assuming there is no compensation.

Short followed by short = 0, -5
Long followed by short = 0, -8
Short followed by long = 0, -8
Full = 0 (no second burst as it needs a complex action)

Recoil compensation only kicks in to help on the second burst for that Action Phase.

This makes full burst deadly, but then again maybe they should be, you are firing 10 bullets at a single target. Another downside is that you will run out of ammunition quickly.

[blindfox]

but a good plan when not in a target-rich environment

[Wizard]

On second thoughts maybe ignoring uncompensated recoil for the first burst is too drastic. Maybe instead ignore upto -3 of uncompensated recoil only for the first burst for the Action Phase. That will make it:

Short followed by short = 0, -5
Long followed by short = -2, -8
Short followed by long = 0, -8
Full = -6 (no second burst as it needs a complex action)

[Writer]

I have no problem with RAW covering automatic gunfire. Burst fire is deadly as it is, and if you don't obsess over the realism, it works well within the game system. A professional gun slinger in the shadows can reasonably have Agility 5 + Automatics 5 + 2 Smartgun link. A dice pool of 12 dice. It is easy enough to come up with a custom weapon with 5 points of RC, resulting in a -4 penalty. With 5P damage for most submachine guns, +9DV for a full burst, you wold normally have 8 dice for a 14DV attack. All you need is one net hit and the target is probably not going to shoot back anymore, even if they do survive. I'm not sure how this is nerfed in any way. Keep in mind, my stat numbers are fairly conservative for a shadowrunner who knows how to use firearms. A starting elf with implants can easily get to a 14 dice total after recoil. I'm not even pushing the max here.

[Draco18s]

All you need is one net hit and the target is probably not going to shoot back anymore, even if they do survive. I'm not sure how this is nerfed in any way. Keep in mind, my stat numbers are fairly conservative for a shadowrunner who knows how to use firearms. A starting elf with implants can easily get to a 14 dice total after recoil. I'm not even pushing the max here.

One net hit and the target only needs 6 armor to have it all converted to stun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fix-it]

I thought this was gonna be a thread about weapons maintenance, and wear-and-tear.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I thought this was gonna be a thread about weapons maintenance, and wear-and-tear.

Surprise...

[Lilt]

I have no problem with RAW covering automatic gunfire. Burst fire is deadly as it is, and if you don't obsess over the realism, it works well within the game system. A professional gun slinger in the shadows can reasonably have Agility 5 + Automatics 5 + 2 Smartgun link. A dice pool of 12 dice. It is easy enough to come up with a custom weapon with 5 points of RC, resulting in a -4 penalty. With 5P damage for most submachine guns, +9DV for a full burst, you wold normally have 8 dice for a 14DV attack. All you need is one net hit and the target is probably not going to shoot back anymore, even if they do survive. I'm not sure how this is nerfed in any way. Keep in mind, my stat numbers are fairly conservative for a shadowrunner who knows how to use firearms. A starting elf with implants can easily get to a 14 dice total after recoil. I'm not even pushing the max here.

Well this rule has no effect for the Sammy who's maxxed his recoil compensation, and the elf with a pool of 14 is very rarely going to need to use it. These are the characters who the rules as they stand are designed for, the characters who are going to hit anyway. For them, it's just a question of how many hits they get to stage-up the damage.

The characters who these rules help are NPCs and PCs who might not have firearms as their main focus. An average human with a professional level training in automatic weapons (by the table on P108, military grunt level) has a pool of 6 from Agility 3+Automatics 3. By the rules as they stand, if they fired a full auto shot from a weapon with 1 point of recoil compensation (as most of the stock SMGs have) then they'd have absolutely no chance of hitting with any bullets, even when using a wide burst. Sure, they'd probably be using a smartlink, and could be using more recoil compensation, but a smartlink and recoil compensation shouldn't be necessary to hit with a gun, especially when you're throwing that much lead at the target. This is a flaw in the rules, and calling an attempt to correct it 'obsessing over realism' is just defending poor games design. It's the sort of game design that saw less combat oriented characters sitting around during 2nd edition combat to discover that the sam had killed everyone by the time it got to their go. Everyone should have fun in combat, not just the combat-dedicated characters.

@Wizard: I don't really like that system because it gives even more of an advantage to the people who are already gonna hit, making it even more advantageous for them to use full auto. What I want to remove is the dichotomy between more damage and accuracy, not to simply make automatic weapons fire more accurate.

@blindfox: Interesting points. One or two bullets hitting is exactly what I'm wanting to simulate with this rule.

@Draco18s: True, -2 vs -2 does give a slight advantage if the attacker's pool is larger than the defender's. Throw in cover, movement, and visibility, however, and that's not necessarily the case. You get into a situation where the attacker is more likely to hit with a single bullet than a wide burst, which is exactly what I want to avoid.

[Writer]

The characters who these rules help are NPCs and PCs who might not have firearms as their main focus. An average human with a professional level training in automatic weapons (by the table on P108, military grunt level) has a pool of 6 from Agility 3+Automatics 3. By the rules as they stand, if they fired a full auto shot from a weapon with 1 point of recoil compensation (as most of the stock SMGs have) then they'd have absolutely no chance of hitting with any bullets, even when using a wide burst. Sure, they'd probably be using a smartlink, and could be using more recoil compensation, but a smartlink and recoil compensation shouldn't be necessary to hit with a gun, especially when you're throwing that much lead at the target.

Ah, I see your point. It isn't the damage you have issue with, it is losing the accuracy on the first bullet, which should be the same as firing one bullet. I have an idea, which I haven't thought completely through, but it might help the process. Tie the DV bonus to the attacker's weapon skill. A trained character will know how to get the most out of automatic fire, while a rookie will just waste ammunition. The, continue to stack recoil penalties until the character takes a free or simple action to aim, clearing the penalties as they get the firearm back on target. This may seem excessive, considering an average thug will have 1 IP and 3 seconds are a long time.

This is a flaw in the rules, and calling an attempt to correct it 'obsessing over realism' is just defending poor games design. It's the sort of game design that saw less combat oriented characters sitting around during 2nd edition combat to discover that the sam had killed everyone by the time it got to their go. Everyone should have fun in combat, not just the combat-dedicated characters.

I think the comparison is a bit off. The original initiative system was probably more accurate, allowing faster characters to move more times. A character who can do three times as much as a regular character will probably do so before the regular character. However, I also see your point here, as well. It isn't about realism, it is about giving regular characters a chance to get involved. Make their shots count, and keep them in the action before the specialists take away all the opportunities.

[Writer]

One net hit and the target only needs 6 armor to have it all converted to stun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In a fire fight, I always thought the object was to stop someone shooting back. What difference does it make if I stun them out of commission or I kill them? If you really want to kill them, shoot them again. They won't be dodging. If your goal is to kill them, don't do it on their terms. That is what explosives or sniper rifles are for.

[Draco18s]

In a fire fight, I always thought the object was to stop someone shooting back.

Very true, they'll be out cold. But they'll survive.

[Lilt]

Very true, they'll be out cold. But they'll survive.

IIRC, you're generally better-off using stun damage, particularly against trolls and orks. See, physical damage tracks increase with body, but stun damage tracks increase with willpower. Most grunts will have longer physical tracks than body tracks, and some would consider the +5 AP on flechette rounds to be a bonus as it increases the chance of an attack being converted to stun.

This is even true when when fighting mages as, even though they're likely to lave longer stun tracks, they're also likely to accrue some stun damage during the fight from drain.

Also, why would any mage want to use mannabolt/ball over stun bolt/ball? Mannabolt does damage to a longer track, so it's harder to take an opponent down, and it has a higher drain code to boot.

[Adarael]

Quite seriously, I don't think enough PLAYERS know how effective suppression fire can be. Especially in most of the places runners engage in combat: halls, corridors, alleys, etc.

[crazyconscript]

hehe....oh how i love thee suppression fire and held actions. My runners have learned not to move out of cover unless they are ABSOLUTELY SURE that there are no enemies still there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[blindfox]

i and my players understand it, only too well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) which is why we avoid it at all costs, preferring the single, well-aimed shot.