 Rifled Shotgun Slugs |
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 Jan 16 2004, 04:39 AM
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#1
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King of the Hobos  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127  |
As I understand it, for smoothbore shotguns you can use ammunition where instead of the barrel being rifled, it's actually on the bullet. How good/effective are these types of thing?
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Jan 16 2004, 05:18 AM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Don't know that much about shotgun slugs...
I'll guess that a rifled slug will produce 6 inch groups at around 40-50 meters and 12 inch groups at around 80 meters. A rifled barrel will more or less double those distances. The slug itself will probably retain lethal force in the 400-800 meter range, depending on the shape of the slug, the rifling of the barrel (or net) and some other stuff. |
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Jan 16 2004, 05:20 AM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I seem to remember a thread where the answer was "not very". One of the involved will be along shortly to expand.
~J |
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Jan 16 2004, 05:25 AM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
From what I remeber reading some adverts in gun magazines, the very best slug guns can produce 3-4 inch groups at 100 meters. But this as using a rifled barrel and so on. Don't expect too much accuracy out of the,.
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Jan 16 2004, 05:28 AM
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#5
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Right. The entire point of this is that the rifling is on the slug rather than the barrel, allowing the gun to fire both slugs and shot without spreading the shot too far or making the slugs inaccurate. I remember someone saying that the second goal wasn't achieved very well at all.
~J |
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Jan 16 2004, 09:40 AM
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#6
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Well, rifled slugs tend to be very, very effective in terms of terminal ballistics. You're dealing with a very large projectile that's moving at a respectable velocity. That's 2200 fpe+ from your average 12 gauge slug, which is very close to the same amount of energy developed by the 7.62x51mm NATO round. Only it's from a projectile that's more than twice the diameter and it tends to expand even more on contact (meaning that the slug can transfer a lot more of that energy into the target and disrupt a lot more tissue due to the greater surface area, compared to the 7.62x51mm). Here's a wound profile from a 12 gauge rifled slug. That's a slug that's .692 caliber, expanding to 1.1 inches and penetrating to 14 inches. In other words, that's a 1.1" hole all the way through the average human thorax/abdomen. Very messy. The odds of a person surviving a solid hit aren't very good at all if they don't get immediate, professional medical attention. The down side is that a projectile that's big and flat like that doesn't have very good aerodynamic properties, nor are they very good when it comes to body armor. Rifled slugs tend to drop like meteors. Even when sighted in at 50 meters, the average rifled slug will drop about 5 inches at 100 meters. That's pretty bad compared to a rifle. As far as accuracy goes, they're accurate enough within 50 meters or so. 4" is on the outside at that range these days, with 2.5-3" being more common. Beyond that, though, you're unlikely to hit close enough to where you want. You're looking at about a 12" group at 150 meters. With rifled slug barrels and sabot slugs, you're looking at about 4" at 100 meters on average. Better accuracy. The latest craze in the slug ammo biz is to put large caliber, heavy handgun bullets into sabotted shotgun loads (Winchester's Supreme Partition Gold, 385 grain JHP), which means even higher velocity (@1900 fps), more energy (@3000+ fpe), and effective range out to 150-200 meters. Much better accuracy. Still, compared to a good rifle, accuracy from any slug gun is not going to be great. Good enough in close, complete shite beyond a couple hundred meters. The real downside is recoil. I've shot some 12 gauge 3" slugs from a Remington 870 and walked away beaten up enough to not want to do it again for a while (close to 40 fpe of recoil; about twice an average .30-06). I guess the plus side to that is if you hurt, what ever you hit is pretty much fucked. |
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Jan 16 2004, 10:01 AM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
The felt recoil difference between a pump gun like the 870 and a gas operated one like the 1100 is a world. Firing an uncles bolt action 12 guage (having come from the 1100) staggered me the first time, I'd forgotten how much recoil the fixed action shotguns have compared to the gas-operated ones.
[edit] Another thing worth mentioning is that both buckshot and slugs and delivery severe blunt trauma though soft body armor, even if they don't actually penetrate the armor. A shotgun stopped by your vest can still lead to bad things like heartbeat irregularities, massive internal bleeds, organ ruptures, and other unpleseant stuff. Also, if you are shooting at thing you don't intend to eat, you might as well make the slug frangible for truly ridiculous wound cavities. [/edit] |
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Jan 16 2004, 01:53 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Yep. That effect is well captured in the SR damage/armor system. The rules do not actually say, "If a bullet does serious damage to you, you have a hole in your body of X centimeters diameter." Rather, wound levels are broad descriptions - a serious wound from a bullet against an unarmored opponent might be a hole in the thigh, while a serious wound against an armored opponent might be a bad hemotoma and splintered thigh bone. IMG, I tend to figure light and moderate wounds against armored locations are non-penetrating injuries. Sure, vests prevent (pistol) bullet penetration easily, but those bullets HURT, and cracked ribs and bad bruising are not unknown even when RL armor vests stop bullets. For a beefy, low penetration attack like a shotgun slug, even serious wounds might be non-penetrating. The street doc might have to pick rib fragments out of a lung, but the slug stayed on the vest. |
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Jan 16 2004, 02:10 PM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
And it stays that way, even if you change the armor system so that there is indication of whether the projectile penetrated or not. |
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Jan 16 2004, 02:31 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Is there, however, a difference between a rifled slug and a normal slug when fired from a non-rifled shotgun? Are most slugs rifled? Are shotgun bores often rifled?
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Jan 16 2004, 05:11 PM
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#11
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I don't believe that shotguns are ever rifled. That would make them a rifle. (Encyclopedia.com agrees with me; a shotgun is a smoothbore firearm designed for short range firing...) You would never fire a rifled slug from a rifle firearm. Unless they were custom made for each other, they would probably do mean things to the threading and result in unreliable spin. So the difference between a rifled and unrifled slug on an unrifled shotgun is just as Raygun said (substantial). I can say from my own experiences, I've never even seen a rifled shotgun slug, and it wouldn't make much sense. If you want to spin the bullet, just buy a rifle which is made to do it, instead of a shotgun which isn't.
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Jan 16 2004, 05:17 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642 |
Oh yeah?
Slugger™ High Velocity Rifled Shotgun Slugs Hastings® 12 GA. PARADOX® RIFLED SHOTGUN BARRELS Taste my Google-fu! :) |
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Jan 16 2004, 05:40 PM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
nezumi, there are rifled shotguns. They are usually referred to as slug guns, however. They can fire the same stuff as any shotgun of the same caliber, though firing shot through a rifled barrel will shred it rather quickly. You can, in fact, only really fire smoothbore slugs through it, though you get more accuracy out of it than with any other comparable shotgun solution.
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Jan 16 2004, 06:03 PM
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#14
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I didn't say I didn't believe in rifled slugs, I just hadn't seen any : P (hence, answering Lilt's question, are most slugs rifled.) I fail to understand why anyone would want to rifle a shotgun (or why it's not technically a 'rifle' at that point). A shotgun is made to fire at close targets, rifling defeats the purpose. Am I missing something? Is it just for people who'd like to be able to be a good shotgunner and a poor rifleman, but don't like buying two types of ammunition? |
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Jan 16 2004, 06:14 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Well, I admit an interest in both the ideal of a ~.75 caliber bullet and the word "shotgun," which is kewl. A conventional rifle firing a 70ish caliber slug would probably amputate my shoulder with the recoil, while the lower velocity shotgun slugs would merely knock me on my bantamweight ass. And "rifle" doesn't sound as kewl as "shotgun." But people who actually hunt and use rifles and shotguns and stuff might have more logical reasons than I. |
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Jan 16 2004, 06:21 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 18-August 03 Member No.: 5,513 |
I think that typically shotguns are cheaper than rifles. I may be wrong but that would make sense to me. |
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Jan 16 2004, 06:57 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 142 Joined: 2-December 03 Member No.: 5,871 |
so in game mechanics you would treat it as shortend barrel, -10% or -20% range, amp up the recoil -1 or -2, and damage?
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Jan 16 2004, 08:09 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Ha! No offense but I shoot those one handed. I've been using the 3.5" 12 ga mags for various things since they were developed. If you think the 3" kicks I don't reccomend shooting the 3.5" for any reason. |
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Jan 16 2004, 08:12 PM
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#19
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
No, ingame mechanics, you'd treat all current slugs as rifled and run a slug gun on SMG ranges. Makes a lot more sense.
And yes, shotguns are typically cheaper. They are also more versatile for non combat situations, and they are easier to maintain and operate. Rifling a shotgun is rare, but is specifically for situations where a shotgun firing slugs would be ideal and accuracy potentially necessary useful. A lot of hunters actually use dedicated slug guns, or so I've come to understand. There are other uses, of course, but I'm sure there are more knowledgable people when it comes to this than me. |
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Jan 16 2004, 08:37 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
THere are too many loose posts in here to try and address any of them specifically so I will try to give you a real life perspective on the subject from a life long hunter, gun trader, shooter, and biologist. I'm not an expert, I've just been around.
Slug guns ARE devestating, I think they were developed in response to the shotguns lack of usefulness (shot rounds) at any targets beyond ~60 yards. That wound profile that was posted says it all. If you believe that ballistic gelatin is the same as real flesh. The rifled slugs are still fairly new and I think the jury is still out in terms of accuracy data etc. It does not matter what kind of slug you have (rifles, sabot etc.) it does not make up for the fact that your using a smoothbarrel (or rifled barrel). To even use a slug in a smooth bore you are supposed to use a special choke tube that is extra large and is rifled. Slug guns WITH rifled barrels can be decently accurate to 150 yards +. A reasonable guess would be 3 shots in a 12"-16" group. Not really that bad when you think about it. Slug guns WITHOUT rifled barrels (smooth bores) are no where near as accurate and your probably looking at rapid gyroscopic destabilization out past 50 yards. I've seen alot of evidence that suggests "tumbling" of the projectile at longer ranges. That means instead of flying like a tight spiral from Brett Farve, it is destabilzed so much that the slug looks like a punt going end over end. So in other words there is no physical way to make a smooth bore shoot slugs accurately. I personally have killed turkeys at ~55-60 yards using a smooth bore barrel and regular shot rounds. So I'm not sure where a slug fits into the tactical picture if you can make buckshot rounds accurate at the same ranges. Accuracy is a relative term which can only be measured without the human factor in any way involved. For field accuracy, it also depends on what kind of sights your using. If your trying to hit someone at 100 yards with a slug gun, hopefully your not just using the bead on the end of the barrel, cause the bead would cover the guy up at that range. :wobble: Telescopic sights etc can greatly increase the range of any shotgun, shooting slugs or shot rounds. |
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Jan 16 2004, 08:47 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
We don't use slugs around here very often. But I think one of the main reasons behind the use of slugs is 1. Tactical plastiscity: err...some flexibility in tactical situations where the cop only has a shotgun and can't risk showering an area with buckshot. 2. Safety: A shotgun slug simply does not travel as far as a high powered rifle round. Rifle rounds can travel up to 3 miles. So in highly populated areas where hunting occurs, like back East, slugs are much more desirable, and most shots in hunting situations are from less than 100 yards anyway. |
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Jan 16 2004, 09:06 PM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Emphasis mine. I find it a bit funny that this is addressed at Raygun. :D |
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Jan 16 2004, 09:10 PM
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#23
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
It's been a good day for Talkin' Shit To The Masters, hasn't it? :D
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Jan 16 2004, 09:22 PM
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#24
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
That's true, to a certain extent. The difference in the amount of energy your body has to absorb is negligible (around 5 fpe), but an automatic action tends to spread that energy over a longer period of time, which tends to make a person feel like they're dealing with less recoil when it really is essentially the same. (The difference between recoil and felt recoil.) But when you're dealing with magnum slug loads, it really doesn't matter much. They hurt, no matter what kind of action you put them through. We used a Super X2 as well. In terms of recoil, I would rather use those loads through an automatic. In terms of feeding reliability with heavy loads like that, I'd rather use the pump.
Most body armor will soak buckshot relatively easily, without backface deformation beyond normal. More often than not, it's more like dealing with a bunch of .33" lead balls that deform easily and don't weigh a lot individually than it is dealing with a single large mass like a slug. NIJ IIA is classed to stop 12 gauge 00 buckshot within the backface deformation limit of 1.44 inches. Slugs fall outside of most testing procedures, so they aren't usually covered in protection standards. I don't recall seeing any information on what kind of backface deformation slug loads tend to produce, but it does stand to reason that they would deliver a nasty bit of blunt trauma through most soft body armor.
Technically, it is a rifle. In common vernacular it's a slug gun. The reason they are termed differently is because you use shotgun ammunition in slug guns (gauges), rather than a conventional brass-cased rifle cartridge. Why do people still hunt with blackpowder firearms? Because they like to. In fact, in terms of ballistics, the idea is basically the same. Big heavy bullet, relatively close range. When considering some of the more durable animals in the world (feral pigs, etc...), a big, heavy slug offers a distict advantage over conventional rifle bullets where terminal ballistics are concerned. Rifling the barrel allows you to get that big, heavy slug out further away, more accurately.
Well, CanvasBack is right in that shotguns are generally less expensive than rifles. With many kinds of shotguns, barrels are also interchangeable. You can buy one shotgun and get a rifled slug barrel with it and change it out whenever you want to. In fact, Remington makes a package expressly for that. The idea is that you have a shot barrel for bird hunting, and a slug barrel for big game hunting. One gun does it all. Slug guns aren't the best tools for most hunting situations, but they are tailor-made for a few. Particularly for hunting in brush, i.e. most rural areas in the north eastern United States. |
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Jan 16 2004, 09:37 PM
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#25
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Okay... May I ask why you would do such a thing? I guess without a stock getting jammed into your shoulder it might not actually hurt as much that way, but it can't do much good for accuracy. Never felt the need to try it, honestly. *shrug*
Neither do I, unless you have some masochistic need. Honestly, can you say that there's anything you need a 3.5" magnum for (especially a slug)? Something that a 3" wouldn't accomplish? I can't seem to find any use for them. |
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