Zoroastgrian Mage Killer - OMG!, What would you suggest? Options

[10gauge]

Hey,

I have a player in my group who plays a Zoroastrian Mage (p.43, Street Magic). While he's describing his character as some kind of paladin, fighting against evil powers, he's actually acting like a cold blooded killer.

Some examples:

• He killed two guards in Egypt. Those guys weren't hostile. They were walking toward him, waving hands friendly, weapons down. He didn't even think about a peaceful solution for a second. His decision was a fireball, force 6. Both guards dead.
• He killed a mechanic in Egypt because this guy tried to sell a fucked up car to him. Flamethrower, force 6. Mechanic dead.
• He kidnapped a young woman in Seattle to get some information about a Johnson. The woman managed to escape after she gave him all information he wanted. He instantly fired a flamethrower, force 6. The woman died two seconds later.

Now, in my opinion, a Zoroastrian Mage who fights the ultimate evil, should not kill harmless or innocent people - at least not quite often. It's very bad roleplaying IMO and I'm not satisfied with giving less karma to this player. I need something to punish him. The character already got jailed, so this is no option.

What would you do?

[Ancient History]

Have his superiors send a pair of mage-killer adepts after him with a request that he take on a major task - or they kill him.

[10gauge]

The problem with this player is that he'd simply try to let his character leave the country. That's what he's always doing if consequences have to be faced. He'd simply use his money to flee. This character would then vanish somewhere in Iran. Then the player would present a new character. Slightly different story, same paranoid, psychopatic behaviour.

Even if he wouldn't flee the country... he'd face those mage-killer adepts and try to kill them with an overpowered fireball, force 12 - even if this would mean certain death to himself.

It's difficult for me to handle such kind of players.

[Wasabi]

Give him a mentor spirit of Gator. [Call it crocodile and have it have a different tradition than Zoroastrian]

Not only would a devout Zoroastrian want to get rid of it, they'd be offended by it. If he doesn't get rid if it through penance have him become haunted and introduce him to the rules for sleep deprivation. THEN let him learn of his order's disapproval when an archvillain of the Zoroastrian's Order's mentor spirit is now attached to your runner and put some real thumbscrews on 'im. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wasabi]

Another option is an OOP option: let your karma awards reflect good roleplay and problem solving. Greed for karma will handle the rest.

[Ancient History]

Well, you could have an adept of Ahriman come along and congratulate him on the fine job he's doing. Or you could have his accounts frozen by his superiors until he makes amends.

You can have him receive a vision where a daeva tells him that his character is becoming toxic and unless he mends his ways, he will be lost down the dark path - out of game, warn him that if he continues to violate his tradition in this fashion his character becomes an NPC and he has to start over. That's a bit dickish, but well within normal limits. As a lead-up, you could apply a geas or temporary Magic reduction during critical junctures that reflect a waning magical ability because he's not following the tenets of his tradition.

On a carrot level, you can have an initiatory group offer to allow him to join - with some really posh benefits - provided he can prove himself by his actions. Carrots work better than sticks with some people.

[10gauge]

Thank you for your suggestions so far!

[...]As a lead-up, you could apply a geas or temporary Magic reduction during critical junctures that reflect a waning magical ability because he's not following the tenets of his tradition.

Sounds great.

On a carrot level, you can have an initiatory group offer to allow him to join - with some really posh benefits - provided he can prove himself by his actions. Carrots work better than sticks with some people.

Never. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Give him a mentor spirit of Gator. [Call it crocodile and have it have a different tradition than Zoroastrian]

Not only would a devout Zoroastrian want to get rid of it, they'd be offended by it. If he doesn't get rid if it through penance have him become haunted and introduce him to the rules for sleep deprivation. THEN let him learn of his order's disapproval when an archvillain of the Zoroastrian's Order's mentor spirit is now attached to your runner and put some real thumbscrews on 'im. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I like that.



I think a mixture would be a good idea. A mentor spirit AND a temporary reduction of his Magic.

To be honest, I don't really like punishing players. Especially in this case... the problem with this player is, that he ALWAYS play the same stereotype. Paranoid, psychopatic killers. Again and again. Over and over. Sometimes I think, he's playing himself - or better said - what he would like to be...! It's very frightening.

[The Mack]

To be honest, I don't really like punishing players. Especially in this case... the problem with this player is, that he ALWAYS play the same stereotype. Paranoid, psychopatic killers. Again and again. Over and over. Sometimes I think, he's playing himself - or better said - what he would like to be...! It's very frightening.

Then I don't think the in-game route is the way to go.

I think your best bet is to sit down with the player, and discuss the problem.


If this happens with every character he plays, then it's a deeper problem than just one character - so punishing that character might not actually get the player to understand that there is, in fact, a problem.

A bit of paranoia when playing Shadowrun is normal, playing every character as a '...psychopathic killer' is not.

[Backgammon]

Well... is the player conscious of what he's doing? Or is he just powergaming and likes to play a bully? Just to play devil's advocate, the world, the Shadowrun world in particular, if full of delusionnal people who think of themselves as Good People, fighting for Goodness. But their actions are of the utmost vilest kind. Witness the Inquisition and much of Christianism.

Granted, though, killing poeple you really don't have to, especially just cause you're power tripping, is a bit hard to justify as "breaking eggs to make an omelette". Like I said, if the player really isn't trying to roleplay, you have another problem.

Out of curisosity, have you brought this up with the player? Or are you just hoping that you smaking him without telling him why won't result in a confilct escalation?

[Caadium]

the problem with this player is, that he ALWAYS play the same stereotype. Paranoid, psychopatic killers. Again and again. Over and over. Sometimes I think, he's playing himself - or better said - what he would like to be...! It's very frightening.

Might not be what you want to hear, but my advice is to not play with this player anymore. It sounds as though no matter what you do he's going to act the same way. The way you describe it, no matter the situation he'll make the same character and have the same reactions; this means you'll have the same dillema. Only way around it is to not be involved in the same game.

[10gauge]

I had many conversations with this player. He always has "specific reasons" to justify his actions. Although these reasons are illegitimate (IMO) in almost every case, he does actually really believe the bullshit he's talking. I spent two hours and tried to explain that killing an innocent woman is a very awful crime. His answer was: "Well, this woman worked for a bad guy and even if she didn't know that he was a bad guy, she deserves death just BECAUSE she worked for him". eek.

Might not be what you want to hear, but my advice is to not play with this player anymore. It sounds as though no matter what you do he's going to act the same way. The way you describe it, no matter the situation he'll make the same character and have the same reactions; this means you'll have the same dillema. Only way around it is to not be involved in the same game.

Sounds weird, but this isn't an option (at the moment).

Perhaps I should change to "the dark side" and let him kill as much people as he like. Who knows... After 50 or 100 dead bodies he could be tired of killing...?! Would also mean less work for me. I'd just have to design a room with 20 opponents in it.

[DireRadiant]

Talk to the player and group about it. Peer pressure can work wonders. You might also find out that the other players might actually want to play that way too.

It looks like you've gotten some great suggestion for some in game natural consequences. Keep piling them on.

Another option is the have the PC encounter the exact same kind of response in turn. Probably get killed for looking at someone funny.

But I'd seriously look at not playing with this person if they can't manage to work things out with the Gm and the group.

And then there's always the Orbital Bovine Bombardment.

[10gauge]

And then there's always the Orbital Bovine Bombardment.

Used that twice in the last two years. Also magically pinned genitals into faces...! oO

But I'd seriously look at not playing with this person if they can't manage to work things out with the Gm and the group.

The truth is, that HE actually is the GROUP. It's a one man show at the moment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Metalmek]

home rule ... give your players bad karma points when they do somethings way out of their concepts.
after few bad karma points ... as a GM exchange those well earn bad karma points for a nasty drawback that fits the character.

hung out dry is a nasty one if the character scare the shit out of is contacts


or impose a geasa break .. like UNJUSTIFIED killing, when a mage must atone for something before casting again it's generaly a good way to make him think twice before do it again

and most important give him BAD REP points ... those are nasty if your playing with it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

johnson won't be so willing to give jobs to runners who are killers ... there's one thing between ingaging to battle opposition and free murder... corps will take a few nasty punch when it's being ripped of their favorite new secret reseach toy ... but if the corp don't do something about the murder of her employees... they will all go work somewhere else.

so HUNT DOWN a psychopath... corps love sharing those video footages with law enforcement AND sell it to medias (at lease corps won't loose all ... they get a few bucks and free advertisement from medias) groups to later call extradition right to be judge on there corporates grounds (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

[Demonseed Elite]

Sounds like the player might be unreasonable to deal with. Which is unfortunate, because there's a great Zoroastrian storytelling opportunity here. Zoroastrianism believes that when a person dies, their soul spends three days reliving their sins and virtues. Then they travel to the Chinavet bridge, where--depending on the myth--they are either met by their own conscience or by the three judges of the dead (Mithra, Sraosha and Rashnu) and their soul is weighed on the golden scales and deemed worthy or unworthy. The player could face this on a metaplanar quest (with the three judges standing in for the Dweller on the Threshold) or at a scene where the character is hovering between life and death. If his soul is deemed unworthy (which it clearly would be), he suffers penalties to his magic until he redeems himself.

Unfortunately, that only works with a player who gives a damn. Like the others have suggested, you will probably have to deal with the player directly if they aren't likely to respond to in-character attempts.

[Caadium]

The truth is, that HE actually is the GROUP. It's a one man show at the moment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

This makes things a little difficult. Here's an option that might require a little trickery on your part.

Tell him you have an idea for a 2nd story-arc that is going on at the same time and you need him to make a new character. Very subtly describe some of the atrocities he's committed and hire his new character to hunt down his old character. Get him excited that he's going after this scumbag since he can use whatever means necessary. Right before he catches up with his 1st PC, take a break. Go get food or something. While you're eating, fish for info on which character he prefers. Then try to fish for which character he thinks would win in a fight. Then, using that info, when you get home, rip up the character that lost based on his own narrative.

Just a thought, and as I said it would take some careful, and very subtle, work on your part. Hell, it might be easier to get the which does he like better and which is tougher before you start the adventure. That way even if he figures out that he's hunting his own PC, he doesn't realize that he's already sealed the fate of a PC he's spent time making.

When all is said and done, you can then point out that from this point forward, you'll just have NPCs hunt his characters down like that and not let him take part.

[10gauge]

Good idea, the judgement thing.

I will probably use a bit of everything from all suggestions and a final conversation with the player.

Thanks guys!

This makes things a little difficult. Here's an option that might require a little trickery on your part.

Tell him you have an idea for a 2nd story-arc that is going on at the same time and you need him to make a new character. Very subtly describe some of the atrocities he's committed and hire his new character to hunt down his old character. Get him excited that he's going after this scumbag since he can use whatever means necessary. Right before he catches up with his 1st PC, take a break. Go get food or something. While you're eating, fish for info on which character he prefers. Then try to fish for which character he thinks would win in a fight. Then, using that info, when you get home, rip up the character that lost based on his own narrative.

Just a thought, and as I said it would take some careful, and very subtle, work on your part. Hell, it might be easier to get the which does he like better and which is tougher before you start the adventure. That way even if he figures out that he's hunting his own PC, he doesn't realize that he's already sealed the fate of a PC he's spent time making.

When all is said and done, you can then point out that from this point forward, you'll just have NPCs hunt his characters down like that and not let him take part.

LOL, great! If the final conversation fails, this will be the way to go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Wasabi]

If he is the only player you need to go game elsewhere, man. GM's should ENJOY running the game and while you may like running, it really doesn't sound like a healthy hobby entertaining someone obsessed with violence and moral ambiguity. Don't get me wrong, I've played Azzies and treacherous gov't guys as well as paladins and pacifists all within the SR world, but I always asked the GM what kind of game he wanted to run and it sounds like this guy neither gives two shits nor has any desire for character depth.

We can give advice on how to encourage the character to want to be redeemed but a player beyond redemption needs more than a GM can provide...

[10gauge]

Right.

[Larme]

What would you do?

I'm not convinced that it's a terribly huge problem. Shadowrunners are allowed to be bad people. And many bad people come up with bullshit justifications to explain why doing what they know was the wrong thing was actually right *coughdickcheneycough*

The way to teach this character to behave better is to use the notoriety system. It sounds like he's kind of a boob -- if he's been jailed before, it means he commits his crimes in a random, unplanned way where his identity is not protected. That means that not only can the cops find him, the shadowscene knows who he is. Most Js will refuse to work with him, because he's such a loose cannon. Other Js will use him like a disposable weapon, sending him on suicide missions, because he's not good for anything else. Many Js will probably force him to accept lower compensation, and they can threaten to turn him over to the cops to coerce him. He's also got a huge problem in that his MO is known. He uses fire magic to kill? That means no J or squad of police will go after him without a counterspelling mage as backup. Also, every time a random person is killed by fire magic in broad daylight, he's immediately a suspect.

Anyway, there's no requirement that runners be good guys. There's no requirement that they be sane, either. It's perfectly legitimate to have a psycho character who thinks he's not evil. Have evil organizations recruit him to do evil things. He can go on thinking he's a good guy even as he toasts witnesses who threaten to testify about corporate crime, and sets buildings on fire with everyone inside for the purpose of letting the owner collect insurance money. If he refuses to work for evil people, pull the ol' switcheroo. The J tells him that his target is a dangerous pedophile murderer, and he's supposed to conduct vigilante justice. Then he finds out that she was a lawyer fighting for the rights of orphans against a megacorp. The J tells him that the building he's burning down is empty, and then he finds out it's full of retarded people. In these situations, he has to go back to the J to get paid, armed with the knowledge of what he's done. Will he take the money, or will he burn the J? If it's the former, then he'll have to confront the fact that he's not a good guy after all.

[LamplightSlasher]

Having played in a pretty eclectic number of groups over the years, I've found the fortune to more often than not, be in the GMs seat. Most of the groups I've played in have included at least one player that fits the description of the player you have. A freaky group of Rifts fanatics comes to mind. Occasionally, I've been required to run single man games and these can be the most rewarding storytelling oppurtunities since no one has to wait their turn. To get to my point, I've found that the easiest way to stem powergaming psychos, is to limit the availability of books and alternate character classes, skills, spells, gear, weapons, etc. Even when the players have access to all the books, or have played with me countless times, a new game always starts with ONLY the core book available to the players. As a campaign progresses, access to the new books are great and exciting rewards to go with karma/experience. The more books and their inclusive gadgets that get introduced, the easier it is to unbalance a game. Unbalanced games cater to psycho powergamers and their ridiculous egos. Crazy powerful mages and whacked out weapons freaks are easy to prevent by simply using veto power on such archetypes. That being said, such restrictions may not suit the cut of your jib, and as such I would apply an anti-bully protocol. Any bully, real or roleplayed, only gets off on the attention that comes from acting out. Shutting down kill sprees, senseless destruction, or any other such attempts at gamebreaking, can be achieved by a variety of deus ex machina styled defences.
Psycho Samurai wanna blow the brains out of an important NPC for no reason? Totally outta character? Whats to say that the NPC isn't being protected by unseen bodyguards? Maybe remote deckers who hack into the sams smartgun or cybereyes and prevent the attack.
Maybe that goofy killer mage wants to roast your Johnson (snicker) instead of accepting your obviously planned out offer of a mission? Couldn't the corporate mage astrally protecting the Johnson offer some form of vile spirit or debililtating spellward to... further nudge your player into playing along?
These tactics have worked for me, more than once quietly altering the players behavior and making them much better participants.
And once, although shortlived for other reasons, a powerplayer and I switched places at the table and found success that way too.

[hyzmarca]

Nib Shuggarath Bahim

Nib Shuggarath Bahim

Nib Shuggarath Bahim

Nib Shuggarath Bahim




Watch Wishmaster 2 if you don't understand the reference. For a Zoroastrian mage who needs an excuse to purify himself, the Wishmaster 2 route is definitely the way to go.

Start with a fire opal falling into the PCs laps. This fire opal is the enchanted prison of an extremely powerful djinn, who is accidentally released and who proceeds to wreak havoc. Physical and magical force are all useless against him, victory requires putting him back in the gem. The only problem is that putting him back in the gem requires a magician who is pure of heart. Emphasis on pure. This means that the Zoroastrian mage, in order to win, must go through a great deal of heartfelt ritual atonement.

[TBRMInsanity]

There were rules in SR2 where if you violated your tradition long enough you actually started to lose magic (a sort of f@#$ off from the magical powers that be). Now you can't just cut off his powers without warning him but I would say the next time he is about to fireball some innocent person you should say to him, "a voice in the back of your head is say, do this and you will be punished!" If he continues then give him one point of temporary magic loss. Continue till he gets the point and starts more along the lines of his ethos.

[Veggiesama]

I have no problem with people who can roleplay wild, bat-shit crazy justifications for their actions. The problem is when they take the argument out of game and ACTUALLY argue for philosophically questionable positions.

"I know he gave us room and board for the night, but did you see the way he talked to his henchmen/wife/children? He DESERVED the fireball in his face after he cooked us breakfast, because it was obvious he was a BAD man and was going to KILL us." (borrowed from a recent D&D game)

A double problem is when you don't have other players to argue with the problem player. If it's just one dude calling the shots, then arguments only erupt between the GM and that player. If multiple players are arguing, then at least you get to sit in and hear their fears, worries, and complaints. Mega bonus points if they can keep IC and OOC arguments completely, 100% separate. Sometimes you can even get some good ideas from the arguments!

Fortunately, Shadowrun doesn't have a silly alignment system to worry about (in D&D, we would get into constant arguments about "what is good", especially among dumb religious players who more often than not argued for an "ends can justify the means" system), so without alignments, you are free to institute street morality. By street morality, I mean only this: WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND! Hell, you even have Notoriety scores built straight into the rules, so load him up with penalties.

[10gauge]

I don't have a problem with bad guy characters. I also played hitmen and the like. The problem is, that he chose a tradition that isn't evil at all. If he'd play a corrupted black mage, I'd be happy. But he doesn't.

I thank you for your suggestions and comments and think that I'll be able to get along with this character now. If he wants to be a killing machine, I won't stand in his way. In the end I make runs to please my players in the first place.

Cheers!