I think my Kung Fu is not so good, Looking into the martial arts Options

[Shinobi Killfist]

QFT. All Martial Arts rely on precise control of one's muscles. Ingesting a drug that inhibits that control is counter-productive.

It may be true, but is it AWESOME. And in a game I'm more concerned with AWESOME than I am with what is true in reality.

[Critias]

the adept with the drunk geas makes sense, but it sadens me to have a world with sober drunken boxers.

You mean like our world, that you're in right now?

[Caadium]

Here is something I never groked about SR.

It doenst make sense at all for a martial art style to be an specialization of "Unarmed Combat" skill. Instead it should be THE skill. The "Unarmed Combat" skill shouldnt exist, because it implies an personal combat skill that encompasses all spheres of fighting - standing fighting, ground fighting, grappling, punches, kicks, pins, locks, counters, takedowns, throwings, etc. In real-life, such an skill simply DOESNT EXIST.

A player who wants to make an martial practitioneer should pick "Capoeira" or "Aikijujutsu" or "Street Fight" or "Bites and Nails" or whatever he practiced on as a full SKILL, and specialize according to his style focuses - the Capoeira skill could have "feints", "kicks strikes" or "sweeps" as specialization, while an Aikijujutsu skill could have "standing pins" or "counter-throwings" or "fighting while seated" as specialization, and so on.

If im missing something here, somebodey please tell me, because it is something that existed in all editions of SR, and I never managed to make sense of.

Although I don't have my SR3 books handy, the SR3 version of Arsenal (whose title is escaping me*) had the martial arts rules in there. In SR3, if you used those rules you did it as you said, and one of the Martial Arts was something akin to general fighting. Each martial art was it's own skill. My group doesn't do a lot of the 'buy this art for that bonus, and that art for this bonus' min-maxing; otherwise I'd consider revisiting the SR3 approach to martial arts.

Edit: * = Cannon Companion

[Draco18s]

You mean like our world, that you're in right now?

The real world does make me sad...

[The Jake]

I'm still peeved at the lack of maneouvers relevant for submission fighting, but that's nothing a few homebrew maneouvers won't fix...

- J.

[hyzmarca]

Sounds like a great way to commit suicide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZKXBwVo29I

[AllTheNothing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZKXBwVo29I

Nice girls with feiry breath.... I know it's possible, but the user would be affected by Surtur as well, which is probably detrimental to his/hers health (unless it's a cyborg).
On the other hand get a troll drunk with Hurlg, give him/her a lighter and have him/her blurp on the flame; Shreck docet.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Here is something I never groked about SR.

It doenst make sense at all for a martial art style to be an specialization of "Unarmed Combat" skill. Instead it should be THE skill. The "Unarmed Combat" skill shouldnt exist, because it implies an personal combat skill that encompasses all spheres of fighting - standing fighting, ground fighting, grappling, punches, kicks, pins, locks, counters, takedowns, throwings, etc. In real-life, such an skill simply DOESNT EXIST.

A player who wants to make an martial practitioneer should pick "Capoeira" or "Aikijujutsu" or "Street Fight" or "Bites and Nails" or whatever he practiced on as a full SKILL, and specialize according to his style focuses - the Capoeira skill could have "feints", "kicks strikes" or "sweeps" as specialization, while an Aikijujutsu skill could have "standing pins" or "counter-throwings" or "fighting while seated" as specialization, and so on.

If im missing something here, somebodey please tell me, because it is something that existed in all editions of SR, and I never managed to make sense of.

In real life, just because I've learned Chung Do Kwan for 16 years doesn't mean that I have absolutely no skill when someone tries to grapple with me or if someone tries to box with me. One will be better at using the things they've learned (hence the +2 dice when specifically using that specialization), but one will still be able to take the principals and ideas needed to be formidable in a different scenario even if it isn't just like they practiced.

[silva]

In real life, just because I've learned Chung Do Kwan for 16 years doesn't mean that I have absolutely no skill when someone tries to grapple with me or if someone tries to box with me

You can train a martial art for all your life - if this art dont have "ground fighting" in its curriculum (and assuming you kept your training faithful to its curriculum), chances are if you go to the ground you gonna be chewed up by a practitioner of exclusive ground fighting combat system (as brazilian jujutsu) with exponentially less time of practice than you.

You get good in what you train. You train X, you get good in X. You dont train X, you dont get good at X. Simple like that.

The Unarmed Combat skill assumes youre good at ALL spheres of fighting - its utopical, since no single martial system/art manages to do that. But as some colleagues said before, it may be convenient for a game that dont really wants to capture the nuances of real unarmed fighting.

Although I don't have my SR3 books handy, the SR3 version of Arsenal (Cannon Companion) had the martial arts rules in there. In SR3, if you used those rules you did it as you said, and one of the Martial Arts was something akin to general fighting. Each martial art was it's own skill

Thanks Caadium, Ill have a look at it.

[Red-ROM]

You mean like our world, that you're in right now?

yea, I don't play the "world I'm in right now" RPG. no offense. I just prefer an over the top action hero for shadowrun, not the guy from Karate class down the street.

[Critias]

Right, and you can get the "over the top action hero" thing through the magic and machine that man meets in Shadowrun. That's why they're there.

[Shinobi Killfist]

You can train a martial art for all your life - if this art dont have "ground fighting" in its curriculum (and assuming you kept your training faithful to its curriculum), chances are if you go to the ground you gonna be chewed up by a practitioner of exclusive ground fighting combat system (as brazilian jujutsu) with exponentially less time of practice than you.

You get good in what you train. You train X, you get good in X. You dont train X, you dont get good at X. Simple like that.

The Unarmed Combat skill assumes youre good at ALL spheres of fighting - its utopical, since no single martial system/art manages to do that. But as some colleagues said before, it may be convenient for a game that dont really wants to capture the nuances of real unarmed fighting.

And again that is what the +2 dice represent. A total novice is just as good in ground fighting if specialized as a seasoned professional trained in a non ground fighting style. While the seasoned pro doesn't focus on ground fighting it will be in the training for when you screw up and this happens part of the training. Since the difference between novice and pro is likely years of training there is a good chance the pro has trained in ground fighting just as much or close to as much the the specialized ground fighter.

On a 1-6 scale +2 dice is a whole heck of a lot of skill boost.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Right, and you can get the "over the top action hero" thing through the magic and machine that man meets in Shadowrun. That's why they're there.

You could also have it in your martial arts.

[AllTheNothing]

You could also have it in your martial arts.

I don't think that martial arts should have everything, otherwise once you put them toghether with magic and ware you end up with some true monstruosities.

[Writer]

Basically I'm just going to agree with everything Meatbag said.

And this is why I love online handles.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

I don't think that martial arts should have everything, otherwise once you put them toghether with magic and ware you end up with some true monstruosities.

True. Martial Arts quality bonuses and manuevers teamed up with adept powers makes for a pretty twinked god brawler. I know, I'm playing one. At least they capped the total bonus DV from styles at +3 dice. Not that a MA adept with tons of levels in critical strike can't do it for cheaper build, but hey, that's magic.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

You can train a martial art for all your life - if this art dont have "ground fighting" in its curriculum (and assuming you kept your training faithful to its curriculum), chances are if you go to the ground you gonna be chewed up by a practitioner of exclusive ground fighting combat system (as brazilian jujutsu) with exponentially less time of practice than you.

That's MMA propaganda. If a practitioner is serious and really trains to deal damage, any method is just as good as another. It's the mentality and effort of the student, not the techniques he employs.

See, if I were going to turn this into a stand and fight vs. grappling/groundfigthing flame war, I'd retaliate with something along the lines of "A true experienced fighter wouldn't let the grapple happen because they'd drop their opponent before they were able."

Simple truth. Who ever's more serious about the fight has the odds in their favor, regardless of which styles are involved.

Current Martial Competition favors grappling because of the rules of the sport. Remove restrictions on where one can strike and how and grappling won't be so prevalent anymore.

[AngelisStorm]

The Unarmed Combat skill assumes youre good at ALL spheres of fighting - its utopical, since no single martial system/art manages to do that. But as some colleagues said before, it may be convenient for a game that dont really wants to capture the nuances of real unarmed fighting.

What part of SR4 is not simplified? And yup, you've got the idea there. Shadowrun is not going to design some over the top, "realistic" combat simulation rules. Because then every aspect of the game will need that. And that's not the point of this system.

As people have said previously, yes, two fighters with 3's in unarmed combat are equally good. If you want to specialize in grappling ("I do Brazilian Jujitsu") then take specialization: grappling. Pretty straight forward. I would recommend you to 7th Sea if you want a more detailed skill system.

[silva]

TKDNINJA:

I think yuo didnt get my post. In fact, yours didnt contradicted mine in anyway. Yes, martial efficacy is important, regardless of method. And nowhere I said the contrary. My point really is: nobody knows everything from all spheres. THIS is what im emphasizing. And a generic Unarmed Combat skill assumes a fighter can master all spheres.

But hey, I understood there are goods motives for it being the way it is.

[Critias]

I think the only way for you two to settle this is to take it to the octagon.

[hyzmarca]

I think the only way for you two to settle this is to take it to the octagon.

The Ninja, unholy master of terror. No one will admit they still exist. Only one man can stop him.

[Cain]

And a generic Unarmed Combat skill assumes a fighter can master all spheres.

Actually, no it doesn't. Your character could have studied karate, Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, or any one of a hundred different styles. They don't need to master all techniques in order to have a high Unarmed Combat skill. The skill is just an average of their ability across all areas, not an exact level of proficiency in particular techniques.

For example, let's assume we have a RL boxer. He's a very good boxer, but not so good at the ground game or kicks. This averages him out to an Unarmed Combat skill of, say, 3. We then compare him to the jiujutsu stylist, who doesn't have much in the way of striking power. Because of that, he gets averaged to a 3.

In the first two cases, the fighters have great skill in their chosen areas. But because of the way the rules work, their skills get averaged to a much lower level. It's possible for the boxer, if he was good enough at boxing, to have a higher average skill-- he's mastered boxing to such a degree, his unarmed combat skill instead averages out to a 5. He's still weak against grapples, but his pure striking skill makes up for it.

[AllTheNothing]

True. Martial Arts quality bonuses and manuevers teamed up with adept powers makes for a pretty twinked god brawler. I know, I'm playing one. At least they capped the total bonus DV from styles at +3 dice. Not that a MA adept with tons of levels in critical strike can't do it for cheaper build, but hey, that's magic.

I think that "Critical Strike" power should be capped as well.
"What do you mean with: a punk smashed the tank with a kick?"

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think that "Critical Strike" power should be capped as well.
"What do you mean with: a punk smashed the tank with a kick?"

Please don't forget... that a vehicle's armor is hardened... if the modified value for damage does not exceed the armor rating, the vehicle takes no damage... (Tanks do not take Stun after all)

And Critical Strike is Capped, you cannot have any more levels in the power than your magic rating... LEVELS not Points...

[silva]

I think the only way for you two to settle this is to take it to the octagon.

The Ninja, unholy master of terror. No one will admit they still exist. Only one man can stop him.

I have total confidence in my capoeira and in my father, exu of the crossroads*. (is possession rules permited?)



P.S: I prefer the kind of capoeira that relies on feints, dirty tricks, mocking and even economy of movement (approaching what we call here in Rio de Janeiro by malandragem) than the more popular acrobatic flying athlete. And Exu (a trickster-like spirit) would be the perfect possession for this. Hummm... noting this down for my next char.