[SR4] - Movement Power Options

[Machiavelli]

I remember the description of this power in the last editions was like "moving obstacles out of the way, making travel easier etc", but in the current edition it is only described as "speeding up the movement rate". Is it still done the same way? And what about acting while you run or drive with speeds you usally can´t reach?

On one of our last runs we had a road-trip trough the NAN-territories and because the streets were nearly empty and no cops were around, I took a favour of one of my ghost to use this power (my char. doesn´t like long travels, wanted to reach the hotel earlier etc.). Everything was fine until we had to break. The GM told us the brakes of our care were made to handle the reachable speeds of this vehicle, not 3 or more times higher speeds. So we crashed and nearly died. Sounds plausible to me, but if you see it this way, this power would be more of an attack-form than an aid. Shouldn´t this power also include some "safety belt" that gives you e.g. the reaction to act like you would run or drive with the speed you usually could without this influence?

[Psikerlord]

it's magic... if you want to stop, it stops you. no need for brakes.

[Zormal]

Yes. Braking shouldn't be a problem, as the speed doesn't (seem to) increase in the physical sense. You just magically arrive earlier (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Breaks should work as if you weren't going any faster than normal (with the help of the friendly spirit, of course).

[Lilt]

If the brakes weren't designed to handle it, then you could bet the suspension, tires, and rest of the vehicle weren't designed to. You should have crashed ages ago, if that was how the power worked.

An important thing to consider is that the power also works on humans. Humans can run at 25m/turn without making a roll, but if that is suddenly increased to 75m/turn they're doing way beyond what the human body could take. If the movement rate translated directly into speed, then a good way to avoid capture would thus be to accelerate the people following you and watch their ankles give under the extreme forces. Even if that didn't happen, they'd probably have trouble rounding the first corner.

See, the power doesn't allow anything to exert any more force than it could normally. This is probably a good thing, as otherwise using the movement power on a bullet would mean the bullet carried more kinetic energy and thus hit harder. A good way to look at it is that the movement power warps the space around the object, so that 3 meters of road are condensed into 1. No more kinetic energy is used, so no excess wear and tare is caused to the subject, and no more damage is done if someone crashes.

One thing I've noticed in the anniversary edition is that they've put a cap on the effectiveness of the movement power on high-body subjects. The speed boost is halved on targets with a body above the creature's magic attribute, and doesn't work if it's greater than double the creature's magic attribute. This means no force 2 spirits revolutionizing the travel industry, as most vehicles that can carry people have a body >4.

Okay, so there's the dodge scoot, but if you can afford a spirit then you can probably afford a vehicle twice the speed. Now I want to play an italian mage who goes everywhere at speed of 240m/turn on a spirit-accelerated dodge scoot (that's 178 miles per hour, 288 km per hour). I can hear it now: "cHAOw" (The Doppler effect as a trendy mage says 'Ciao' from a very fast scooter)

(if you don't get it, watch Eddie Izzard)

[paws2sky]

(if you don't get it, watch Eddie Izzard)

Fixed. Just watch Eddie Izzard. You really don't need a reason.

As for the movement power thing, I prefer the older description that talks about facilitating movement, rather than speeding you up. Honestly, it probably ought to be a combination of both...

-paws

[Dragnar]

..., so that 3 meters of road are condensed into 3. ...

Not an awfully high-powered spirit you're using there, buddy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I agree with that explanation of the power, though. It changes nothing else apart from the speed. It never has you needing to make reaction roll not to run into a wall, it doesn't destroy the stuff you accelerate and it doesn't have to comply to the laws of physics.

[pbangarth]

Some observations:

1) If the Movement power were about 'facilitating movement' or 'warping space' rather than speeding the object of the spell, then the modifications in SR4A would make no sense, as they are related to the mass of the object. Altering the environment as you suggest, rather than the object, would not be affected by the mass of the object.

2) Altering the environment would facilitate movement for all others in the environment, eg. the car beside you, the bird flying overhead, the pedestrian madly trying to dodge out of the way of a car approaching at the equivalent of 400 km/h. If the 'environment' is defined narrowly to be that space occupied by the object of the spell, in order to avoid encompassing others nearby, then we return to the dangers and effects noted by the OP.

3) Warping space or otherwise altering the environment would be an effect that requires far more mojo than speeding up a car or a person.

4) It is quite possible to desing an implant that is too strong/fast for the person into whom it is placed, and have that implant rip itself out when exerted beyond the 'specifications' of the person. Magic can be overdone as well.

The Movement power of a spirit derives from its own ability to manipulate mana and move itself around in space, whether physical or astral. That personal ability includes the ability to slow down, which must be an artifact of its ability to control the flow of magic through it. If the Movement power is extended to an object such as a car or a person, the ability to control that power does not necessarily extend to the object of the power, especially if it is an inanimate, unthinking object such as a vehicle. Maybe a person could control the power with which he was imbued, but if it is not a natural power to him, why should he be able to control it? And how would he be able to mentally/astrally slow the vehicle if it is the vehicle that had been sped up?

Now, if the spirit from which the power derived is canny enough to act (perhaps under a standing order from the summoner) to keep the sped object from going too fast in certain situations, then the object is freed from having to save itself, but otherwise brakes and legs are all they have, along with the stresses of travelling beyond the limits of their 'design'.

[crizh]

Can I just chime in here to point out that the SR4A Movement rules are moronic.

Only Air and Task Spirits of Materialization Traditions can use Movement upon themselves effectively. Every other type of Spirit has a Body that exceeds it's Force and is therefore limited to F/2.

Additionally a Force 5 Spirit cannot use Movement on a Body 12 Troll but everything is just fine if the Troll is riding a Dodge Scoot.

I can't help feeling that this particular Nerf didn't get a lot of play-testing.

Personally I would have gone with a version of the Levitate mechanics...

[Dragnar]

While the SR4A version is nerfed into uselessnes, the SR4 variant was hillariously powerfull and made even less sense. I mean, taking a ship from one continent to another costs, what, a quarter million bucks, but no one ever thought about industrialising the movement power, and paying a few thousand NuYen for greatly speeding the whole thing up?
Hell, a luxury sportscar wouldn't be the one with the strongest engine, it would be the one sold with a monthly contract for new spirit deliveries to make it break the sound barrier.

[crizh]

Don't get me wrong, I agree that it needed a change but what it needed was a well thought out change that actually fixed the problem.

Not some half-assed bodge that never saw play-testing.

Something based on mass would have made the most sense although some sort of bodge would still have to be created to estimate the mass of vehicles.

[pbangarth]

Something based on mass would have made the most sense although some sort of bodge would still have to be created to estimate the mass of vehicles.

Yes, something like:

1 Vehicle BOD= X kilograms
1 Creature BOD = Y kilograms

and:

A spirit can Move Z kilograms per Force

[crizh]

Can you tell that my favourite RPG supplement of all time is TNE: Fire, Fusion and Steel?

[Zen Shooter01]

It's magic. It works because it works. It does not obey or even recognize the laws of physics.

The OP's GM performed one of the classic bad gamemastering stunts, which is to take a power meant to be beneficial, and throw in a rotten easter egg like "Yes, you travel much faster, but...the brakes can't stop you at those speeds! Kee-Rash!" If that were in fact the case, don't you suppose that the magician, having studied spirits and conjuring, would know it? Yes, the Movement power was broken before SR4A, because, as written, it would ludicrously revolutionize naval warfare, to name just one field. Every aircraft carrier would have a magician on board. But the thing to do with a broken rule is fix it, not try to cancel it out with some downside effect like the brakes not being able to stop the car.

[Lilt]

Not an awfully high-powered spirit you're using there, buddy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Lol, oops. It's better than the first spirit I had, however, which condensed 1 meter into 3 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Facilitating movement works if you're moving across country or something, where there are lots of obstacles and bumps that you could naturally move faster over if it was sorted-out for you. I don't see that explanation as cutting it, however, when you're speeding down a freeway or desert road.

@pbangarth: Actually, they do sort-of make sense if you think about it. Space warped one way is also warped the other. If the actual effect is making the subject's strides 3 times longer, which makes the road seem 3 times shorter.

I also do agree that there are some limitations, as attempting to move around town on a scooter at 240 m/ct would probably result in a crash. Although my description of the movement power would mean that was only a speed 60 crash, there'd probably be a crash and the scooter would probably be damaged.

As for weights and movement speeds:
I see no real problems in air and task spirits being faster, they almost certainly should be faster than earth spirits, although I agree there's a lack of scale.

I do like the idea of using levitate-like mechanics, although because most things don't list weight it'd largely mean every use of the power would come down to a GM's call.

[Zormal]

True, Movement doesn't warp space. This is even stated explicitly @ Street Magic p.159 - "Sorcery Cannot Alter the Fabric of the Space/Time Continuum". Okay, spirit powers are not sorcery, but I would think it applies.

Still... The movement power doesn't make you speed up in the physical sense. This has been discussed many times, for example here and here. To put it short, you gain the advantage of more speed without any of the adverse side effects.

[Psikerlord]

the enhanced (or slowed too) movement should probably have a time limit, like number of turns or hours or something equal to force. That would limit it's usefulness a bit too.

[pbangarth]

OK, so the general consensus here is that there is no down side to the Movement power. This is too bad, 'cause I wanted to have some fun with it. But OK.

So, what still bothers me though, is something like the following scenario.

My possession tradition mage wants to make a deal with a local biker gang leader. The mage's part of the bargain is to guarantee the biker that his hog will be the fastest in the city for a year and a day. (Bike possessed by a long-term-bound spirit with movement power). As long as the bike is driven just a little bit faster than anybody else's, it should appear to be the driver and a hot bike, nothing more. He should win a lot of races and cash and prestige. Then at the end he sells the bike to someone who thinks he can do the same. Nobody is ever the wiser.

The problem comes if the biker decides to let loose, despite the warnings of the mage. So there is a bike going hundreds of kilometers an hour. And he tries to turn a corner. Surely there should be some problem for the biker that the 'no negative side effects' Movement power doesn't protect him from. Biker can't manage the speed. The rubber tires get ripped off by the G-forces. (Yeah, yeah, I know this one has been shouted down already, but I figured the mage could beef up the price by saying the possessed bike would have a stronger Body and Armour.) Something!

Help me out here.

[DireRadiant]

Just tell the spirit to do that. Define conditions under which the Movement power is used or not used, or turned off suddenly.

[Zormal]

Or combine Movement with a conditional Accident (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[pbangarth]

I don't actually want anything to happen to the biker, I just can't imagine all that speed can be generated with no consequences. Basically, its just resistance on my part to the all-round goodness of the Movement power.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

OK, so the general consensus here is that there is no down side to the Movement power. This is too bad, 'cause I wanted to have some fun with it. But OK.

So, what still bothers me though, is something like the following scenario.

My possession tradition mage wants to make a deal with a local biker gang leader. The mage's part of the bargain is to guarantee the biker that his hog will be the fastest in the city for a year and a day. (Bike possessed by a long-term-bound spirit with movement power). As long as the bike is driven just a little bit faster than anybody else's, it should appear to be the driver and a hot bike, nothing more. He should win a lot of races and cash and prestige. Then at the end he sells the bike to someone who thinks he can do the same. Nobody is ever the wiser.

The problem comes if the biker decides to let loose, despite the warnings of the mage. So there is a bike going hundreds of kilometers an hour. And he tries to turn a corner. Surely there should be some problem for the biker that the 'no negative side effects' Movement power doesn't protect him from. Biker can't manage the speed. The rubber tires get ripped off by the G-forces. (Yeah, yeah, I know this one has been shouted down already, but I figured the mage could beef up the price by saying the possessed bike would have a stronger Body and Armour.) Something!

Help me out here.

Use a spirit with the "guard" power as well as the "movement" power. No glitches, no blowouts or flat tires, no breakdowns. Sure, he could still intentionally ram something, but that's about it.

[DireRadiant]

Think beyond having it inherent with the actual power.

What happens to the biker who is known to have a kick ass cool MAGICAL bike? He's going to have to be able to keep it. He hangs out with a violent gang.

You want something negative, the universe abhors power in the hands of those too weak to keep it.

Karma baby. It bites.

[crizh]

The more I look at it the less well Movement appears to be designed.

I mean seriously, there is no circumstance where any reasonable use of Movement just doesn't become flat out silly. A Force 4 Spirit brings a human up to 65 mph+ and the same Spirit has vehicles knocking on the Sound Barrier pretty easily.

Two fixes spring immediately to mind. Firstly, in line with mod's in Arsenal, Movement improves speed by 20% per point of Magic. A Force 5 Spirit will still achieve impressive results but it will stay in the realms of sanity. Secondly limit the amount of mass effected by the Power to Magic x 250kg. You could add a second category of +10% per point of Magic up to Magic x 500kg if you like.

This would still have some interesting economic effects but nothing like the ridiculous nonsense the current version would realistically generate.

A Force 5 could double the speed of a car or small van. Not only would this greatly improve delivery times and slash fuel costs it would change the whole dynamic of cargo shipping from big-rigs, cargo vessels and massive SHAPELY dirigibles. Only the biggest cargoes would be shipped the old way and anything shipped the new way benefits from having a Force 5 Spirit on hand to prevent accidents and provide an additional layer of security.

[pbangarth]

Think beyond having it inherent with the actual power.

What happens to the biker who is known to have a kick ass cool MAGICAL bike? He's going to have to be able to keep it. He hangs out with a violent gang.

You want something negative, the universe abhors power in the hands of those too weak to keep it.

Karma baby. It bites.

That's why the mage would suggest the biker not overdo it, and in fact lose the odd race. In a race, outrun the best opponent by half a bike length, not 20 miles. There should be little or magical talent among the local gangs and any that would exist shouldn't have reason to be Assensing a bike that doesn't really stand out.

[pbangarth]

Use a spirit with the "guard" power as well as the "movement" power. No glitches, no blowouts or flat tires, no breakdowns. Sure, he could still intentionally ram something, but that's about it.

Yes, I agree that is a logical combination. I just wonder why it isn't even necessary, given the way the Movement power is written and interpreted.