[SR4] - Movement Power Options

[HappyDaze]

The more I look at it the less well Movement appears to be designed.

I mean seriously, there is no circumstance where any reasonable use of Movement just doesn't become flat out silly.

It's designed for those circumstances where the target "just gets there" faster - like when Jason from Friday the 13th can easily keep up with or overtake anyone running away from him with just his 'slow' walk.

It's also a design remnant from a time when pink mohawk was the only way to go. Chances are the closer to a tight black trenchcoat style you play, the more objection you'll have with several of the spells (Turn to Goo) and spirit powers.

[DireRadiant]

The problem comes if the biker decides to let loose, despite the warnings of the mage. So there is a bike going hundreds of kilometers an hour. And he tries to turn a corner. Surely there should be some problem for the biker that the 'no negative side effects' Movement power doesn't protect him from. Biker can't manage the speed. The rubber tires get ripped off by the G-forces. (Yeah, yeah, I know this one has been shouted down already, but I figured the mage could beef up the price by saying the possessed bike would have a stronger Body and Armour.) Something!

Help me out here.

Another approach, also not directly linked to the power, but in all those races, the Biker is going to do Vehicle Tests. He's bound to get a glitch or critical glitch eventually. Struggling to imagine what the glitch could be? Could it be related to the awesome magic bike he's riding?

[Heath Robinson]

The thing is that the Movement power allows you to divide the movement rate by the same value. It's already established that spirits can intuitively understand how to assist in complex operations, since casting a spell is not a simple procedure. I don't think it'd destroy verisimilitude to say that the spirit also helps in braking by switching to the other aspect of movement, slowing the vehicle dramatically when necessary. Or it just stops using power - it's also been established that the repeated use of a power can be abstracted away into a single service in certain circumstances (because, seriously, you shouldn't lose a service every time your spirits use elemental attacks).

Even if you don't follow the convention on Movement that I hold (that it compresses the "perceived" distance instead of increasing speed), this gives you a reason why Movement lets you travel safely at the speed of sound. It also makes for a nice thematic aspect if the ganger's safety is dependant on how well he treats the spirit.

[Larme]

As far as why transit companies don't use spirits to make things uber fast: they probably do! Why the hell wouldn't they? People use spirits to make their vehicles faster, just like doctors use magic to heal wounds faster and detoxify the body, just like Hollywood uses physical illusions to create realistic effects without needing a computer. Now, I do agree with the SR4 fix, I think it makes the power more balanced. You're only going to have a jet liner go super fast if you can summon a very big, very expensive spirit. But I bet it's common practice for corporate CEOs, and probably corporate high-priority hit squads, to make their much smaller transports scream around the globe using Movement.

As for the power working on a dodge scoot, but not the troll riding the dodge scoot, I fail to see how that's a problem. Sure, it's illogical. Since when did magic follow logic? If it made perfect sense, it wouldn't be paranormal, would it? Magic is a thing that can be used by a hermetic mage, a shaman, and a voodoo witch doctor. They all have completely different ideas about how and why it works. And they're all right, and it works equally well for all of them! Last I checked, scientific phenomena did not work that way. Everyone has to do science the same way, and all results must be replicable. But then you have magic, where one person can invoke the Seventh Sephiroth by drawing a mystical diagram of the heavens, and another person can ask Thor to send a great servant of the storms, and yet another person can ask the Great Spirit to send his breath, and they all come up with a Force 4 air spirit. If you expect that kind of system to follow logical rules, and you criticize it when it fails to do so, you're nuts. Sometimes you just have to accept that game balance leads better results at the expense of realism. And sometimes you have to accept that realism doesn't apply to non-real things! It shouldn't matter because we're talking about a fictional, paranormal force which is not fully understood, even in the Shadowrun universe, and probably never will be.

[crizh]

As far as why transit companies don't use spirits to make things uber fast: they probably do! Why the hell wouldn't they? People use spirits to make their vehicles faster, just like doctors use magic to heal wounds faster and detoxify the body, just like Hollywood uses physical illusions to create realistic effects without needing a computer. Now, I do agree with the SR4 fix, I think it makes the power more balanced. You're only going to have a jet liner go super fast if you can summon a very big, very expensive spirit. But I bet it's common practice for corporate CEOs, and probably corporate high-priority hit squads, to make their much smaller transports scream around the globe using Movement.

As for the power working on a dodge scoot, but not the troll riding the dodge scoot, I fail to see how that's a problem. Sure, it's illogical. Since when did magic follow logic? If it made perfect sense, it wouldn't be paranormal, would it? Magic is a thing that can be used by a hermetic mage, a shaman, and a voodoo witch doctor. They all have completely different ideas about how and why it works. And they're all right, and it works equally well for all of them! Last I checked, scientific phenomena did not work that way. Everyone has to do science the same way, and all results must be replicable. But then you have magic, where one person can invoke the Seventh Sephiroth by drawing a mystical diagram of the heavens, and another person can ask Thor to send a great servant of the storms, and yet another person can ask the Great Spirit to send his breath, and they all come up with a Force 4 air spirit. If you expect that kind of system to follow logical rules, and you criticize it when it fails to do so, you're nuts. Sometimes you just have to accept that game balance leads better results at the expense of realism. And sometimes you have to accept that realism doesn't apply to non-real things! It shouldn't matter because we're talking about a fictional, paranormal force which is not fully understood, even in the Shadowrun universe, and probably never will be.

Wow.

Seriously?

Do you realize how much of a Troll that posting was?

Why don't you take a minute to re-read it objectively?

[HappyDaze]

I don't really see where the trolling is in the post, and since it took more than 26 hours to 'provoke' a response, it doesn't seem that too many here really think it's that bad.

[crizh]

I'll break it down for you then.

Point 1) There isn't anything wrong with the current mechanic of multiplying velocity by Magic.

Fails to address any of the points raised in this thread regarding why people might think that's somewhat unbalanced, nonsensical and economically stupid.

Point 2) Admits to a balance issue with airliners.

Whether that's a mass issue or a 'lunacy of super-sonic spirit travel' issue isn't mentioned but agrees with the SR4A fix, again without addressing any of the issues regarding the mathematical stupidity of that fix that have already been raised in this thread.

Point 3) Plays the 'Magic' card, so none of this has to make any logical sense.

Belabours this point to a frankly insulting degree and in the same breath negates every argument he has made, or will ever make, on the subject of magic in SR because apparently magic does not have to make any sort of sense or be in any way balanced.


The post is internally inconsistent, the points made contradict each other, and the opinions stated as to the suitability of the current mechanic are entirely unsupported by reasoned argument.

Spouting a bunch of opinions without even attempting to debate the issues others are discussing is Trolling, to my mind. I'm sure it was accidental and Larme will have something more reasoned to say in response once he has a chance to think about it.

As to delay, I've certainly been busy and I've noticed that DS is always a lot slower on the weekend.

[HappyDaze]

I guess I don't directly relate "expression of personal opinions without attempt to debate" with trolling, but whatever.

[Psikerlord]

MAybe it is also just apparent from the get go that the bike is being magically boosted. Using the movement power might cause it to "glide" along the surface with a strange nimbus, who knows? In fact wouldn't most powers have some kind of visual effect?

[Larme]

Do you realize how much of a Troll that posting was?

Dude, making an argument that you disagree with is not a troll. A troll is something that is deliberately inflammatory or provocative and adds nothing to the discussion except provoking a response. The fact that you disagree with me so much that it provoked you doesn't make it a troll -- I wasn't trying to provoke you, I was just adding my 2 yen to the discussion. Leave the moderating to the moderators.

There's no reason why I'm wrong based on failing to address the "mathematical stupidity." You seem to be another person who thinks that, if there's a number involved, then it's objective truth and there's only one answer. The fact is, while there might be numbers, you are making a subjective judgment that the numbers are "stupid." That's entirely your personal opinion, and I'm under no obligation to try and prove it wrong. I disagree, I don't think that it's stupid, and you can't prove me wrong because you're making a subjective decision about numbers, not drawing some kind of inexorable conclusion based on math.

I really do think that it's a waste of time to try and reason out the physical mechanics behind magic. It's a non-physical, non-scientific phenomenon. You think I just invalidated every magic argument I ever made? Great, good for you. I'm going to continue posting on Dumpshock like always, and you can go ahead and ignore all of it if you feel like it. I'd definitely prefer to forgo any more hostility laden attacks from you in the future. IMO though, you're conflating two things: realism and balance. They have nothing to do with each other, and often conflict. Often things must be unrealistic to be balanced. But as far as SR4 as a whole goes, the devs have made a decision that magic is essentially balanced by other magic. Movement is balanced because if one group can abuse it, so can other groups. It's a factor on both sides of the equation, so it cancels out. It's that simple.

I don't appreciate being condemned for "spouting off a bunch of opinions." There is no rule that I have to respond directly to what other people say, there is no rule that I treat your arguments as conclusive and try to methodically refute them. I have a life of my own, and I'm entitled to write up a quick post containing my thoughts on the matter. You have no right to call that a troll, or to tell me I'm not allowed to do it. If you think a rule has been violated, use the report button. If not, leave me alone.

[Screaming Eagle]

Going back to the bike and the movement power trick "spirits object to long term sevitude and will distort orders when possible and be too literal for others" I don't have a page referance but thats the gist of where I go when PC's start this kinda thing. Alot of the magic system in not about precicely how the rules say the mechanics work but how the traditions spirits appear and behave. Spirits summoned and bound by a "Trickster" mentored mage (to site a obvious example) are probably going to have some serious issue with being bound for a year and a day and say start "using" the movement power without "controlling" the movement power. Stacking it with "Guard" sorts out most of the problem, but what happens when the spirit desides that the 2 orders contradict? Making you go fast on your bike in traffic is not "Guarding" you, taking you to a quiet park and refusing to start is. Did anyone tell the spirit it couldn't go for pleasure trips when its master isn't using it?..

Later someone else finds out about the magic bike, tracks down the binding mage and knocks him out causing the spirit to go uncontrolled. How have you been treating your sapient motorcycle friend? Cause now he might be a free spirit and the next time you go for a race...

[crizh]

making an argument that you disagree with is not a troll.

Then make an argument.

I disagree, I don't think that it's stupid, and you can't prove me wrong

What's stupid and why? What particular rule?

That'll be why I can't prove you wrong.

That's why I suggested that your posting was verging on Trolling.

I'd definitely prefer to forgo any more hostility laden attacks from you in the future.

No hostility here.

Provide some sort of argument to support your position and we can debate it like civilised human beings. Heck, if you're right I'll be more than happy to concede. Check my record here. If I'm am convinced by an argument I am more than happy to change my opinion. Being unwilling to do so is Mind-death.

leave me alone.

Strangely that's what I thought when I saw an argumentative post with little or no content.

[Larme]

Provide some sort of argument to support your position and we can debate it like civilised human beings. Heck, if you're right I'll be more than happy to concede. Check my record here. If I'm am convinced by an argument I am more than happy to change my opinion. Being unwilling to do so is Mind-death.

I'm really not sure what you want. I'm really not even sure what your position is, or what its basis is. You come over here and DEMAND that I study all of the other posts on the thread, formulate a comprehensive theory of the other side, and then methodically refute it in every way I can? How about not? If you care that much about what I think, then go ahead and write out a summary for me. Tell me succinctly what your position is, and what its basic justifications are, and I'll respond to that. If my post lacked argument as you say, it's because the counter-arguments are scattered across different posts and I didn't think it was my sworn duty to analyze them, synthesize them, and criticize them like this was some kind of academic journal. I just put my thoughts out there, not as an attempt to tear down anyone else's ideas, but just to state my position on the matter. There's no mind-death in being unwilling to engage in a debate on an internet forum -- mind-death is the belief that the debate on the internet forum actually matters.

[crizh]

So to summarize, you haven't read the thread or deigned to attempt to understand any of the discussion that was going on here.

You just parachuted in and latched onto an example I had made of the inconsistent nature of the Movement power as is.

You then proceeded to argue that my point was worthless and carried no real weight because it's Magic, hand-wave, hand-wave.

A point which you then spoon fed to me in tiny little moron sized chunks for 217 extraneous words.

And then you wonder why my response might have erred on the hostile side?

If you can't be bothered to read and digest a thread perhaps you should apply the same amount of effort to replying in it.

[HappyDaze]

crizh,

I'm not even the one your griping at, but your last post just earned you a place on my ignore list. Try to understand, not everyone posts by the same set of 'rules' you hold in your head, but so long as they follow the board rules, that's OK. Beyond that, it's just a game - taking it a little less seriously might help in getting others to take you more seriously. Perspective and all...

[crizh]

If somebody contradicts my position in a debate I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to support their position with reasoned argument.

My insistence on defending my position against such rhetoric earns me a position on your 'ignore list'?

I'm not sure I'm the one taking this too seriously.

[Screaming Eagle]

I've always perfered discussion to debate: fewer people try to win a discussion.

[HappyDaze]

I've always perfered discussion to debate: fewer people try to win a discussion.

Very true.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Very true.

Ain't that the Truth, Everyone Just take a deep breath and relax...

[ornot]

I have had a problem with the movement power i my games. Basically it's either a big "I Win" button on all chase combat or it makes no difference (and my players whine), which is not helped by the fact that the chase rules are sketchy anyway.

If it was made a little more subtle, say by increasing by 10% per Force rather than 100% per force, I'd be happier.

As for Larme's initial post; I don't think it was Trolling. Larme may talk down to everyone in his posts, but that's just his way. Often his arguments and opinions are fairly reasonable and well thought out. Dragging things out into personal to and fro is a surefire way to attract mod intervention.

[Screaming Eagle]

Well to counter to PC's use of the power to "Win" chases fast and hard - Part of the point of having a mage on most runner teams is this kind of dynamic grab bag of tricks. You cannot out run a chopper normally but enters your force... say 5 spirit with concelment and movement and you might just get off scott free. The fun starts when the opposition is a cut above or the on-staff wage mage (who may or may not be initiated/ have invoking etc.) was pulling an all-nighter at the office (re-enforcing astral wards, catching up on his reports and generally padding his visable working hours) and is on-site when the page comes though to call up one of the companies bound spirits to aid persuit with search and movement. I would tend to do this sort of thing once they get too comfortable with their "advantage" and/or they have edged their way into the "Big" runs.

Sing song voice - "Anything you can do the Corp can do better!"

I know I'm not adressing the "broken power" part... I never found it all that broken - potent yes, hilarious yes. But any opposition worth it's salt has the same trick, probably at higher force, with bigger guns to back it up. I'm also in the camp that glitching while going breakneck insano speeds WILL mess you up and woe betide the magus who abuses the spirits (loa, ansestors, kami, psioninc eminations, little green imagination men) and then begs potentially dangerous favours of them. Some spirits would have a different definition of abuse then others... "Yes master, your chariot was granted the boon of the winds speed and my guardianship from harm. As you can see the "crumple zone" has not crumpled at all and the transport is quite safe. Master? Ah, you appear to be dying of multipule internal injuries caused by my stopping the car so fast to save it from harm. A pity you did not word your request more clearly as I would never dream of deliberatly causing you harm. You have one wish left my master, what do you desire?" The Djinns' eyes glint evily, fade to black.

[Screaming Eagle]

To clarify perhaps a bit of context: The teams Mage (Shamanistic) is slightly scared of summoning spirits and only does so when it is critical. This is mostly because when they show up I make a secret test, 3 dice, in no way based on force. No hits leaves a placated spirit, for its force (intelligence) it is rather dim and tractable obeying orders in a dull manner and being vaugely helpful to its summoner. One hit and its 'bright' but not activly opposed to aiding the group, this gets a rather "default spirit" using its powers intelligently for the groups benifit when asked. 2 hits and the spirit is "willful", if well and treated with some respect it will use its powers as instructed with no misinterpriation, often using them more effectivly, if persiving a slight or instructed to do something "benieth it" it will be moderatly troublesome. 3 hits and they clearly just got the spirit out of the shower to answer the phone and its those F***ing summoners again, this ranges from active hostility to simple impaitence with any task set to it. I find this gives me a good spring board for roleplaying spirits summoned on the fly and impresses on the group that these are sapient beings with motivations and desires, often alien motivations, but quite real.

[Larme]

People are making a mistake if they think that Speed alone lets you get away from chase combat. Unless you're in the open desert with no obstacles, having a top speed of 2000 isn't that helpful -- anyone who tried to actually drive at 2000 MPT on city streets would be a dead man. In chase combat, your actual speed is not kept track of. Your Speed attribute simply provides a bonus for the opposed vehicle test. Now, having a top speed of 2000, compared to an opponent's 200, would give you +180 dice to the opposed vehicle test, allowing you to set the range every turn. However, even at extreme range, you must succeed at a Break Off, with a threshold of +1 per enemy chasing you. You can't simply speed away at 2000 MPT, because again unless there's absolutely nothing in your way, you can't drive your top speed. The enemy is going to keep track of you until you Break Off. Chase combat is set up so you always have to engage the enemy if there's a bunch of them. You have to destroy or Cut Off a sufficient number of enemies to make Break Off practical, otherwise the abstract system assumes that you can't lose them just by driving faster. Now, there could be situations you just wouldn't model with chase combat, like escaping from someone in an open desert, or on the high seas. Since there's nothing to slow you down, you could possibly just drive faster than them and be gone. That wouldn't be chase combat though, that would be handled with tactical combat, the same as if you were trying to run away from someone on foot. I wish the RAW specified it clearer, but chase combat is only for cinematic car chases through traffic and obstacles and whatnot, where there's no practical way to escape without pulling off some seriously badass moves (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ornot]

That's a very fair point Larme and Screaming Eagle both.

Since my player team includes two pretty stunning wheelmen, it should come as no surprise that they routinely escape, and the movement power actually has remarkably little to do with it. I guess I'll just have to up the ante, by throwing in a few choppers or arial drones, and not sweat the movement power.

How good do you reckon pursuit cops should be? I was giving them reaction 5, skill 4, +4 from VCR and handling bonuses. Of course with my rolling I was only getting 3 hits to my players 10, which was prety sickening.

[Prime Mover]

Alienation and Movement have probably been the least used spirit powers in any edition of SR at our table. Not sure if thats due to lack of understanding or just short descriptions. Both of these powers could have stood a major overhaul to keep them viable. One was cut from the line all together and the other just kept as is. It wasn't until recently when in one of our alt campaigns that a Free Spirit PC has really pushed the limits of the movement power at our table. Like most players he's come up with a host of uses that the simple description given hardly covers. We've played it out as a blur of condensed movement as opposed to any realistic speed increase. It's also been an ace in the hole for leaving the scene of a crime before pursuit can arrive.