Called shots to avoid armor, What do you do with armor piercing ammo/weapons? Options

[Dakka Dakka]

With a called shot you can take a penalty equal to the target's armor to disallow the target to use armor to soak. Do you use the base value or the value or the value adjusted by the shot's AP?

I'd prefer the latter ruling because the former completely ignores part of the weapon's capabilites. On the other hand the latter implies that the shooter includes lightly armored parts in his field of fire, which might not be so easy to discern.

This brings me to another question, can invisble armor (dermal plating/sheath under clothes, adept powers etc) be avoided?

[Lilt]

With a called shot you can take a penalty equal to the target's armor to disallow the target to use armor to soak. Do you use the base value or the value or the value adjusted by the shot's AP?

I'd prefer the latter ruling because the former completely ignores part of the weapon's capabilites. On the other hand the latter implies that the shooter includes lightly armored parts in his field of fire, which might not be so easy to discern.

This brings me to another question, can invisble armor (dermal plating/sheath under clothes, adept powers etc) be avoided?

It would be the former, as finding an unarmored part of the body is just as difficult regardless of the type of weapon or the ammo you're using. I.e.: Why should finding an unarmored portion be harder with gel rounds than with Ex-Ex rounds.

As for what types of armor you can bypass, by the RAW I think you can bypass anything. It's also arguable that, BY RAW, it's an all-or-nothing shot. You either bypass all 15 armor the target has (and the target just rolls body), or you don't.

Logic, however, dictates that you can only bypass what you're aware of. That scarf, for example, may not look armored but may sport a kevlar weave. The same goes for a dermal sheath you may not be aware of. If the attacker is unaware of some of the armour, I'd have said they could only avoid what they're aware of. That'd be my rules-call, however.

[Dakka Dakka]

As the armor value is an average over the whole body it would be possible to shoot a part that is so lightly armored, that the armor penetration of the weapon used would negate this light armor.

[ArkonC]

Because of the abstract nature of the rules I'd probably rule AP mods apply and then you get the rest of the armor value as a DP penalty...
Of course, I would only count absolute values in reduction, no AP mods that say half armor, just because it seems to make sense to me...

Just my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Why would you exclude halving AP?

[ArkonC]

Because it doesn't punch through the armor, it just makes it softer, and you're aiming for the parts you can punch through...
Also, the math is much quicker... (the lazy point of view is still a point of view (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

[Method]

I disregard the weapons AP all together if the shooter calls a shot to bypass armor. Getting a thru-and-thru head shot with an AP round doesn't make you any more dead than the same hole from a regular round unless you wanna start talk talking about the barrier rating of the metahuman skull, which is beyond the scope of the game if you ask me. In all reality, the AP round should be *less* effective against unarmored targets because the round is designed not to fragment or deform to create a nastier wound channel.

As for bypassing unknown armor, I would allow the player to make the shot but make a hidden roll for the targets defense taking into account the weapons AP and the hidden armor then describe the targets response IC.

[Mäx]

I disregard the weapons AP all together if the shooter calls a shot to bypass armor. Getting a thru-and-thru head shot with an AP round doesn't make you any more dead than the same hole from a regular round unless you wanna start talk talking about the barrier rating of the metahuman skull, which is beyond the scope of the game if you ask me.

Yes but AP rounds allow you to target light armored spot, that the AP-round penetrates, instead of totally unarmored spot so the AP-valua should be taken into acount when calling shot to bypass armor.

[Method]

Yes but AP rounds allow you to target light armored spot, that the AP-round penetrates, instead of totally unarmored spot so the AP-valua should be taken into acount when calling shot to bypass armor.

If that were the case I'd probably make the player spend an action to Observe in Detail and possibly roll his Armorer skill. After all, the character is usually making this highly selective shot within a time frame of less than a second. That doesn't leave a lot of time to mull over the target's trendy fashion ensemble and decide which article looks less armored than the others... Remember your character doesn't look at armor in terms of neatly quantified Ballistic and Impact ratings.

Now if you have lots of time on your hands (a sniper situation for example), you might have the time to make that distinction. But doing so in a pitched fire fight strikes me as a little metagamey. No-one under fire thinks to them-self "Well, I could shoot that guy in the head, but that would take extraordinary effort. Instead I'll just aim for that less armored area, since my AP ammo will definitely punch through it..." I would argue that the thought process is something more like "Dontgetshot-dontgetshot-fuckme-dontgetshot-Igottakillthisguyintheface-dontgetshot....."

[Mäx]

If that were the case I'd probably make the player spend an action to Observe in Detail and possibly roll his Armorer skill. After all, the character is usually making this highly selective shot within a time frame of less than a second. That doesn't leave a lot of time to mull over the target's trendy fashion ensemble and decide which article looks less armored than the others... Remember your character doesn't look at armor in terms of neatly quantified Ballistic and Impact ratings.

Now if you have lots of time on your hands (a sniper situation for example), you might have the time to make that distinction. But doing so in a pitched fire fight strikes me as a little metagamey. No-one under fire thinks to them-self "Well, I could shoot that guy in the head, but that would take extraordinary effort. Instead I'll just aim for that less armored area, since my AP ammo will definitely punch through it..." I would argue that the thought process is something more like "Dontgetshot-dontgetshot-fuckme-dontgetshot-Igottakillthisguyintheface-dontgetshot....."

The minus you take to you dice pool when doing a called shots to avoid armor prepresent it being harder to hit a non armored place in the target as opposed to just hitting the target in general, AP-ammo makes it easier as you don't necceseraly have to hit a spot thats completdly unarmored as you bullet will punch trought light armor.

[Dikotana]

When shooting normally you are, or should be, aiming for the center of mass. Sure, you're aiming at a pile of kevlar and future ceramics designed to make your bullet do nothing much, but if you miss the center of mass you hit the slightly off-center of mass, which is still your target's abdomen and probably bad news for him. Miss even worse and you're looking at a hit to a limb (or the head, if you're very lucky!)

When you make a called shot, you're taking a substantial hit to accuracy by aiming for a particular weak spot. The downside is that the center of mass isn't your target anymore. You're aiming at a head, or the unarmored limbs, or a joint, or something like that. The penalty is for the fact that you're already aiming away from the easy target. Missing a little bit now means you won't hit at all.

Armor is an abstraction. The higher the armor rating, the better the armor and the more coverage it applies. Trying to shoot around it means choosing less and less optimal shots as the armor gets better. Aiming at more lightly armored parts (joints, or whatever) just seems like a way to abuse stacking of AP and called shots.

I've always run adept powers and dermal armor as full-body coverage. You could conceivably shoot around dermal armor, but you'd also have to aim away from vitals, and in the end it's a wash or an exercise in trying to shoot someone without shooting his skin. Adepts are using magic, and bullets just can't get around that.

[Dakka Dakka]

Armor is an abstraction. The higher the armor rating, the better the armor and the more coverage it applies. Trying to shoot around it means choosing less and less optimal shots as the armor gets better. Aiming at more lightly armored parts (joints, or whatever) just seems like a way to abuse stacking of AP and called shots.

I'd hardly call it abuse, it's more of a way to make avoiding armor a more viable option, the -dice +DV option is the overpowered one.

I've always run adept powers and dermal armor as full-body coverage. You could conceivably shoot around dermal armor, but you'd also have to aim away from vitals, and in the end it's a wash or an exercise in trying to shoot someone without shooting his skin. Adepts are using magic, and bullets just can't get around that

So does the shot's AP work in the case of Adept powers in your opinion? BTW only the heaviest form of dermal sheath and orthoskin are full body coverage.

[Method]

...strikes me as a little metagamey.

<snip> [game mechanics]

I don't think its possible for you have missed my point more friend. Must have been all those dice you minused on your called shot at understanding...

[Dakka Dakka]

Isn't it metagamey as well if you try to shoot an adept wearing a leather jacket and having Mystic Armor 6, and you have to reduce your dicepool by 8? On the other hand if you can't reduce the invisible armor, why wouldn't you get the AP modifier on the mystic armor?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I disregard the weapons AP all together if the shooter calls a shot to bypass armor. Getting a thru-and-thru head shot with an AP round doesn't make you any more dead than the same hole from a regular round unless you wanna start talk talking about the barrier rating of the metahuman skull, which is beyond the scope of the game if you ask me. In all reality, the AP round should be *less* effective against unarmored targets because the round is designed not to fragment or deform to create a nastier wound channel.

As for bypassing unknown armor, I would allow the player to make the shot but make a hidden roll for the targets defense taking into account the weapons AP and the hidden armor then describe the targets response IC.

1. Which is generally how it works in real life... an AP round against an unarmored target has No additional effect but to dissipate its energy on teh terrain behind the target...

2. Not a bad idea, and is probably how I would rule it... you should not be able to bypass that dermal armor (of the Troll) or the mystic armor (of the adept), for instance... but AP capabilities may still nullify it after the target is impacted...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Isn't it metagamey as well if you try to shoot an adept wearing a leather jacket and having Mystic Armor 6, and you have to reduce your dicepool by 8? On the other hand if you can't reduce the invisible armor, why wouldn't you get the AP modifier on the mystic armor?

Yes, it is metagamey... You should not lose the dice for this... However, that being said, the armor would apply (the mystic armor) if the target was actually hit, and would be modified by the AP of the round at that point...

[Falconer]

This is just me... but it makes more sense to do a called shot for damage if you are already packing anti-vehicular rounds. +4DV is roughly akin to removing 12 dice of armor soak. And it seems much more akin to, 'aiming for a weak point in the armor' rather than bypassing it totally. The only time that shouldn't really be enough will be if someone pulls out a tank.

6P base, +4 10, -4AP... we're already punching through armor rating 14. Depending on the size of the target... I might even allow a wide burst (wide burst into the trucks radiator grill w/ the APDS AR).

W/ the new scatter rules it doesn't make much sense... but I always kind of missed that there isn't an anti-vehicular grenade for the launchers... the kind of thing which works great if you can get a direct hit. Not the kind of thing which is too hard for a player to make IC though.

Maybe we need a called shot to reduce scatter option :).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is just me... but it makes more sense to do a called shot for damage if you are already packing anti-vehicular rounds. +4DV is roughly akin to removing 12 dice of armor soak. And it seems much more akin to, 'aiming for a weak point in the armor' rather than bypassing it totally. The only time that shouldn't really be enough will be if someone pulls out a tank.

Ditto...

[Method]

Isn't it metagamey as well if you try to shoot an adept wearing a leather jacket and having Mystic Armor 6, and you have to reduce your dicepool by 8? On the other hand if you can't reduce the invisible armor, why wouldn't you get the AP modifier on the mystic armor?

As I said I would allow a player to bypass the leather and then apply the AP vs the Mystic Armor. In other words, in my game you cannot use a Called Shot to bypass Mystic Armor or any other armor you don't know about, but in that case I would honor the weapon's AP.

My point about selecting less armored parts of the target is that when you do the math the average Simple Action in SR is *less than half a sec*. The character may be highly trained and fast enough to make an "Armored vs Not Armored" distinction or a "Center of Mass vs Head Shot" distinction, but studying the target's armor and selecting what looks like it might be a less armored area is unrealistic, and the underlying logic reflects the *players* understanding of AP and Ballistic ratings- which is metagaming. I am not saying it cannot be done, or that I wouldn't allow it. I am proposing that the character is required to spend a whole other half a second (or less) to study the armor and possibly make an Armorer test.

[Draco18s]

My point about selecting less armored parts of the target is that when you do the math the average Simple Action in SR is *less than half a sec*.

A character could however chose a "headshot" over "bodyshot" knowing that the target does have a cyberskull with Armor, but it isn't the cybertorso, armored up and wearing a flak jacket.

[Method]

I suppose. If the character knows that much about the target in advance. See point #1 above.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My point about selecting less armored parts of the target is that when you do the math the average Simple Action in SR is *less than half a sec*. The character may be highly trained and fast enough to make an "Armored vs Not Armored" distinction or a "Center of Mass vs Head Shot" distinction, but studying the target's armor and selecting what looks like it might be a less armored area is unrealistic, and the underlying logic reflects the *players* understanding of AP and Ballistic ratings- which is metagaming. I am not saying it cannot be done, or that I wouldn't allow it. I am proposing that the character is required to spend a whole other half a second (or less) to study the armor and possibly make an Armorer test.

At which point you have just wasted your action for the pass, as a non-combat SKill test tends to take up a minimum of Simple action and usually a complex action or more (in this case... Perception Test, Armorer Test... Minimum of Complex Action, Possibly more)... remember, the round is only 3 seconds long...

That being said, this could work, though I would never go this route myself...

[Method]

I agree with your point, but SR combat considerably faster than you have described. The Combat *Turn* is 3 seconds long. A Pass is 1 to 0.75 secs (depending on if there are 3 or 4 passes, there are rarely less in my experience). If we assume that everyone that acts in a pass acts almost simultaneously the Simple action is 0.5 to 0.375 seconds *at the most*. If you do not assume everyone acts simultaneously its even less. SR combat is retarded fast.

However, I should clarify that I would use the Armorer Skill Test as a proxy for a Knowledge Skill check, and I would not require an additional Simple or Complex action. The character either recognizes the target's armor or doesn't. And even if you did require an action, waiting an additional 1 or 0.75 sec to make this kind of shot does not seem unreasonable.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree with your point, but SR combat considerably faster than you have described. The Combat *Turn* is 3 seconds long. A Pass is 1 to 0.75 secs (depending on if there are 3 or 4 passes, there are rarely less in my experience). If we assume that everyone that acts in a pass acts almost simultaneously the Simple action is 0.5 to 0.375 seconds *at the most*. If you do not assume everyone acts simultaneously its even less. SR combat is retarded fast.

However, I should clarify that I would use the Armorer Skill Test as a proxy for a Knowledge Skill check, and I would not require an additional Simple or Complex action. The character either recognizes the target's armor or doesn't. And even if you did require an action, waiting an additional 1 or 0.75 sec to make this kind of shot does not seem unreasonable.

Average passes for our group is 2...

And point taken

[Method]

Average passes for our group is 2...

I tend to assume the average is three, since any drone or spirt will usually have three passes minimum.