 Can illusionary mirrors create LOS?, tempted to try a tricky trickshot? |
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 Jan 16 2004, 06:03 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638  |
This is kind of similar to the old "invisible door" problem (if you make a door invisible, do you have LOS to anyone in the room?).
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Jan 16 2004, 06:12 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 22-June 02 From: Parts Without Member No.: 2,897 |
Oh Lordy, I don't want to be the first person to respond to this..... blast.
My 2-yen is that no, a trid phantasm mirror is not real. It will "reflect" whatever the caster wants it to reflect, not an actual image. If you're having trouble getting a LOS, devise a new spell (manipulation) called "Make Mirror" (or "Make Shiny" for the duller mages). Such a spell would transmute the properties of any matter (maybe even a volume of air--it ain't that hard to do) such that it would reflect light towards the caster as long as the spell was sustained. |
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Jan 16 2004, 06:24 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Well, I'll back you up on that one Ranger. From my understanding of illusionary magic in Shadowrun, I would say that the mage casting the 'mirror' is only making an image out of magical energy that seems to be the real thing. However, it is magic and not a mirror, so I don't think that light would reflect off of it in the conventional sense. Illusions either affect the mind or digital devices. Never once have I seen verbage that states that an illusion actually exists in the physical sense. I would say no.
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Jan 16 2004, 06:28 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 18-August 03 Member No.: 5,513 |
Basically what RangerJoe said.
If you use TridPhantasm you have to fill in all the details from your your own miniscule mage mind, including the images that you want a phantasmal mirror to reflect. Which you could do if you actually had LOS to what was being reflected but without it, you either have a mirror that doesn't reflect (interesting way to convince someone they're a vampire) or your best guess at what's around the corner which may in fact be wildly inaccurate. ;) |
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Jan 16 2004, 06:28 PM
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#5
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,035 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Anahiem, CA Member No.: 100 |
No you don't. However if you created a Manipulation spell called "Make Translucent" then I'd say that you do. |
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Jan 16 2004, 07:10 PM
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#6
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No, the mirror doesn't create LOS. Why not?
Because it's maaaaaagic... ~J |
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Jan 16 2004, 07:14 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
But do you still see what's on the other side of the door? |
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Jan 16 2004, 07:35 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
No, since you have no cognizance on what is on the other side with a spell of that type.
Make Transparent would do that, however. |
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Jan 16 2004, 07:40 PM
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#9
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
What is this?? Everyone agreeing? Fight fight fight!
Sorry, I just felt compelled to stand by what I voted for. I'd have to agree with Ranger Joe, just because he wants a "make shiny" spell. That, and the idea of a trid phantasm mirror is half a step short of casting spells through crystal balls. |
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Jan 16 2004, 07:41 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
But the description of Indirect Illusions states that they "manipulate energy"*. Electromagnetic radiation (light) is a form of energy. Creating 'real' light images would explain how a Physical Indirect Illusion (like Trid Phantasm) could fool machines as well. * Granted, the description is vague enough that it could also just mean mana energy. But since all spells (by definition) manipulate mana energy, why would the authors make a point of mentioning it again? Is it really so easy to write it off as just a redundant statement? |
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Jan 16 2004, 07:45 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
For the record, while I do personally interpret Physical Indirect Illusions as manipulating light to create visual illusions (and letting you see what's on the other side of an invisible door), I don't think they should be usable for establishing LOS either. Why? Well, as Kagetenshi put it...
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Jan 16 2004, 07:48 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
So what do you see then in your games? (Just curious) |
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Jan 16 2004, 07:50 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
Well, no one has tried to make an "invisible object" spell, so it hasn't come up with.
I'd say the mage can fill the space with whatever he imagines on the other side of the door. This includes hot elven chicks. Man, I'd better not let Buttons see this thread. |
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Jan 16 2004, 08:07 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
Huh? Why wouldn't plain old Invisibility work? AFAIK, it can be cast on things just as well as people. |
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Jan 16 2004, 08:11 PM
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#15
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
He means a Manipulation to make light actually pass through it, I believe.
~J |
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Jan 16 2004, 10:00 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 973 Joined: 3-October 03 Member No.: 5,677 |
Kind of like ruthenium except not?
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Jan 16 2004, 11:01 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
I vote no. You can use an illusionary mirror to look around a corner, but it's not actually reflecting the light, it's magically creating new light, so you can't use it to target spells. I'd treat invisible doors the same way, too. You can see "through" them, but you can't target spells through them. The spell "knows" what's on the other side of the door/reflected in the mirror via a limited form of clairvoyance.
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Jan 16 2004, 11:12 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
YAY!
It's like the Casting through invisibility thread all over again! |
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Jan 17 2004, 09:22 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
Why not just use c4 on the door and then shoot whoever's left on the other side?
Seriously though - Clairvoyance would seem like a better idea and that specifically cannot be used for casting. It would upset game balance too much IMO. |
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Jan 17 2004, 11:21 AM
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#20
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Most likely since indirect illusion spells by definition are cast around a person or over an area *basic discription / definition of indirect illusions*. That implies that actually you cannot cast the spell on single-target objects. It's either a person (single-target) or an area (area-effect) ~shrugs~ As for the invisible door or an illusionary mirror in general: No matter how you try to explain physical illusions, they still are just that: Illusions. So anything you "see", even if it's the perfect match of reality (when doors becoming invisible *if you happen to allow it regardless of the spell category's definition* or virtual mirrors "reflecting" pictures) it's still not the required LOS for spell targeting ... |
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Jan 17 2004, 03:18 PM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 75 Joined: 24-August 02 Member No.: 3,168 |
But a physical spell creates PHYSICAL changes... that's why it fools sensors, cameras etc.
So whilst a mana mirror might not cut it, a physical one should do the job. As for invisible doors... well... not wanting to kick off mega-debate, I argue you couldn't cast a spell through it although you would see what was on the other side. Reasoning for this? Well, invisibility makes it invisible, if I go invisible and stand in front of something with my back to it... I can't see it, but if you look at me you can. However, to cast a spell at it the spell would have to go through the 'invisible area' where there is a spell effect blocking the way, so you'd have to cast through my spell to hit the object. Sound convincing? As for allowing yourself to see through invisible objects, I always thought people who resisted illusion spells get the best of both worlds, ie. they know there is a spell there, and they can see it's effects, but they also know it's false and see what's really there too. |
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Jan 17 2004, 03:28 PM
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#22
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
No, it's still a physical illusion. The change occurs within the perception of the perceiver. So what you're seeing is not reality, although the picture might be a perfect copy of what you would see if you had a real mirror or if the "invisible" door wasn't there ... |
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Jan 17 2004, 03:37 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
If I creat a Physical Illusion of a M1A1 as long as people fail their tests to notice it is a spell can I run over all the gangs I see and crash into a corporate compound and shoot big holes in the walls with it's 105 mm howitzer? On the morre practical side, can I creat a Physical Illusion of a new Saab so I don't have to lay out the 250,000 :nuyen: for it, as long as I use my Physical Illusion of a sustaining focus to sustain it, it should be in my garage. Just curious, if a Illusion spell Physical or otherwise can bend light or creat mirrors to do it, then I can have my pocket M1A1, just pull out my Foci then wish for tank, then sustain. happy driving. Oh and if the cops come just stop sustaining itand no more tank.
EDIT: Can I make an Illusion of a laser burning your face off, after all I am just bending light, which is in the realm of Illusions right? So I can just Illusion your face off, and you die. |
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Jan 17 2004, 03:57 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
Why has no-one pointed out that if someone were truely invisible they would be unable to see? I thought that point always got raised in these discussions.
The spells create an illusion of invisibility - I thought the clue was in the spell category name. |
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Jan 17 2004, 04:51 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 75 Joined: 24-August 02 Member No.: 3,168 |
Hmmmm... total nonsense.
Your illusory mirror is purely that, an illusion, I didn't claim otherwise... but a physical illusion actually creates the images that you want so they can be seen by cameras et al, it is not purely in the mind as a mana illusion is. So yes, you could create a tank, or a laser, or a giant leather cock ring if that's what you're into... and you could take photos of them and send them to all your friends but you couldn't get in the tank or do me any damage with the laser, because they aren't real. |
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