Security: Licenses and SINs, A branciation from a Behind the Shadows Options

[Chrysalis]

Greets,

I was thinking about licenses and SINs, I am still unsure on how to play them. The way I play them is like this:

The Ronald Reagan Airport flashed along the display, a president who symbolized 20th century paranoia. The 21st century one was indicated through the AR display, that the threat level was cerulean and that all arrivals would go through a security check. The road had been blocked with concrete barriers and gray coloured APCs. Around the D.C. Metroplex guard swooped helicopter sized vector thrust drones with their missile racks and distended miniguns as if its was the stingers from a swarm of angry wasps.

Tyler's commlink licenses were scrutinized with excruciating detail. This was not some punk who was checking for gang affiliation but a government from a disunited UCAS, with CAS separatists, humanist policlubers, technomancers, and the Shdowrunner kind threatening its existence every day. A drone followed his movements as he navigated the serpentine road block, the sweep of a weapons lock before he was allowed to pass.

From a game mechanics side I would see the winning hand always being with security. How do fake licenses help? I mean obviously if you are at the stuffer shack and you want to buy a fag and you flash your electronic equivalent of a cardboard and stick figure photo ID drivers license that would be a License 1 and a hand wave by the GM.

However, what about airports, hospitals, and government buildings? Customs officials have special training to identify forgeries. Wouldn't this involve a similar four point system of verification (biometrics, checking the international system of SINs, interrogatory mathematical verification system, and old Mark I eyeball).

What about spells? Magecuffs have bacteria that glows when spells are to be cast. It is a simple, mostly fool-proof system. I would see the same technology incorporated in scanners in the sixth world. A little bar on the side which sets off an alarm when a mage walks through the scanner.

What about identity theft? What's to stop a character from mugging a person who is of roughly the equivalent size and gender, steal their commlink and go on an identity theft shopping spree? As technomancers are the new Al Qaeda, commlinks are rarely cranial.

[Mäx]

What about spells? Magecuffs have bacteria that glows when spells are to be cast. It is a simple, mostly fool-proof system. I would see the same technology incorporated in scanners in the sixth world. A little bar on the side which sets off an alarm when a mage walks through the scanner.

Wouldn't that only work if the mage was casting a spell while walking through the scanner?

[Chrysalis]

Wouldn't that only work if the mage was casting a spell while walking through the scanner?

Or an active spell.

[Critias]

Really, it all comes down to how important you want them to be versus how fast-and-loose an action movie sort of game you want to play. The tools are out there to make security checkpoints nigh-impossible to fool, to make building security invincible, and there are enough canon hoops to make characters jump through that you can make it really, really, tough to "make it" as a Shadowrunner.

Or, alternately, you can let them roll up an appropriate contact, pay enough nuyen for a maguffin/fake ID that will pass scanners, and just call it a day, so they can get through the checkpoint and on to whereever they need to be to get into their next gunfight.

It all depends on what sort of game you're out to play.

[Zurai]

Rules As Written, fake SINs and fake licenses are damned near useless for anything but going to the grocery store. In a scanner rating vs SIN/license rating test, straight up, with no modifiers, the scanner wins a significant amount of the time, even with a r3 scanner vs a r6 SIN. That's only 1 vs 2 "expected" hits, and don't forget that the scanner effectively wins ties thanks to the "suspicion" rules!

Frankly, the only way to make them viable is to use a house rule such as "SINs and licenses automatically win checks vs scanners of less than their rating". Even then, however, you're going to have a hellacious SIN turnover rate if you go anywhere near a decently high security area with any frequency ... like a megacorp site, a high-class area of town, etc. It's just completely mathematically unsound. It's one of the worst ideas in the book.

[kzt]

The issue I see is that they are trying to cover a huge range of verification.

At one level, you want to buy a syntha-burito at stuffer shack. Well, stuff shack doesn't really care WHO you are, they care care a lot that you have money. They might care a little bit about who you are so they can send you ads for the "new long-pig flavored syntha-burito" when you are walking near one, but they really don't care enough to put any money into it.

At the other level you are trying to get a security clearance or join the equivalent of the Mongols motorcycle gang. And they start out by getting your fingerprints and DNA, and get a list of everywhere you lived, every school you attended, every job you ever had and a list of people at each of these who can vouch for you. Then they run your biometrics and look for duplicates and pull your criminal history. Then they have people call or visit everything on your list and see what other leads turn up.

A MasterCard gift card can pass the first "ID check", but nearly all fake IDs will crash and burn on the second unless it's backed by a major national or megacorp agency. But the second is hugely expensive and time consuming.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Rules As Written, fake SINs and fake licenses are damned near useless for anything but going to the grocery store. In a scanner rating vs SIN/license rating test, straight up, with no modifiers, the scanner wins a significant amount of the time, even with a r3 scanner vs a r6 SIN. That's only 1 vs 2 "expected" hits, and don't forget that the scanner effectively wins ties thanks to the "suspicion" rules!

Frankly, the only way to make them viable is to use a house rule such as "SINs and licenses automatically win checks vs scanners of less than their rating". Even then, however, you're going to have a hellacious SIN turnover rate if you go anywhere near a decently high security area with any frequency ... like a megacorp site, a high-class area of town, etc. It's just completely mathematically unsound. It's one of the worst ideas in the book.

There are even odds that the Rating 3 Scanner will Penetrate/Not Penetrate, the Rating 3 Fake SIN...
With a Rating 5 Fake SIN, your standard Rating 3 System will generally lose, all things being equal (0 Hits vs 1 Hit on the Autosuccess rule), and don't forget that the "suspicion" of an equal test only prompts more inclusive verification... They start to ask you relevant information included on the SIN, or ask for a different source of verification (Biometric), which SHOULD be included with your SIN anyways... it is kind of counter-productive to set up a SIN that does not include your Biometric data, or a way to bypass that data with relevant scans.

At Rating 6, with a 2 to 1 dice advantage your SIN will generally always defeat the "Standard" rating 3 Scanner... At Security Levels of Equipment (rating 4-5) the Fake SIN still has the advantage at Rating 6...

Now, I will say that a Rating 1 and Rating 2 Sin are pretty useless, but you get what you pay for... I would say invest the 6k Nuyen into the Rating 6 Fake SIN...

As for the Turnover of SINS... this is exactly the case, and what I believe that the develpopers wanted to protray with the system... You need to peneetrate a Megacorp facility as one of the people authorized to enter, you gotta shell out the bucks for the access ID, and you damn well are (or should) going to Burn that ID the second that you have completed the Run... That is the whole point of the Fake SIN situation...

I cannot tell you how many Fake SIN's/Licenses that I have burned over the year or so that I have played my current character... Just part of doing business in the Shadows...

Anyway, My Two Cents

[TeOdio]

As the GM, I only "check" ID's for game critical points, and mainly for drama. It's pretty ludicrous to think the local stuffer shack is going to check your ID every time you buy some nuke it burritos, they just want your cred. Even in high security public zones most drones and scanners are mainly seeing if you have a SIN, not really running a background check on every Tomas, Ricardo, and Enrique that walks the plex. Critias is dead on with the fact that you can make it as challenging as you want. There is no "fool proof" way to defeat all ID checks every time, but even a good fast talker might be able to get around any inconsistencies with the ID. I would suggest avoiding ID checks unless the players draw attention to themselves in some way or there is a reason for the scrutiny. If Lone Star thinks they look suspicious, run their ID. If they are impersonating a sarariman to get into MCT's offices in downtown Seattle, check their ID's. If they are crossing a "hot" border, check their ID's. Otherwise, let it sliiiiiide (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .
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[TeOdio]

I cannot tell you how many Fake SIN's/Licenses that I have burned over the year or so that I have played my current character... Just part of doing business in the Shadows...

Well, you're just paranoid, that's all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, you're just paranoid, that's all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Perhaps, But I have not been "Caught" yet... ewven though you are an evil, manipulative, backstabbing, dictator of a GM...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As the GM, I only "check" ID's for game critical points, and mainly for drama. It's pretty ludicrous to think the local stuffer shack is going to check your ID every time you buy some nuke it burritos, they just want your cred. Even in high security public zones most drones and scanners are mainly seeing if you have a SIN, not really running a background check on every Tomas, Ricardo, and Enrique that walks the plex. Critias is dead on with the fact that you can make it as challenging as you want. There is no "fool proof" way to defeat all ID checks every time, but even a good fast talker might be able to get around any inconsistencies with the ID. I would suggest avoiding ID checks unless the players draw attention to themselves in some way or there is a reason for the scrutiny. If Lone Star thinks they look suspicious, run their ID. If they are impersonating a sarariman to get into MCT's offices in downtown Seattle, check their ID's. If they are crossing a "hot" border, check their ID's. Otherwise, let it sliiiiiide (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Hey... No-one would ever impersonate an MCT Sarariman to gain access to their high security facilities for any reason that I could think of... why would you want to gain the equivalent of a "Day-Job", even for a week or so, just to perform some highly-illegal run; seems kind of dangerous to me...

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[Zurai]

At Rating 6, with a 2 to 1 dice advantage your SIN will generally always defeat the "Standard" rating 3 Scanner.

Not even remotely close to being true. With 3 dice to throw, you have a 31.25% chance to get at least 2 hits.

[TeOdio]

Perhaps, But I have not been "Caught" yet... even though you are an evil, manipulative, backstabbing, dictator of a GM...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Hey, I'm just trying to foster those qualities in my players (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
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[TeOdio]

Not even remotely close to being true. With 3 dice to throw, you have a 31.25% chance to get at least 2 hits.

Sure, and what are the odds of getting at least 2 hits or more with six dice? One does not need to be a mathematician to see that 6 is bigger than 3, and generally will be reliable enough. But I agree that Ty's "always" is a bit strong as it is connotative with certainty where there is not any.
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[Zurai]

But I agree that Ty's "always" is a bit strong as it is connotative with certainty where there is not any.

That's what I was referring to. I wasn't saying that 3 dice is going to beat 6 dice most of the time -- just that it WILL tie or beat 6 dice a significant fraction of the time.

[TeOdio]

That's what I was referring to. I wasn't saying that 3 dice is going to beat 6 dice most of the time -- just that it WILL tie or beat 6 dice a significant fraction of the time.

And here I thought you were just being mean (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) .
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[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not even remotely close to being true. With 3 dice to throw, you have a 31.25% chance to get at least 2 hits.

With 6 dice that chance to beat the 3 dice is significantly better as well... do not discount the averages for 6 dice as well...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And I bend to the wisdom (becasue it does indeed happen) that ocassionally, the 3 dice will succeed over the 6 dice... just not a significant amount of the time...


And Te0dio... Paranoia keeps us alive...

[kzt]

At Rating 6, with a 2 to 1 dice advantage your SIN will generally always defeat the "Standard" rating 3 Scanner... At Security Levels of Equipment (rating 4-5) the Fake SIN still has the advantage at Rating 6...

This is the mindset behind the current rules. But it is terribly wrong.

Every time you roll the dice on your rating 3 ID you have a 1:216 chance of getting all ones. So about 99.5% of the time you do not get all ones. If you use that ID 20 time you have a significantly higher than 9% chance of a critical glitch in one or more of those tries. (Sorry, I can't remember how to do the math for a critical glitch , but all ones is clearly one of the many results that is a critical glitch)

However... (IIRC) you have about a 67% chance that any given die is a failure, so you have about a 30% chance on any given roll that you get no successes. If you use this ID 20 times you have a 0.09% chance of it not failing at least once.

With a rating 6 fake you have about a 9% chance per roll of getting no successes. Over 20 rolls you have a 16% chance that it doesn't fail at least once.

However your chance of getting all ones per roll is down to 0.002%, so your chance of getting an all ones roll at least once over 20 attempts is 0.05%. The odds of a critical glitch are significantly higher, but I can't remember how to calculate this.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is the mindset behind the current rules. But it is terribly wrong.

Every time you roll the dice on your rating 3 ID you have a 1:216 chance of a critical glitch. So about 99.5% of the time you do not critically glitch. If you use that ID 20 time you have about a 9% chance of a critical glitch in one or more of those tries.

However... (IIRC) you have about a 67% chance that any given die is a failure, so you have about a 30% chance on any given roll that you get no successes. If you use this ID 20 times you have a 0.09% chance of it not failing at least once.

With Dice probablilities, you will always have this problem, but do not forget, that the opposing verification system ALSO suffers this problem... so in the end, it is a wash...

Which is why, ideally, you are constantly changing your SIN's... and hopefully for the better ones at that...

[kzt]

The problem is that it isn't. If you fail it doesn't matter how the device did, you lose. If you succeed it starts to matter the relative success levels. And that is a lot more complex to calculate, but the numbers just get WORSE, as it is only reducing your probability of success.

[Dikotana]

You walk into a Stuffer Shack and wave your fake idea. The Stuffer Shack has no reason to care whether your ID is legitimate or not. They benefit from keeping the bums out, but a fake ID means you have money, so they'll happily sell to you either way. You're a criminal, but you can want to grab a bite too. And the same is probably true for most stores. Want clothes? The department store has very little interest in turning away your tainted nuyen.

ID checks only make sense in places where there is genuine interest in keeping the SINless out. Not the general, faceless, swarming mobs are dirty and disgusting street trash, who can be ejected by eye, but everyone who isn't entirely upright and who may have some shadiness to his character. Where is that? Likely shadowrun targets like corps, anywhere with police or military presence, and possibly the poshest of the posh establishments.

There may be more scanners around, but it does the bottom line no good for the employees to toss out paying but SINless customers out. They'll take your money and smile. Maybe they'll report you to Lone Star, but probably not; they'd rather have you come back and buy again.

[kzt]

The stuffer shack has every reason to care that when whatever you are using to pay says you have money that you really do. Other then that, they don't really care. They care a tiny bit because it means that stuffershack can't add useful data to the AR spam database, but that is typically a minor issue.

But that isn't how the rules work. It's easier to just handwave the whole thing and assume that as long as the PCs are doing whatever the GM thinks is appropriate to avoid having IDs blow the IDs are not blown. And when they obviously are blown the players do the correct thing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The problem is that it isn't. If you fail it doesn't matter how the device did, you lose. If you succeed it starts to matter the relative success levels. And that is a lot more complex to calculate, but the numbers just get WORSE, as it is only reducing your probability of success.

If you fail your roll and the verification fails it's roll, it is a wash (tie) and additional verification is called for... for verification, all you need is a single net over the system, and you are golden...

Unless, of course, I am missing something...

[kzt]

Hmm that does seem to be the case. Cleverly the game doesn't provide a mechanism to actually do the additional verification "based on the bearers history" that is supposed to result. The default in an opposed test is that on a tie the defender wins if stalemate isn't an acceptable result.