Security: Licenses and SINs, A branciation from a Behind the Shadows Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hmm that does seem to be the case. Cleverly the game doesn't provide a mechanism to actually do the additional verification "based on the bearers history" that is supposed to result. The default in an opposed test is that on a tie the defender wins if stalemate isn't an acceptable result.

I have always read it that if you tie, then you retest again... Seems to fit the fluff...

[kzt]

I have always read it that if you tie, then you retest again... Seems to fit the fluff...

No, what they should do is throw detailed questions at the character, which means the character with a new SIN every 2 days is screwed when they ask him what Junior High he graduated from and where his mother was born. The character with a stable fake ID that he doesn't burn and instead studies it can probably answer it.

Except that in SR option 2 is dumb.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, what they should do is throw detailed questions at the character, which means the character with a new SIN every 2 days is screwed when they ask him what Junior High he graduated from and where his mother was born. The character with a stable fake ID that he doesn't burn and instead studies it can probably answer it.

Except that in SR option 2 is dumb.

Agreed, but for the "rules" of interpretation, that would be resolved as either another test agains the Fake ID, or as a Judge Intentions Test vs. a Con (Possibly Fast Talking) Social Test...

It boils down to that fact that Players/GM's do not put that much into the Fake SIN process in my experience... Which is odd... I always liked putting together some background info, such as you are hinting at, to flesh out the data a little bit... Sadly, most Players/GM's don't care enough about it to put forth that kind of effort... so the Retest or Social Test is the way to handle it...

Either way works...

[Necro Sanct]

I prefer to use the following method for higher security purposes. To me such a check comes down to an item (ID) being verified using another item (computer databases). A fake ID is only useful until it is flagged at which point the player will have to pay the penalties along with getting a possible replacement ID. High security systems rely on things beyond just an ID check though so the following system only covers that aspect of it. A player best be prepared to pass any other method that may be employed.

ID rating > SIN Scan rating: Free pass
ID = SIN Scan rating: Even roll opposing test. Failure results in a 30 minute detention period per opposing test failure, max of 3 tests. Success leads to immediate release.
ID 1 < SIN Scan rating: Detained for questioning. 1 hour detention per opposing test failure. 3 opposing tests max. Success leads to immediate release.
ID 2 < SIN Scan rating: Detained for further interrogation. 1 hour detention minimum. 3 opposing tests max. Success leads to release. 3 failures results in 1 week detention +1 SIN Scan rating is added to future tests against that specific ID only.
ID 3+ < SIN Scan rating: Not good!

These methods are mostly passes with the occasional test leading to varied detention periods which may impede on some time sensitive things down the road. The more extreme types should rarely occur as long as the player owns a decent rated fake SIN. If the players are willing to take the chance against a SIN Scan in a known hot spot they must be willing to deal with the results.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I prefer to use the following method for higher security purposes. To me such a check comes down to an item (ID) being verified using another item (computer databases). A fake ID is only useful until it is flagged at which point the player will have to pay the penalties along with getting a possible replacement ID. High security systems rely on things beyond just an ID check though so the following system only covers that aspect of it. A player best be prepared to pass any other method that may be employed.

ID rating > SIN Scan rating: Free pass
ID = SIN Scan rating: Even roll opposing test. Failure results in a 30 minute detention period per opposing test failure, max of 3 tests. Success leads to immediate release.
ID 1 < SIN Scan rating: Detained for questioning. 1 hour detention period per opposing test failure, max of 3 tests. Success leads to immediate release.
ID 2 < SIN Scan rating: Detained for further interrogation. 1 hour detention period minimum. 3 opposing tests allowed. 1 week detention if all result in failure. Success leads to immediate release. +1 SIN Scan rating is added to future tests against that specific ID only.
ID 3+ < SIN Scan rating: Not good!

These methods are mostly passes with the occasional test leading to varied detention periods which may impede on some time sensitive things down the road. The more extreme types should rarely occur as long as the player owns a decent rated fake SIN. If the players are willing to take the chance against a SIN Scan in a known hot spot they must be willing to deal with the results.

If you have to have hard and fast rules, I like this...

[twilite]

I've always liked the idea of making the Fake SIN's rating a threshold for the verification system to beat. Even if you give the system 2xrating in dice, odds are very good that you will get through all right, but it is not automatic.

[kzt]

I've always liked the idea of making the Fake SIN's rating a threshold for the verification system to beat. Even if you give the system 2xrating in dice, odds are very good that you will get through all right, but it is not automatic.

It sounds possible, but I'd want to see someone do the math first before saying it was good. A lot of these don't work the way it looks to the casual observer. And I'd probably want to go to something akin to the SR3 pricing on really good fakes,

[Zurai]

I've always liked the idea of making the Fake SIN's rating a threshold for the verification system to beat. Even if you give the system 2xrating in dice, odds are very good that you will get through all right, but it is not automatic.

That actually sounds like a reasonable system. It'd need a rating+rating roll for the scanner, but that's easy to ad hoc. It at least makes rating 6 SINs live up to their 18 availability code.

[DireRadiant]

GM decides if and when to bother with SIN verification.
SIN Verification is a multi step process. If the initial test fails, then there may be subsequent checks.

I typically allow the PC to come up with whatever inventive thing they want to try for the second verification. I've had Intimidation used, the security checkpoint really didn't want to ask that troll about his mamma, bribes made, hacking on the fly, violent distractions, seductions, cons, fast talk, and all the way to the start of a really big firefight.

It's also possible for the SIN checker to skip the second verification and go straight to whatever their planned response is.

SIN checks are a tool. It's up to the GM to use them well.

[FlashbackJon]

No, what they should do is throw detailed questions at the character, which means the character with a new SIN every 2 days is screwed when they ask him what Junior High he graduated from and where his mother was born. The character with a stable fake ID that he doesn't burn and instead studies it can probably answer it.

Under the assumption that the characters actually looked at their new SIN information when they received it, I call a Memory test here.

It seems like in the business of selling fake SINs, it would just be good business sense to have common verification Q&A included with the package. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Darkeus]

GM decides if and when to bother with SIN verification.
SIN Verification is a multi step process. If the initial test fails, then there may be subsequent checks.

I typically allow the PC to come up with whatever inventive thing they want to try for the second verification. I've had Intimidation used, the security checkpoint really didn't want to ask that troll about his mamma, bribes made, hacking on the fly, violent distractions, seductions, cons, fast talk, and all the way to the start of a really big firefight.

It's also possible for the SIN checker to skip the second verification and go straight to whatever their planned response is.

SIN checks are a tool. It's up to the GM to use them well.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Use em when you want to, how you want to. The rules are there to use or ignore. Plus, I see a lot of people obsessed with the dice. Too much rolling dice. I love mechanics too but a time and place for dice rolls is always needed.

[Kerenshara]

It boils down to that fact that Players/GM's do not put that much into the Fake SIN process in my experience... Which is odd... I always liked putting together some background info, such as you are hinting at, to flesh out the data a little bit... Sadly, most Players/GM's don't care enough about it to put forth that kind of effort... so the Retest or Social Test is the way to handle it...

I can't speak for everybody of course, but I have fifteen current active IDs. Each has diferent biometrics (Including fingerprints, and as soon as I can get my hands on it, retina prints). Each has full name, citizenship, place of birth, date of birth, employer (if any), clothing styles, language, food preferences, speech mannerisms, physical mannerisms, sexual orientation preferences, comlink type (you DID get a different comlink to RUN the fake ID, right?) and OS, firearm(s) with permit(s), and basic nuclear family information and marital status. (My GM says he's thankful I'm the one keeping track of them, but my best friend just insists I'm schitzo so it's not a problem. I can role play each of them, and most people can tell who I am playing just by watching and listening.)

I think this part of the game is at the heart of what makes Shadowrun what it is, especially in 2070.

As to tests, here is what our group has essentially settled on:

Level 1 = It's a bus pass. Stuffer Shack^TM probably won't quibble.
Level 2 = Minimum casual use.
Level 3 = Sufficient to pass a police traffic stop, assuming no other suspicion from the cop.
Level 4 = Enough to legitimately buy property (a house).
Level 5 = Will pass almost all "immediate" scrutiny.
Level 6 = Potentially enough to pass a security background check, but not in person.

For "immediate" security checks, we handle it with the ID level as a threshold for the "Scanner".

For an in depth check, duration varies by level. Initiative Pass for Level 1. Minutes for Level 2. Hours for Level 3. Days for Level 4. Weeks for Level 5. Months for Level 6. (At level 6, the details and data are so in depth, it takes real people real time to comb the mountain of data to find the tiny discrepancies and put them together.) The threshold there would be level*level. All fakes can be broken eventually. But imagine a flesh and blood investigator looking into a Level 6 (6k/18F) ID, if they just SUSPECT it's false, if the person is convincing in interviews (can you say: role play? Social skills to suplement?) they might give up after a while and say it seems legit? If they KNOW it's fake, it's only a matter of time.

If you haven't read it in depth, the Runner's Companion spends a LOT of time talking about this stuff and what a fake ID really entails and involves. Level 3 and higher IDs are putting full and legitimate information into governmental databases.

Please bear in mind these are just for baseline IDs. You want a faked access card for the Sader Krupp research facility to go with that fake SiN that claims you belong there as an employee? NOW we're up to a straight-up rating to rating roll off. And when the guard raises an eyebrow, that's when those sleaze skills come in handy to glide you right past him. "Oh, I just transfered in from the Ohio facility, and Mr. Tanaka said he was SURE they would get my paperwork straightened out by the end of the week, but I'm already running late, and you know how he is, don't you?" *Dazling smile and a dice roll*

Any thoughts?

It means IDs are important to put time into, but not really to take time to DEAL with in play once you set them up and as long as you actually adhere to them. Forget you're supposed to be a meek submissive Japanese wageslave and start sassing the guard with a Southern accent... well, you get the picture.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ths is the level of detail that I have used in the past, but honestly, my current group does not worry about it as much...

[kzt]

I can't speak for everybody of course, but I have fifteen current active IDs. Each has diferent biometrics (Including fingerprints, and as soon as I can get my hands on it, retina prints). Each has full name, citizenship, place of birth, date of birth, employer (if any), clothing styles, language, food preferences, speech mannerisms, physical mannerisms, sexual orientation preferences, comlink type (you DID get a different comlink to RUN the fake ID, right?) and OS, firearm(s) with permit(s), and basic nuclear family information and marital status. (My GM says he's thankful I'm the one keeping track of them, but my best friend just insists I'm schitzo so it's not a problem. I can role play each of them, and most people can tell who I am playing just by watching and listening.)

The drawback is that if you have lots of IDs with the same biometrics is that when you get stopped at the security checkpoint at the airport your prints get run against the central data base and are going to return 15 different people. These also match your retinal patterns and also look remarkably like you. Which means you are not making the 5:15 to NYC.

[Kerenshara]

The drawback is that if you have lots of IDs with the same biometrics is that when you get stopped at the security checkpoint at the airport your prints get run against the central data base and are going to return 15 different people. These also match your retinal patterns and also look remarkably like you. Which means you are not making the 5:15 to NYC.

*sassy grin*
Now who said they all have the same biometrics?
*checks her list*
Nano palm (and finger) print adjustment, check.
Nano retinal adjusters, coming... soon.
Facial Sculpt adept power, check.
Voice Control adept power, check.
Makeover spell, check.
Fashion spell, check.
Con / Impersonation at 4 with a high Charisma, check.

The only thing that could be tricky would be DNA, and in-utero Genewipe at least means trace evidence won't lead back.

So, we've got aparent height (the diference in preceived height between posture and heel height adjustments is amazing).
We've got apparent weight (and again clothing and posture can do a lot).
We've got fingerprints.
We've got retinaprints.
We've got facial recgnition.
We've got voice print.
We've got clothes and makeup.
And we've got a silver tongue with a disarming personality.

As I said in another post: there are always other ways, omae.

My main point was that I have a tremendous amount of detail for each ID, and that my CHARACTER is prepared to BE one of those for day at a time, at need. And if you've read Runner's Companion, high rating fake IDs eventually become a reality of their own if used for long enough and with enough consistency in shopping, reading, travel and so forth. The fact that it was originally a fake doesn't mean it lacks reality. First thing a flesh and blood investigator looks for is behavior patterns. "Why hasn't Ms. Parker bought anything at all for 23 days, then suddenly surfaced 2300 km away going on a shopping spree for clothes that don't seem to be her style?" That's why it's worth paying a cartel to KEEP your IDs updated with information like that over time. THAT is a large measure of what sets a Level 4 ID from a Level 6 ID.

[Critias]

Which'd all be fine and dandy if a level 6 ID was worth that amount of trouble, hassle, and financial expenditure. By RAW, it really isn't.

But it all comes down to a game by game basis -- if that level of effort is enough for your GM, the "happy medium" where the player works at having something cool and the GM rewards them by ignoring the way the rules work a bit, more power to ya.

[Kerenshara]

*considers that for a moment*

Critias:: you have a very good point. I guess I simply wouldn't put up with a GM who didn't. By the RAW, Shadowrunners shouldn't be able to order a pizza more than about a dozen times even with the very best of IDs, which would effectively put them out of business as a group, and that just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense if it's still going to be Shadowrun.

[DireRadiant]

The drawback is that if you have lots of IDs with the same biometrics is that when you get stopped at the security checkpoint at the airport your prints get run against the central data base and are going to return 15 different people. These also match your retinal patterns and also look remarkably like you. Which means you are not making the 5:15 to NYC.

There are multiple third party SIN authentication systems, so part of the SIN checking is checking against the system the SIN is associated with. A Renraku SIN and Aztechnology SIN could contain the same biometric data, but that won't be revealed unless those two systems check against each other, and why would they? When you present your Aztech SIN, the SIN checker checks against Aztechnology SIN database.

If the players pay for it, the SIN is worth it. If you weren't getting value from it, then why would anyone buy it?

[kzt]

There are multiple third party SIN authentication systems, so part of the SIN checking is checking against the system the SIN is associated with. A Renraku SIN and Aztechnology SIN could contain the same biometric data, but that won't be revealed unless those two systems check against each other, and why would they? When you present your Aztech SIN, the SIN checker checks against Aztechnology SIN database.

You can't authenticate with an ID that can't be checked. So you can't actually buy anything (or do anything at all) using a Renraku ID that Renraku won't authenticate. You might as well have drawn it in crayon on the back of a napkin.

It works fine the first time the character shows up at Renraku. But storage space is free. So the second time they show up with a different ID they match the first ID too, if the system does a check against the back end DB.

[DireRadiant]

You can't authenticate with an ID that can't be checked. So you can't actually buy anything (or do anything at all) using a Renraku ID that Renraku won't authenticate. You might as well have drawn it in crayon on the back of a napkin.

It works fine the first time the character shows up at Renraku. But storage space is free. So the second time they show up with a different ID they match the first ID too, if the system does a check against the back end DB.

Are you then assuming there is a local reference copy of all ID information that is used for checking SINs all the time? You'd still need to authenticate the SIN for the purposes of authorizing the nuyen exchange for the fiscal account transfers? That isn't going to happen without a trusted third party authentication.

[rathmun]

Not much of a news piece, but I went and did the math.

Rating 6 fake SIN vs rating 1 authentication system.


odds of fake SIN getting no successes, (2/3)^6
odds of rating 1 authentication getting 1 success 1/3

1/3*(2/3)^6=0.0292638317

That means that using a rating 6 fake SIN to, as someone said, "Order a pizza" has a 2.9% chance of failing and leaving the SIN burned. So, continuing with their example, ordering a pizza twelve times has a 30% chance of destroying the SIN.

24 uses is where the probability of the SIN lasting that long drops below 50% (this is against rating 1 verification. natch?)

a rating 6 fake SIN has less than a 5% chance of surviving 101 rating 1 tests. (at 5/day that's less than a month)

[Kerenshara]

Not much of a news piece, but I went and did the math.

Rating 6 fake SIN vs rating 1 authentication system.


odds of fake SIN getting no successes, (2/3)^6
odds of rating 1 authentication getting 1 success 1/3

1/3*(2/3)^6=0.0292638317

That means that using a rating 6 fake SIN to, as someone said, "Order a pizza" has a 2.9% chance of failing and leaving the SIN burned. So, continuing with their example, ordering a pizza twelve times has a 30% chance of destroying the SIN.

24 uses is where the probability of the SIN lasting that long drops below 50% (this is against rating 1 verification. natch?)

a rating 6 fake SIN has less than a 5% chance of surviving 101 rating 1 tests. (at 5/day that's less than a month)

I'm the one who mentioned the Pizza, and those odds are assuming you sat at home on your couch and just ordered pizza. Every time you board a bus, take a cab, try to enter a building with security medium or higher, you're going to get checked, and the latter is not a rating 1 scanner. If Stuffer Shack is 1, serious private security is 2; Cops carry a 3 on their belt, have a 4 in their cruiser and a back 5 back at the station. Domestic airports would probably have a 4 while international airports / spaceports would be rating 6, as would a major corporate background screening. That would mean a rating 6 ID would be burned within days of day-to-day use, whereas the fluff would seem to suggest ordinary use day-to-day adds depth to an ID making it more legit to low level checks in the first place.
I don't remember enough of my old statistics courses to agree or disagree with yout math, but it seems to make sense. Probably too late to have them address this in the dead tree release of SR4A but maybe one of their little electronic books like Digital Grimoire? The fluff in the BBB and Runner's Companion both seem to suggest a rating 6 ID is darned near bulletproof. And as I mentioned above, I can see a world of diference between a basic SiN / ID and a specific corporate ID / access to a facility. There I can see the high probability of failure being more appropriate.

[Critias]

That would mean a rating 6 ID would be burned within days of day-to-day use, whereas the fluff would seem to suggest ordinary use day-to-day adds depth to an ID making it more legit to low level checks in the first place...The fluff in the BBB and Runner's Companion both seem to suggest a rating 6 ID is darned near bulletproof.

Yup.

Which is why I've long been of the opinion that it's fine for some GMs to make players jump through the hopes the RAW requires of them (if that's the sort of paranoid, always on the go, nothing last forever, this life is hard, game they want)...and just as fine with GMs that fix it with a little handwavium, and just require players invest in a solid rating 4 fake SIN or two and leave it alone (for a more casual game that focuses on different aspects of the shadows, like combat or whatever).

It's not the first time, and not the first game, in which the fluff and the numbers just don't come to the same conclusion.

[Kerenshara]

Yup.

Which is why I've long been of the opinion that it's fine for some GMs to make players jump through the hopes the RAW requires of them (if that's the sort of paranoid, always on the go, nothing last forever, this life is hard, game they want)...and just as fine with GMs that fix it with a little handwavium, and just require players invest in a solid rating 4 fake SIN or two and leave it alone (for a more casual game that focuses on different aspects of the shadows, like combat or whatever).

It's not the first time, and not the first game, in which the fluff and the numbers just don't come to the same conclusion.

*sighs sadly*
Too true, I'm afraid. I guess if you played by the RAW on IDs you probably would use the optional rules for magic / essence loss from major injury and play with the deadlier combat options, because they are all VERY gritty.

[DireRadiant]

See Making Tests

"Th e gamemaster should not
require a player to make a test when the action is something
that the character should be expected to do without difficulty."

This should apply to SIN checks as much as Pilot Groundcraft checks