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> Elves and dwarves - why doesn't everyone hate them?, Heck, I would.
SpasticTeapot
post May 10 2009, 04:39 PM
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In the world of SR4, most of the hatred seems to be oriented towards Orks and Trolls. This is understandable - they're huge, they're ugly, and the're far more fecund than their human counterparts. (In fact, unless I have the math wrong, about half of Seattle would be Orks by 2070.)

There are no shortage of reasons for small-minded people to be scared of them, but an important distinction must be made - these are all on a societal level. Elves and dwarves, on the other hand, are likely to be loathed on a very personal level for a simple reason:

They don't die.

When an elf enters the corporate structure, he's already got a leg up on his human counterparts - a greater degree of innate social ability (+2 charisma) will help him climb the social ladder. As time goes on, an elf will never fatigue from age (at least not for a long, long time), eventually reaching seniority over any human unable to afford or use leonization by virtue of not being dead. It doesn't matter if he climbs the corporate ladders slowly - he's got a good three or four human lifetimes to do it . Dwarves are almost as bad, though they don't fit in to corporate culture quite as well or live quite as long.

Because elves, dwarves, and the rare leonized human generally won't retire or die in the scope of the Shadowrun setting, positions near the top of corporations will open infrequently or not at all: it's hard to compete with someone who's older than you, in better physical and mental condition than you, and is going to be that way for decades after you die. As the decades go by, the upper eschelons of any corporation will be increasingly filled with elves, with humans relegated pretty far down the chain of command.

As such, there's probably quite a lot of hatred for elves amongst white-collar humans - enough so to create a huge amount of support for Humanis and a big market for shadowruns that create vacancies at the top.
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Ancient History
post May 10 2009, 04:57 PM
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Frankly, because they're not old enough yet. The oldest (non-Spike Baby) elf in SR is only 60 years old. Wait for them to be the majority of centurions and still working and things get touchier. We've touched on the problem with the Ancients, whose tendency for a static leadership differentiates it from other gangs and leads to some serious frustration among the younger and newer members, but life span by itself generally doesn't engender resentment in humans except over a long period of time. The average life expectancy of a human in ethnic group A is 35 years; the average life expectancy of a human in ethnic group B is 75 years. Do you hate human B for the fact that he's statistically more likely to grow older? Is that a guarantee that human B will live longer? Hell, no. He could get cancer, or a disease, or hit by a car.
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Stahlseele
post May 10 2009, 04:59 PM
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Most people LIKE Dwarves.
Because they are small.
Many short Stories and Little Jokes can be told about them.
Including minor plays on words. Miniscule things like variations of the word small.
And they more or less have a reputation of being honorable hard working people, mastercrafters.
and they have the reputation to love a good life. good food, good alcohol, good houses.

As for elves?
Yeah everybody pretty much hates them.
Because they are Racist bastards that look better than you. And they make you feel as if they WERE better than you too.


QUOTE
He could get cancer, or a disease, or hit by a car.

Yeah, accidents can and do happen . .
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LamplightSlasher
post May 10 2009, 05:00 PM
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Sounds pretty reasonable.
Unless metahuman rights haven't advanced to the point that elves and dwarves get hired equally as often.
Old school corps may resist hiring such metahumans like they would have at one time resisted hiring blacks or women.
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Stahlseele
post May 10 2009, 05:02 PM
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Why would ANYBODY resist employing dwarves?
They take up less space, they are more durable, they are stronger, they are not fugly, they tend to keep to themselves and if not are usually a bit grumpy or party people.
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LamplightSlasher
post May 10 2009, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 10 2009, 10:02 AM) *
Why would ANYBODY resist employing dwarves?
They take up less space, they are more durable, they are stronger, they are not fugly, they tend to keep to themselves and if not are usually a bit grumpy or party people.


Do you have a lot of midgets working in YOUR office? Little People, with their reputation for positive attitudes, never-give-up gumption, and cute little feet should be in everyones workplace right? Except that they can't reach the light switches, get anything from the top shelf or keep up in a foot race. I'd think that while dwarves may well fill the ranks of drudging factory workers, dwarves, like trolls, would find their size alone precludes them from most workplaces. And while they may not be UGLY, their apperance is still arguably outrageous. I assure you, if I saw a dwarf, I would have to try really hard not to stare, point and whisper.
But this all brings up another question: What are the metahuman rights? Have the civil rights movements achieved the same for elves, orks, and others as they once did for minorities and women? Would unregulated racist hiring practices keep everything but humans disenfranchised? I mean they haven't been around very long, and plenty of people would argue that 400 years later, blacks and first nations peoples are still being forced into the lower rungs of humanity.
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BlueMax
post May 10 2009, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (LamplightSlasher @ May 10 2009, 09:13 AM) *
Do you have a lot of midgets working in YOUR office? Little People, with their reputation for positive attitudes, never-give-up gumption, and cute little feet should be in everyones workplace right? Except that they can't reach the light switches, get anything from the top shelf or keep up in a foot race. I'd think that while dwarves may well fill the ranks of drudging factory workers, dwarves, like trolls, would find their size alone precludes them from most workplaces. And while they may not be UGLY, their apperance is still arguably outrageous. I assure you, if I saw a dwarf, I would have to try really hard not to stare, point and whisper.
But this all brings up another question: What are the metahuman rights? Have the civil rights movements achieved the same for elves, orks, and others as they once did for minorities and women? Would unregulated racist hiring practices keep everything but humans disenfranchised? I mean they haven't been around very long, and plenty of people would argue that 400 years later, blacks and first nations peoples are still being forced into the lower rungs of humanity.

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Dystopia
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Larme
post May 10 2009, 05:55 PM
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I don't think anyone really hates dwarves. They haven't been behind any major social problems. The problem with trogs is that they look big and scary, and many of them are -- it's not that they're inherently violent, but social prejudice has made them poor, and that has made many of them into criminals, which has made them violent, reinforcing the stereotype. Dwarves still experience prejudice and stereotyping though. People are likely to think that dwarves can fix their car, and they'll do it happily because they all love to tinker. Dwarves are likely to get hired for factory and mining work, because everyone thinks they love that stuff. They wouldn't get hired for office work, not because they're too short, but because the prejudiced humans think they just wouldn't be happy if they can't get their hands dirty. I bet some humans are shocked when they meet a dwarf for the first time, and he doesn't speak with a Scottish accent, or carry a battle axe...

As for elves, humans might hate them more if they didn't hate each other so much. As has been pointed out, other elves are quite angry with the fact that their elders never die off and allow them to move up the ladder. It's true that elves think they're better than humans, but most of them probably think they're better than all the other elves, too. In fact, many elves might be nicer to humans than to other elves. It's easy to play nice with someone when they know you're more attractice and graceful than them. For humans, that's a fact that they can't dispute. Being mad an an elf for being pretty is like being mad at a celebrity for being pretty -- it makes no sense, they were just born with it and you weren't, and you can't change that. Many humans probably accept it pretty easily, just like they accept how pro athletes are stronger than them and celebrities are more famous than them. It's s a lot harder for elves to play nice with another elf though, someone who has all the same grace and charm, wants to take what they have, and can probably do it. The fact is, most humans who actually know elves will be pretty cool with them, because of how charismatic and attractive they are. That's how come we have elf posers. I don't think the facts bear out that people would be prejudiced against anyone who's better than them -- just look at Hollywood. These people are richer and more attractive than any of us will ever be, often by accident of birth, yet the vast majority of us would fall all over ourselves to touch them. Their superiority, in most of us, generates adoration, not hatred. Some people hate celebrities, just like some people would hate elves. But it wouldn't be the most common outlook.

The issue with seniority in corporations also probably wouldn't come up that much, since elves are such a small minority. And while humans might have to deal with elves living much longer than them, the elves would have to deal with entrenched power structures that regard metahumans suspiciously. Unless an elf can demonstrate his absolute loyalty to the governing interests of the corporation, he'd never be allowed to rise beyond a certain point. An elf might have a longer life, but he also has to prove himself all the harder because those who currently own the corp fear him plotting to take it over more than they do their human employees. Someone with more inherent ability and longer life is harder to control, and if there's on instinct that drives the ownership interests in a megacorp, it's the drive to retain control. And don't forget, even though elves are more charismatic than humans, they are not by nature smarter or stronger willed. Many humans are likely to outmatch many elves in the game of corporate powerplay. Because humans have a shorter time to achieve, they work that much harder -- elves take a longer view, but having a longer view doesn't automatically make them into unstoppable geniuses. An elf might move more slowly in situations that call for speed, he might miss opportunities based on the fact that he has no pressing need to seize them at any particular moment. He might work less hard to improve himself because there's no rush. Long life doesn't automatically translate to superiority, and might even work against it. Elves trying to compete with humans might find that they just don't care as much, and it's easier for them to go live with their own kind who operate at a much less stressful pace.
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DoomFrog
post May 10 2009, 07:18 PM
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The age thing is kind of not relevant because of the tech level. If you look in Augmentation there are game rules for Age Rejuvenation. In the 40 years it will take elvian long life to become a major social issue, the medical procedures for Leonization will be much cheaper, that or it will be common practice for banks to loan money to pay for the procedure.... how is it not a good investment to loan someone the money to pay to be able to work for another 40-50 years.
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HappyDaze
post May 10 2009, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE
It's true that elves think they're better than humans

This doesn't appear in my SR4A section on elves. Perhaps you're just showing bias.
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kzt
post May 10 2009, 08:29 PM
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QUOTE (Larme @ May 10 2009, 11:55 AM) *
The issue with seniority in corporations also probably wouldn't come up that much, since elves are such a small minority.

They are not THAT small a minority. What percentage of General Electric's 320,000 employees has the word "Chief", "Chairman" or "President" in their title? Way less than 1%. Maybe 0.1% if you count the divisions in addition to just corporate.
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GreyBrother
post May 10 2009, 08:42 PM
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I don't hate elves per se. Just the immortal ones and those elves with the "My, am i not better than you short lived lowly human being?", but outside the Tirs, how many think like that or actually show that attitude?
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BlueMax
post May 10 2009, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (HappyDaze @ May 10 2009, 12:57 PM) *
This doesn't appear in my SR4A section on elves. Perhaps you're just showing bias.


That is because the elves have taken over printing and other arrangements.
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Stahlseele
post May 10 2009, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE (GreyBrother @ May 10 2009, 10:42 PM) *
I don't hate elves per se. Just the immortal ones and those elves with the "My, am i not better than you short lived lowly human being?", but outside the Tirs, how many think like that or actually show that attitude?

The Ancients for example.
The Wakyambi? Isn't that another Elf-Only-Country?
And in the Allied German States there's Pomorya . .
And then there's basically every single elf ever played or written.
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HappyDaze
post May 10 2009, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE
Just the immortal ones and those elves

Immortal elves can't really be called elves anymore than drakes can still be properly called metahuman.
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GreyBrother
post May 11 2009, 05:24 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 10 2009, 11:17 PM) *
The Ancients for example.
The Wakyambi? Isn't that another Elf-Only-Country?
And in the Allied German States there's Pomorya . .
And then there's basically every single elf ever played or written.

*shrugs* An Elven only gang? So what? There are Troll and Ork only gangs.

Wakyambi are a race, not a country.

Pomorya... i can ignore it. Just bad Fanfic, and thats about it.

You are just biased, so your last comment is irrelevant too in this question. Anything useful?
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HappyDaze
post May 11 2009, 05:47 AM
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QUOTE
Wakyambi are a race, not a country.

IIRC, one of the old SR novels did have an elf-dominant African nation. Azania, perhaps?
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The Jake
post May 11 2009, 05:58 AM
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I love dwarves personally.

- J.
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BlueMax
post May 11 2009, 06:08 AM
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Great, just great.

Now I have Soft Cell playing on repeat in my head.

BlueMax
/dang you all
// Dang you all to heck
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Doc Byte
post May 11 2009, 08:25 AM
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QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ May 10 2009, 06:39 PM) *
Because elves, dwarves, and the rare leonized human generally won't retire or die in the scope of the Shadowrun setting, positions near the top of corporations will open infrequently or not at all:


Poor SK employees. If an elf or dwarf's bad, what about a damn dragon? Still they voted Dunkelzahn for president.
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HappyDaze
post May 11 2009, 08:32 AM
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That dragon oly holds a single position. There's still plenty of sweet spots for talented metahumans in SK. Of course, "on the menu" is one of them...
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GreyBrother
post May 11 2009, 09:09 AM
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QUOTE (HappyDaze @ May 11 2009, 07:47 AM) *
IIRC, one of the old SR novels did have an elf-dominant African nation. Azania, perhaps?

Perhaps. I have to say i don't know. A check on Sixth World Wiki just brought this up
QUOTE
Legends states that the Wakyambi are descendants of the sky people, who exist in the myths of some African cultures. Therefore Wakyambis enjoy in their homeland a good reputation and many privileges.
If someone wants to rage about that.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)
I just can't stand that "All elves are played as arrogant nature loving assholes" babble Stahlseele is famous for. Nothing against you, but cut it out. Are we frickin roleplayers or humanis trainees?
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Stahlseele
post May 11 2009, 09:19 AM
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Depends.
Ever played a Humanis trainee? *snickers*
Personally, i hope i get to be a Troll ^^
I have the experience from trolling people/boards on teh intarwebs *grins*
and i can't really help it.- Elves just rub me the wrong way somehow <.< . .
I'd prefer Ghouls as Team-Members over elves for petes sake x.x . .

And yes, that part with the Wakyambi was my mistake, i had thought they had their own nation in Africa.
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ElFenrir
post May 11 2009, 10:00 AM
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I never understood the elven stereotypes as well. It even said in black and white there can be poor and ugly elves, too. I mean, think about how THEY must feel. I dunno why all elves are potrayed as instantly drop-dead gorgeous. (Okay, so my elven sam is a good-looking guy. But so is my friend's human. And I've seen handsome orks and trolls played as well. There is nothing in the book that hard-wires one race into being ''ALL pretty automatically'' or ''ALL ugly automatically.'' Orks and trolls, due to their tusks, tend to get shuffled into the ugly pile but I don't see why some can't express a little different than others.)

Anyhow, I don't have a problem with any of the races, but I admit the random ''elf hatred'' does bug me, simply because there is NO point to it. (For the record, random dwarf, ork, and troll hatred bothers me too, but they aren't as vocal.)

The only thing why I can try to explain why elf/dwarf haters seem more vocal is:

-They somehow feel bad, inside, for orks and trolls, since picking on them seems like picking on real-life minorities, and it hits a bit too close to home for them.
-Elves and Dwarves have had the whole time in fantasy worlds, and have longer-time exposure, thus more time for folks to build up pointless hate toward the fantasy races.
-Whenever a race is seen as being good-looking, it seems to be habit that folks kinda sometimes shy away from them, due to the real life views of Hollywood starlets and the like. This could partially be due to peer pressure.
-Orks have the best BP ratio. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I mean, I could be totally off with things, but this is a stab.

Funny thing is, I know some folks who are, say, prejudiced against Elves because ''eh, they're all pretty and full of themselves'', then they will turn around and make a Troll with 15,000 nuyen of cosmetic surgery turning him into the 8 foot tall Adonis, and this is ''okay'' since ''he's not an elf.'' I mean, there is nothing wrong with wanting to play a character that looks good, but why pick on a race for looking good when you enjoy playing good looking characters? And again, remember, all elves automatically do not look good.



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GreyBrother
post May 11 2009, 10:30 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 11 2009, 11:19 AM) *
Ever played a Humanis trainee? *snickers*

Something similar. And theres a difference between being and playing something.
No go back to work, ya slacker! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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