shadowrun 3rd ed Options

[TeOdio]

Having run all 4 editions, I really like 4th Ed a lot. I pretty much ran 3rd ed for the whole cycle it was out, and while I had no problems with it as a system per say, it was waaaay more complicated than a game system needed to be. Us die-hards and SR-Wonks had a great time with third ed. Also I did my best to allow "riggers" and "deckers" get incorporated into the mix, but I have seen a lot of games where the GM just wouldn't allow them because of the head aches they induced. 4th Ed, while still complicated when held against some other systems, is way more newb friendly. I have had just as easy a time running it for new players at Con's as I have running every week for my regular group. Like some of the posters have mentioned, if you are in a 3rd Ed campaign w/ characters you love and a system that works for you, don't change it. A LOT of the info in 4th ed books can be reworked for 3rd Ed rules. As far as breakability of the system, I'll be diplomatic and say this. All systems can be "broken". The more options you give a player, the more they are going to try and stack together for "x" reason. If I had the "Pornomancer" in my group, I would be OK with that as long as the player didn't try to ram their "Specialty" through every situation at the expense of my other players and my fun. Some folks just like gargantuan dice pools, like my wife likes gargant... sorry. Anyway, if the "player" becomes a problem because they see the game as a zero sum competition where the biggest pool wins, I would encourage them to take up Miniature War Gaming or Magic the Gathering instead of Shadowrun.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I think the Pornomancer breakdown goes something like this.

Elf

Exceptional Attribute CHA
Aptitude Con
SURGE I
--Metagenic Improvement: CHA
--Some disadvantage

Con 7 (Seduction +2)

Emotitoy 6
Tailored Pheromones 3
Genetic Optimization (CHA)

Hm... that's 32 of the maximum +42 you can get with that. Anyone else have a version under SR4A rules?

[Lindt]

Pretty much just Sr3; with some input from the Sr3r stuff from here a while back, and adaptions of sr4 tech. Its hard to do much else when my group is spread across 4 states, 3 time zones, and 2 continents.

I on the other hand want to go back to Gencon and run games for the con team, and need to know the sr4 rules. Blarg. And now (Im assuming) the sr4a rules. Double blarg.

Cain: I respect your opinion. But I think your wrong. Untill I started playing a game on the boards here, I never got much beyond the fundamentals of the system and chargen.
Chargen was infact the first big turn off for me. Great, I get 400 points! Oh wait, these are all 10 points each, and these are 4, and this last one is 25? I thought this was meant to be EASIER, with less math.

You could make a pretty crazy social adept under sr3. Lets not forget that. 14 dice with a tn of 2 and a series of ways to increase the opposing TN makes for a respectable pornomancer.

[Medicineman]

@Cain
the Pornomancer and the 40D Climbing Troll are the Tip of the Iceberg that show how the system can be broken ,but it's the same as with Cochise's One-Trick-Pony
a SR3 Ki-Ad Dwarf that had 30 Dice in close Combat (and that without the Combat Pool (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )
Both Systems can be brocken if the Player wants to
But the SR4(especially 4A) tries to stop it more effectively than SR3
after Playing SR3 for 7+ Years I started to hate it more and more,because of the Character limitations (Shamans have to be like that,Mages can only be like this,Riggers can not be Deckers,Deckers can't Rig (without sacrificing lots of Essence)
Add-On Rules that contradicted itself (Chemtech vs Armor anyone) a lot of bad Rules (Light Pistol Damage anyone)
Difficult Matrix Rules .I like to go to German RPG Conventions for more than 15 Years and I often found,that SR3 Gamemasters didn't want any Deckers in their Sessions,cause they didn't know or didn't like the Rules.That changed with SR4 ! now you can inter.....mix Hackers with Mages and Mundane Chars, no Problem (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
So...No I'm not playing SR3 anymore and I won't come back !

Hough !
Medicineman

[aftershock]

Well that was interisting just so you all know i wasn't trying to compare D&D to shadowrun it's just that i've seen a lot of players change to a new version of a game and not able to say why which i think is a bit sad .
I wanted to know if there was much interest in shadowrun 3rd ed as i'm having a lot of trouble findding any thing on the web thats not geared for 4th ed and i've just started a new game and was looking for something to help me out any of you know of any other good fan based sites that might be able to help ?

[Lordmalachdrim]

Two that are still up and running (even if they might be SR 2, which is close enough for easy mixing)

http://www.intercom.net/user/logan1/bkk.htm#top
http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/

[Larme]

Well that was interisting just so you all know i wasn't trying to compare D&D to shadowrun it's just that i've seen a lot of players change to a new version of a game and not able to say why which i think is a bit sad .
I wanted to know if there was much interest in shadowrun 3rd ed as i'm having a lot of trouble findding any thing on the web thats not geared for 4th ed and i've just started a new game and was looking for something to help me out any of you know of any other good fan based sites that might be able to help ?

You sir, want Shadowrun Denver. It's an online MUX with an active playerbase and staff. It's got a few loopy house rules, and the +nom system (nominations for karma awards based on roleplaying with other people) allows you to become an epic winnar just by hanging around in bars and clubs and talking to people. But it's definitely SR3, and there are probably plenty of people online that could answer your questions about 3rd ed. Hell, I could probably answer a lot of 3rd ed questions myself, as could many people on this forum.

For everyone who wants to play SR4 and doesn't have a local group (or even if you have a local group but can't get enough), there's Shadowrun Seattle, which just opened to the public, though it's still in the Alpha stage. http://www.newseattle.org/

[Larme]

No offense, but are you kidding?

To clarify, I wasn't trying to claim that SR4's system was unbreakable. The primary difference is that it forces you to make a lot more choices. In SR3, you can be awesome at everything you do coming right out of chargen, as in the top of your game, as in no reason to earn karma or cash except to grow your karma pool. In SR4, you can be over the top if you specialize, but if you do that, you're only going to have a narrow set of skills, you won't be nearly as uber. SR4 has fewer no-brainers, and resources overall are scarcer. You must choose between being a generalist and sucking, or specializing and being limited. In SR3, I routinely made generalist characters who had no weaknesses at all. That's simply not possible in SR4. That's why I think SR4 works better in terms of chargen.

Chargen is hardly more limited in SR4, simply because it is a points-based system, and a high number of points at that. Point-buy under SR3 was restricted to 123 points. With 400 points to play with, you actually have fewer limits; you can fiddle and tweak a great deal more. Basic game design principle: the more points you have, the less limited your character becomes.

I don't think this argument holds any water at all. Point buy in SR3 produced characters roughly equivalent to what you'd get with Priority system, just with more options. Comparing 123 points to 400 points is incredibly misleading, as IIRC, in SR3, attribute points cost 2 BP, and skill points cost 1 BP. A million yen, I remember for sure, cost only 30 BP -- that's 4x the money (without controlling for deflation, but I know the currency in SR4 deflated a lot less than 400%) for 60% as many points. I dunno if you're being deceptive to score rhetoric points, or what, but this argument is honestly a real head scratcher.

Yes, but getting that dice pool of 20 was much more difficult. You rolled skill alone, plus whatever Combat Pool you had available. Gaining bonus dice was not as easy as it is in SR4, since attributes had only a soft link to skills. And while you could use Combat Pool, it was an expendable resource; meaning, you could run out easily.

I'll argue that SR3 was much more unpredictable, largely due to the floating TN mechanic. You could never quite know if it was better to have a large dice pool, or a smaller one with more TN modifiers. OTOH, the probability distribution for SR4 is ludicrously simple: Dice Pool / 3 = Expected Successes.

SR3 was not unpredictable, you had all the modifiers for combat in a nice little table, just like you do for SR4. If you manipulate the situation, making sure that you plan your attack when there's good visibility, you can easily grab yourself some TN2's and insta-kill everyone with a light pistol. I suppose if you blunder through everything without taking account of what your modifiers are likely to be, then it's wildly unpredictable. But the system itself is pretty transparent to someone who's paying attention.

SR4 isn't that unpredictable either -- again, you have all the modifiers known before-hand, and you can extrapolate likely successes based on your number of dice. Though to be sure, people's experience with the system makes it look very unpredictable. I've seen people roll 25 dice and get 2 hits, and the other night I rolled 5 edge dice and got 6 hits. The unpredictability of SR4 is based on the probability indpendence of dice. We say "3 dice = 1 hit" as a sort of short-hand to make educated guesses about what we're likely to roll. But actually, each die is a 1/3 chance to hit independent of any other die, which means that the actual incidence of hits is hard to predict. It's a lot easier to predict SR3 when you have a low TN, simply because every die is more likely to roll a 2+ than it is to roll a 5+.

I'm not sure what you mean by choosing between a high pool with more modifiers, or a lower pool with less modifiers. Since when did you have to make that kind of choice? You can lower your TN and have a high dice pool, they are not mutually exclusive... But even if they were, it's not some kind of unpredictable mathematical quandary. Just add up the theoretical probability. Do I want 9 dice with TN3, or 6 dice with TN2? Well, 9 * .66 = 5.94; 6 * .83 = 4.98. That's some easy math you can do with a calculator, and it very quickly and succinctly tells you what the optimal dice pool/TN balance would be, in theory.

EDIT: Fixed math, got it backwards :x

That's good, and I'm glad you're having fun. But don't let the fact that you're having fun blind you to the fact that SR4 is an easily breakable system. Yes, SR3 is just as breakable, but that doesn't make SR4 into a perfect system by any stretch of the imagination.

What a good-looking straw man. Quote me the passage where someone claimed that SR4 was a perfect system. If you can find it, then I'll concede this point. But as far as I know, we're talking about which one we like best, not which one is perfect.

[10gauge]

We used to play SR3 for over 4 years and skipped to SR4 a few month ago. Although I loved SR3, I have to admit that SR4 "feels" less complicated in many ways. I like the way magic is presented now. I also like the attrribute+skill tests and the new DV/AP system.

[Cain]

Cain: I respect your opinion. But I think your wrong. Untill I started playing a game on the boards here, I never got much beyond the fundamentals of the system and chargen.
Chargen was infact the first big turn off for me. Great, I get 400 points! Oh wait, these are all 10 points each, and these are 4, and this last one is 25? I thought this was meant to be EASIER, with less math.

???

For the record, I never claimed that SR4 chargen was easier than SR3. In fact, comparing BP's to Priorities, regardless of system, there's no contest as to which is faster, simpler, and easier to use. Priorities wins, hands down. BP's are way too fiddly, IMO.

To clarify, I wasn't trying to claim that SR4's system was unbreakable. The primary difference is that it forces you to make a lot more choices. In SR3, you can be awesome at everything you do coming right out of chargen, as in the top of your game, as in no reason to earn karma or cash except to grow your karma pool.

First of all, the lack of skill and attribute caps meant that no matter how good you were, there was always someone better. There was no glass ceiling, preventing further advancement, so there was *always* reasons to earn karma and cash to improve your stats.

I also challenge you to create a character in SR3 that is "awesome at everything". Generalists will still be outstripped by specialists, even if it's easier to buy up skills.

In SR4, you can be over the top if you specialize, but if you do that, you're only going to have a narrow set of skills, you won't be nearly as uber.

This is untrue. Look at some of the power builds floating around Dumpshock. You'll see that a lot of them have a full range of skills and abilities. I am not allowed to post my gamebreaker character, but I'm sure other people here can take up the challenge.

I don't think this argument holds any water at all. Point buy in SR3 produced characters roughly equivalent to what you'd get with Priority system, just with more options. Comparing 123 points to 400 points is incredibly misleading, as IIRC, in SR3, attribute points cost 2 BP, and skill points cost 1 BP. A million yen, I remember for sure, cost only 30 BP -- that's 4x the money (without controlling for deflation, but I know the currency in SR4 deflated a lot less than 400%) for 60% as many points. I dunno if you're being deceptive to score rhetoric points, or what, but this argument is honestly a real head scratcher.

We could really get into it over this one, so I'm going to use other games as examples, to head off a flame war.

In Savage Worlds, you have 5 points for attributes and 15 for skills. Character creation is quick and easy, often taking less than 15 minutes, including buying gear. GURPS and HERO both give you 100-150 common pool points to mess around with, and character creation takes hours. Serenity gives you, IIRC, between 38-45 points, and chargen usually takes 90 min or less.

The more points you're dealing with, the more complicated the system becomes, and the fiddlier things get. If SR4 had gone with a 100-BP base system, things would be a lot less complicated.

[BlueMax]

Don't forget First Ed's method: Priority.

And not the gimped to make lousy characters who don't get enough skill groups, version from RC.

I don't think they take Priority Characters at Missions, so Priority is essentially "far out there".

BlueMax
/10 points
//ABCDE
/// I miss those days.
//// A for Meta dangit.

[Larme]

First of all, the lack of skill and attribute caps meant that no matter how good you were, there was always someone better. There was no glass ceiling, preventing further advancement, so there was *always* reasons to earn karma and cash to improve your stats.

I hear what you're saying. What I meant, though, is that you start out so good at your specialty areas that increasing them isn't very meaningful. You're never going to need more dice than what you start with, unless you end up going on epic runs that would make canon characters wee themselves.

I also challenge you to create a character in SR3 that is "awesome at everything". Generalists will still be outstripped by specialists, even if it's easier to buy up skills.

I already outlined by build who had 8 or 6 in every single stat, with 6-8 dice for guns, unarmed combat, stealth, athletics, AND social skills. You can't make anyone that powerful and versatile in SR4. You can make them versatile OR powerful in SR4. That's the choice you have in SR4, which doesn't exist to the same extent in SR3.

This is untrue. Look at some of the power builds floating around Dumpshock. You'll see that a lot of them have a full range of skills and abilities. I am not allowed to post my gamebreaker character, but I'm sure other people here can take up the challenge.

The "full range" that you can get in SR4 is far below the full range you'd get at SR3. Like I said, my SR3 generalist would typically have 6-8 dice in everything that mattered, mind you in a system where 6-8 dice is the best of the best. 6-8 dice in SR3 is equivalent to 12+ dice in SR4, and you're not going to get anyone with that level of all around power in SR4 coming out of chargen.

If you're talking about Mr. Lucky, he's really not unique to SR4. You can't build him straight out of chargen, but in SR3, after you play long enough EVERY character is Mr. Lucky. And if you play them longer than that, they become Mr. Demigod. The level of Mr. Lucky you can achieve in SR3 is actually unlimited, even though it might take you a long time to achieve. Edge, at least, has a hard cap.

We could really get into it over this one, so I'm going to use other games as examples, to head off a flame war.

In Savage Worlds, you have 5 points for attributes and 15 for skills. Character creation is quick and easy, often taking less than 15 minutes, including buying gear. GURPS and HERO both give you 100-150 common pool points to mess around with, and character creation takes hours. Serenity gives you, IIRC, between 38-45 points, and chargen usually takes 90 min or less.

The more points you're dealing with, the more complicated the system becomes, and the fiddlier things get. If SR4 had gone with a 100-BP base system, things would be a lot less complicated.

Umm... I don't see your point. Are you saying that increased complexity makes it easier to break? If so, it's neither her nor there. Even if the complexity makes it easier to break, it's still harder to break than SR3, because SR3 characters start out on a higher plane of power, plain and simple. Maybe your definition of breaking the system doesn't mean being godly powerful though, maybe you mean something else, like creating a sheet that the devs didn't anticipate. I don't know. We should drop ambiguous terms like "break the system," because honestly we could spend days arguing over what it means. What I'm saying, irrespective of words like "break," is that SR3 characters are a lot stronger, and I like how SR4 characters are not as strong. I'm saying that your resources in SR4 take you less far than they did in SR3. You can still make uber characters, but the ultimate generalist build is closed off. Remember, in SR3, a combination of ware and BP could easily start a sammy with a 6 or an 8 in every single attribute, and a 6 or 8 in every skill that mattered. You can't come close to that in SR4 (keeping in mind, again, that 6-8 in SR3 = 12+ in SR4). That's why I prefer SR4. You have to make choices, there are fewer no-brainers. I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm only saying that it requires you to make more hard choices than SR3 did.

[Stahlseele]

I am not allowed to post my gamebreaker character

why not?
PM me if you don't mind?
I don't even play SR4, i just like to see those builds ^^

And it WAS possible to break SR3 in Character Creation too . .
There's ways to create Characters in SR3, that roll 30 Dice on one Single Skill straight out of Character Generation . .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'll refer you to Glyph on this one, since he's the one who made it. However, the pornomancer is indeed a legal starting character. If you do a search on it, you'll see the BP and/or Karmagen breakdown for yourself. It's also surprisingly well-rounded, and could function as a viable character.

Chargen is hardly more limited in SR4, simply because it is a points-based system, and a high number of points at that. Point-buy under SR3 was restricted to 123 points. With 400 points to play with, you actually have fewer limits; you can fiddle and tweak a great deal more. Basic game design principle: the more points you have, the less limited your character becomes.


Yes, but getting that dice pool of 20 was much more difficult. You rolled skill alone, plus whatever Combat Pool you had available. Gaining bonus dice was not as easy as it is in SR4, since attributes had only a soft link to skills. And while you could use Combat Pool, it was an expendable resource; meaning, you could run out easily.


I'll argue that SR3 was much more unpredictable, largely due to the floating TN mechanic. You could never quite know if it was better to have a large dice pool, or a smaller one with more TN modifiers. OTOH, the probability distribution for SR4 is ludicrously simple: Dice Pool / 3 = Expected Successes.


That's good, and I'm glad you're having fun. But don't let the fact that you're having fun blind you to the fact that SR4 is an easily breakable system. Yes, SR3 is just as breakable, but that doesn't make SR4 into a perfect system by any stretch of the imagination.

Edit: I couldn't sleep, and did the search for you. You can see the 750 Karma Pornomancer build Here. A 400 BP version of the Pornomancer can be found on that same page, who only has 46 dice. Both these builds are pre-SR4.5, so some variations may be in order.

Yep... Sure enough, 750 Karmagen...
My Bad...

Several of those bonuses are GM Discretion or optional (Vocal Range Enhancer, Minor Biosculpting), but I just do not see the appeal of such characters... But I was wrong, definitely doable at character creation...

What do ya know...

[Stahlseele]

Don't forget about the Troll with 40 - 45 Dice in Climbing. Able to scale every building in 5 Minutes tops and even on a critical glitch of all 1's he won't be falling down.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

So just for dreks and giggles, I redid the 400 BP pornomancer to bring her into the Runner's Compendium/SR4A era.

Surprisingly, she makes 40 dice even with the rule changes. Also, depending on whether or not you think that a specialization is a dice pool modifier, she may even have 42.

Note that her total dice pool mods, not counting the specialization, come out to 22. This is in case you want to drug her up on NovaCoke and eX, which will bring her CHA to 12 and let you use them for a total of 44 dice, or 46 if the specialization isn't a dice pool mod.

[ Spoiler ]

Pornomancer
Race: Elf

BREAKDOWN (400 Points)
Core Attributes: 165
Special Attributes: 60
Race: 30
Active Skills: 90
Qualities: 25 net
Contacts: 6
Resources: 24

=Attributes=
20 -- Body: 3
20 -- Agility: 3
20 -- Reaction: 3
00 -- Strength: 1
65 -- Charisma: 10
10 -- Intuition: 2
10 -- Logic: 2
20 -- Willpower: 3
30 -- Magic: 4(3)
40 -- Edge: 5

Essence: 5.0

=Qualities=
05 -- Adept
10 -- Aptitude (Con)
05 -- Mentor Spirit (Seductress)
15 -- SURGE III
--Glamour
--Metagenic Improvement (CHA)
--Thermosense Organ
--Sensitive System
---------------
05 -- Nano Intolerance
05 -- Poor Self-Control (Thrill-Seeker)
10 -- Records on File

=Active Skills=
34 -- Con (Seduction): 7 (+2)
18 -- Gymnastics (Dance): 4 (+2)
08 -- Etiquette: 2
12 -- Negotiation: 3
08 -- Perception: 2
10 -- Pistols/Semi-Automatic: 2 (+2)

=Knowledge Skills=
English: N
Sperethiel: 4
--------------
Acting: 4
Local Area Knowledge: 4

=Bioware=
0.0E/02000 -- Biosculpting, Minor
0.1E/15000 -- Enhanced Pheromone Receptors 3
0.2E/45000 -- Genetic Optimization (CHA)
0.6E/45000 -- Tailored Pheromones 3
0.1E/12000 -- Vocal Range Enhancer

=Adept Abilities=
0.50 -- Enthralling Performance/Dance
0.75 -- Improved Ability (Con) 3
1.50 -- Kinesics 3

=Contacts=
06 -- Fixer (4 Connection/2 Loyalty)

=Lifestyle and Gear=
Stationary emotitoy (Rating: 6)
10,400 Nuyen left to spend on Lifestyles and Gear.

[Dikotana]

SR3.
Like what has been done with SR4 setting and the streamlining but I dont have time to bring half the group up to speed or distruction test the system. The real game breaker is we're currently happy with the campaign characters per SR3, to much effort and jarring of feel to change and tweak every NPC, valued experence vehicle and the entire game world.

Still buying SR4 though, as a gold mine of great background and system flourshes to dribble in as time marches on in game and I just enjoy the concepts.

SR3 though is the old devil you know and for me, a system is just one tool in the tool box. My group have crafted our use of SR3 to our purpose.

Yes, what he said. I play SR3 exclusively. The system is breakable and we all know it, so we just have a tacit agreement either to not break it or to all break it together depending on the game. I like 4E, but to be honest the absurd complexities of SR3 are part of the fun for me.

The switch from SR3 to SR4 is the biggest system change for a new edition yet, but D&D 3 to D&D 4 was bigger. And coincidentally I'm also still playing D&D 3E. (Well, modified OGL-based things, but with roughly that ruleset.)

[Cain]

I hear what you're saying. What I meant, though, is that you start out so good at your specialty areas that increasing them isn't very meaningful. You're never going to need more dice than what you start with, unless you end up going on epic runs that would make canon characters wee themselves.

That happens quite easily in SR4. Exceptional Attribute + Aptitude = No improvement possible. Sure, there's tricks like geneware and SURGE; but the point is, you can easily start out with a dice pool at the absolute maximum. You can't increase it at all.

I already outlined by build who had 8 or 6 in every single stat, with 6-8 dice for guns, unarmed combat, stealth, athletics, AND social skills. You can't make anyone that powerful and versatile in SR4. You can make them versatile OR powerful in SR4. That's the choice you have in SR4, which doesn't exist to the same extent in SR3.

Outlining it is not the same as posting it. I'd like to see a breakdown, especially under Priority.

Umm... I don't see your point. Are you saying that increased complexity makes it easier to break? If so, it's neither her nor there. Even if the complexity makes it easier to break, it's still harder to break than SR3, because SR3 characters start out on a higher plane of power, plain and simple. Maybe your definition of breaking the system doesn't mean being godly powerful though, maybe you mean something else, like creating a sheet that the devs didn't anticipate. I don't know. We should drop ambiguous terms like "break the system," because honestly we could spend days arguing over what it means.

All right, let's call it "Power inequity". A game is broken when one character can completely dominate the others. By making everyone more powerful, it was actually harder to create an inequity in SR3. Under SR4, however, it is dead easy to create characters of unequal power levels. Just compare one of the BBB archetypes to the Pornomancer, for one example. He can completely dominate the archetypes in one area, and beat or match them in others.

Now, lest people think I'm SR4 bashing, this was also possible in SR3. Using Sum-to-Ten or Points, you could create some hugely powerful characters, who frequently dominated the others. But the difference wasn't as great. It's easier to create a useless character in SR4. That makes the power difference even more stark.

Yep... Sure enough, 750 Karmagen...
My Bad...

Hey, no worries. The first time I saw the Pornomancer, I didn't believe it either.

[Darkeus]

Well, that Pornomancer looks like it could not take a blind street samurai. Seriously, look at the other stats it does not have.. No Dodge skill, average pistol skill.. All I need is one pissed off street samurai with a high powered rifle. You need to be close to somebody to seduce somebody. You can't seduce a sniper bullet.

Plus forget those emotitoy things.. That is the crappiest piece of Shadowrun tech I have ever seen. It is so banned from my 4th ed games..

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, that Pornomancer looks like it could not take a blind street samurai. Seriously, look at the other stats it does not have.. No Dodge skill, average pistol skill.. All I need is one pissed off street samurai with a high powered rifle. You need to be close to somebody to seduce somebody. You can't seduce a sniper bullet.

Plus forget those emotitoy things.. That is the crappiest piece of Shadowrun tech I have ever seen. It is so banned from my 4th ed games..

There is that of Course...
But to be fair, Killing a Character is not really all that hard to do in Shadowrun...

[Lindt]

Cain: My apologies then. I was tired and grumpy and wanted to vent my spleen.

Huh, I thought they where awesome (and I even said awesome at the time). Back ported them to sr3 and my gunbunny player loves having one.


I guess most of it comes from having a large amount (read most) of the sr3 books and being too poor to buy all the sr4 ones.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Well, that Pornomancer looks like it could not take a blind street samurai. Seriously, look at the other stats it does not have.. No Dodge skill, average pistol skill.. All I need is one pissed off street samurai with a high powered rifle. You need to be close to somebody to seduce somebody. You can't seduce a sniper bullet.

Plus forget those emotitoy things.. That is the crappiest piece of Shadowrun tech I have ever seen. It is so banned from my 4th ed games..

That's why she has backup. Of course, it's not like anyone who comes into contact with the Pornomancer will ever BE pissed off. Plus she can wear 9/9 worth of armor due to FFBA, which is nice.

And if he doesn't one-shot her? He loves her.

[Larme]

That happens quite easily in SR4. Exceptional Attribute + Aptitude = No improvement possible. Sure, there's tricks like geneware and SURGE; but the point is, you can easily start out with a dice pool at the absolute maximum. You can't increase it at all.

Sure, in one thing, at prohibitive expense. In SR3, you can always increase it, but you can start out so high in so many areas that you'd never need to improve any of them.

Outlining it is not the same as posting it. I'd like to see a breakdown, especially under Priority.

Sorry, I'm not going to spend that much effort to win a debate, it simply doesn't matter enough to me. Take my word for it or don't. I made that character at least three times, once using build points and twice with priority. You can disbelieve me if you want and claim victory in the argument. I no longer have my SR3 books, and don't want to spend hours refamiliarizing myself with the system just to prove something to you.

All right, let's call it "Power inequity". A game is broken when one character can completely dominate the others. By making everyone more powerful, it was actually harder to create an inequity in SR3. Under SR4, however, it is dead easy to create characters of unequal power levels. Just compare one of the BBB archetypes to the Pornomancer, for one example. He can completely dominate the archetypes in one area, and beat or match them in others.

Now, lest people think I'm SR4 bashing, this was also possible in SR3. Using Sum-to-Ten or Points, you could create some hugely powerful characters, who frequently dominated the others. But the difference wasn't as great. It's easier to create a useless character in SR4. That makes the power difference even more stark.

Inequity, sure. That's actually a problem with SR4. It's harder to make a really good SR4 character, so you can end up with one badass and three nobz0rs. It's happened to me in fact -- a physad with ~20 pistols dice, my combat hacker with 16, and two the others with 8 or less, and one init pass. It's less likely in SR3 because it's so simple to make a strong character, as simple as it can be when the rules are spread across half a dozen books (not that there are much fewer books in SR4). All that means though is that the GM has to do a little more work, has to coordinate with players to let them know what kind of power level to expect, and to help them build a character that won't fail. It's a flaw in SR4, but I don't think it overcomes the less generalist characters that come out of it.

[paws2sky]

Don't forget First Ed's method: Priority.

Oh god, playing a metahuman in 1e (and to a lesser extent, 2e) was painful. As I recall (for all you youngsters)...

1E: Priority A for metahuman, plus a mandatory random allergy. And if you were a troll, you suffered a penalty (+2 on 2d6, I think) when you rolled for severity. (I rolled severe allergy to plastics one time... Oh yeah, that sucked. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) )

2E: Priority A for metahuman, but no mandatory allergy. Yay.

Also, as a 1e/2e metahuman, you couldn't have top resources, skills, or attributes. You could be a full magician if you burned your B priority or an adept if you burned your C priority. Whee.

But wait, there's more! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) If you had a penalty to an attribute, such as a Troll's -2 CHA, you had to buy it up enough that your modified stat wasn't reduced below a 1. SO in the chase of the troll, you had to sink 3 attribute points into CHA to end up with a 1! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

We were blown away by 3e's rather dramatic reduction in priority cost for metahumans. That was definitely one of the things that 3e got right. (Even if it did lead to a silly number of mundane dwarf and ork runners.)

I still haven't messed with RC's priority system yet. Not sure if I ever will since I think they finally got the BP system right. Well.. more or less.

-paws

[Stahlseele]

Why is a large Number of Mundane Dwarf and Orc Runners silly?
Especially Orks are numerous and more or less cut out for the running Job.
Strong, resilent, not slower than humans, about the same size as humans.
worst thing about Priority in 3rd ed?
Troll Mage with 400k Nuyen
Or Troll Adept with 1 Million Nuyen.
In both cases 27 Points for Skills and 21 Points for Atributes.
Or if you want more Skill/Attribute points simply go Dwarf/Ork