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> Corporate Enclaves, Reviews Si Vous Plait.
Fuchs
post May 28 2009, 10:44 AM
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QUOTE (Bull @ May 28 2009, 12:35 PM) *
And there's a difference between discussion, and whining, bickering, and accusations.


And again, that's yet another thing. Warning someone because their tone is deemed not appropriate is not the same as warning someone for disucssing a certain topic.

QUOTE (Bull @ May 28 2009, 12:35 PM) *
But, when they start degrading, insulting, and bashing the other freelancers and developers, when they start dragging out discussions and conversations and decisions that were made "behind closed doors", things that involve the company and the developers, that's when it becomes a little bit of a problem. And when they start dragging it out and yelling about the same few things over and over again, then it becomes a big problem.


Apart from the tone, how much "closed doors" matters depends on who closed and opened the doors. Expecting those not sworn to silence to avoid a topic just because someone else talked to them is a bit much, IMHO.
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FrankTrollman
post May 28 2009, 10:45 AM
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QUOTE (Bull)
But, when they start degrading, insulting, and bashing the other freelancers and developers, when they start dragging out discussions and conversations and decisions that were made "behind closed doors", things that involve the company and the developers, that's when it becomes a little bit of a problem. And when they start dragging it out and yelling about the same few things over and over again, then it becomes a big problem.


Uh huh.

But the thing is that nothing I've been talking about took place behind closed doors. On this thread, the thread which was linked in my reprimand, I was speaking about:
  • The things I liked and disliked in the various "Cities of..." books. Which I didn't work on or see any drafts of ever.
  • The things I liked and disliked about the bonus material that demonseed elite added at the last moment to Street Magic. Which again I did not work on or see any drafts of before publication.


Honestly I'm just a dude. That I am held to a higher and different standard from other posters here is offensive, but it seriously has nothing whatever to do with anything that I am actually doing. This brings to mind the time you gave me a time out because you didn't like the mathematical conclusions I was reaching about D&D 4e material. It's seriously not cool.

I've posted a link to the board game, I'm off. And I'm off because the moderators have made it extremely clear that I am not wanted. I'm a "big problem" regardless of what I do or do not do. Regardless of what I say or do not say. I'm offended. And I'm leaving again. I've made my point: you'll never change.

-Frank
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Bull
post May 28 2009, 11:07 AM
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QUOTE (Fuchs @ May 28 2009, 05:44 AM) *
And again, that's yet another thing. Warning someone because their tone is deemed not appropriate is not the same as warning someone for disucssing a certain topic.


Funny enough, Frank wasn't "Warned". He came back, and came out swinging with his same aggressive, rude, in your face posting style he had when he left, and that often got himself in trouble, and we were attempting to circumvent having to actually warn him about anything.

Contrary to a few folks belief, we're not trying to drive anyone off. But we're also trying to make sure that individual posters are not chasing anyone away either. And posting behavior such as Frank's (and others) have done just that in the past.

QUOTE
Apart from the tone, how much "closed doors" matters depends on who closed and opened the doors. Expecting those not sworn to silence to avoid a topic just because someone else talked to them is a bit much, IMHO.


*sigh* And you're misinterpreting what I said, and blowing it out of proportion.

Frankly, there's nothing really top secret going on with freelancer discussions, outside of unannounced products and plot lines. But it's incredibly tacky and amateurish for anyone that either is or has been a freelancer to be involved in discussions that are doing little except tear apart decisions made by those in charge, or ripping up the work of other writers and freelancers. It doesn't lead to constructive discussion about Shadowrun. And we don't want it on Dumpshock. Period.

QUOTE
Honestly I'm just a dude. That I am held to a higher and different standard from other posters here is offensive, but it seriously has nothing whatever to do with anything that I am actually doing. This brings to mind the time you gave me a time out because you didn't like the mathematical conclusions I was reaching about D&D 4e material. It's seriously not cool.

I've posted a link to the board game, I'm off. And I'm off because the moderators have made it extremely clear that I am not wanted. I'm a "big problem" regardless of what I do or do not do. Regardless of what I say or do not say. I'm offended. And I'm leaving again. I've made my point: you'll never change.


Two things before you go, Frank.

A) You're held to a different standard because you were a freelancer at one time. Like it or not, that puts you above the average fan. It gives anything you say a little bit more weight, whether you like it or not, and whether what you say deserves it or not. To the casual fan, you represent the company in a minor way. And honestly, considering the way you throw your virtual weight and opinion around, I think you know that very well. So yes, we do hold you to a different standard.

B) It's almost never been about the content. YOu could have been discussing felafel recipes, and my response would have been much the same. It's your tone and your attitude. It's always been your tone and your attitude. Both of which are usually incredibly negative.

And with that, lets let this thread head back on track, or let it die with what little dignity it has left.

Bull
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Demonseed Elite
post May 28 2009, 12:06 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 28 2009, 05:45 AM) *
  • The things I liked and disliked about the bonus material that demonseed elite added at the last moment to Street Magic. Which again I did not work on or see any drafts of before publication.


Clarification: The Deep Lacuna entry in Street Magic was not bonus material added at the last minute. The entire chapter on Astral Space and the Metaplanes in Street Magic was something I was asked to do when the original author it was assigned to had to back out due to real life complications. Since I came into the whole project late, my drafts didn't spend as much time up for review as the other chapters, but they did all go through the standard first draft/review/final draft process with Peter, who was in charge of developing the book. I did put the mechanics up for review before the fluff entries, it's true, because that stuff was more important for going out to the playtesters, but the Deep Lacuna idea in particular had been discussed among the freelancers and devs long before I wrote it down for Street Magic.

And I know Bull's posts aren't directed at me, but I hope it's clear when I discuss freelancer/developer decisions I'm not doing so with any vendettas in mind. I do feel like I was treated unprofessionally and inconsiderately by some at Catalyst and FanPro before them, and it is the publishers that keep me from continuing to write for Shadowrun, because I certainly don't love the game any less. But I don't hold back the praise I have for many of the freelancers and developers I've worked with and I equally don't hold back the criticism I have for some ideas (though I try to criticize the ideas, not the people). And equally, I'm always willing to hear out any criticism for any of the ideas I had.
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Mr. Bane
post May 28 2009, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE
Basically, Frank was offered some advice from the moderating staff. His warning level from the last time he was active here is very, very high. He basically has one strike left before he's banned. And is first post back, he's jumping in and throwing down the gauntlet at folks, getting riled up. We suggested that he consider toning it down and relaxing, to avoid getting himself in trouble right away.


At what point do we have to start posts with "Mother may I..."? Let me know so I can gtfo.
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hobgoblin
post May 28 2009, 04:43 PM
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oh, can it...
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Mr. Bane
post May 28 2009, 05:23 PM
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No, I take it a serious thing when Bull says Freelancers cant criticize other freelancers work, ever. There is a reason North Korea was recently shown to be incredibly bad off economically as well as educationally. Criticism is not allowed.

If all you can say are good things then no bad things will ever be pointed out. Unless Bull thinks everything to coming out of Shadowrun is Perfect then clearly there are bad things.

QUOTE
Frankly, there's nothing really top secret going on with freelancer discussions, outside of unannounced products and plot lines. But it's incredibly tacky and amateurish for anyone that either is or has been a freelancer to be involved in discussions that are doing little except tear apart decisions made by those in charge, or ripping up the work of other writers and freelancers. It doesn't lead to constructive discussion about Shadowrun. And we don't want it on Dumpshock. Period.


Guess what buttercup, criticism comes in all forms. Just because it's not wrapped in a little pretty package for your sensitive daisy ears (elfjokelulz) doesn't mean it isn't incredibly valid or criticism. Frankly, if you can't stand to see criticism that isn't a fellatio to the devs ego then get off the Internet.

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HappyDaze
post May 28 2009, 05:33 PM
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Mr. Bane, while I understand your view, this forum is the moderators' house and they decide what happens in it. I've certainly noticed a pro-writer bias here many times, and even though I think one of the wirters is an absolute AssHole, it's always clear which way the mods swing their support, so I generally just ignore the AssHole. That approach may not work for you, and if you can't deal with the bias, you'll need to go elsewhere to really be able to vent freely about it. That's what Frank has offerred to do, and it's not really a bad road to travel.
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Demonseed Elite
post May 28 2009, 05:33 PM
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First, I think you're at least partially misinterpreting Bull. Like I said in my post, I've been critical of some ideas in Shadowrun before and I've never been warned by the moderators for it. Perhaps it's in how the criticism is done.

Second, just because these forums are on the Internet doesn't make them a paragon of free speech democracy. These forums do belong to someone, who pays for hosting, and who has invited us all here as guests. Sure, there are lots of places you can set up on the Internet where you can post however you like with no repercussions or moderation, but I don't recall it being said that this was one of them.
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Octopiii
post May 28 2009, 05:48 PM
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I'm not sure why people are crying out "unfair!" when no official action was taken here. Frank was given a polite heads up that he was beginning to turn the threads he was active in to flame bait, and Frank's response was to bunch his panties together and take off in a huff. Honestly, the inside baseball stuff going on is mildly interesting, but any thread that degenerates into flames all take on the same character: tedious.

That said, Mr. Bane seems to be taking a kitchen fire and calling it a holocaust. Who is telling people not to criticize, honestly? We have the Matrix thread, which has been nothing but people bashing a system that constitutes a significant portion of the game, and no one came along to tell anyone to knock it off. This thread had quite a few criticisms leveled at LA and Catalyst's new mega fun corp, Horizon, and no one said word one until Frank began ripping into Demonseed's aesthetic and logical sensibilities, at which point he was given a polite warning that he was beginning to head into flame territory. Apparently, that means this board is on the slippery slope to becoming the playground of Our Glorious Moderators? Give me a break.
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Stahlseele
post May 28 2009, 05:49 PM
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chan-style postings will get someone banned faster than captain chaos himself could do it
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Mr. Bane
post May 28 2009, 06:36 PM
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You boys got sum perty perty lips.
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ravensmuse
post May 28 2009, 06:47 PM
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There's a difference between critizing the work and criticizing the work, the person behind the work, the person who hired that person, and the company that hires all of those people all while complaining that no one appreciates his carefully constructed, logical to a point rules, using language that is both derogatory and negative.

The mods have told Frank multiple times to watch his language and to try to interact with fellow posters in a way that doesn't sound like the Word Of God. He's also been asked not to drag out dirty laundry that's been aired multiple times between himself and the devs and fellow freelancers from projects three or four books ago because all it does is drive the actual Catalyst staff away from the board and make this place a cesspool for weeks at a time.

It's not healthy for Dumpshock in general, and if he doesn't want to follow the rules, he can take his ball and go home. That's all that Bull asked.
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Mr. Bane
post May 29 2009, 02:00 AM
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QUOTE (Bull @ May 28 2009, 12:07 PM) *
Funny enough, Frank wasn't "Warned". ...

Frankly, there's nothing really top secret going on with freelancer discussions ...
B) It's almost never been about the content.

Bull


Liar liar liar liar.

QUOTE
The freelancer material should be kept behind closed doors. I know you aren't one anymore, but we expect the freelancers to follow certain codes of conduct related to their NDAs and request that they keep their freelancer drama elsewhere. Let this serve as a final warning for this type of post. You are down to your last lifeline at this point, so if you wish to continue to freely post on DS, you will need to re-read the TOS, and rethink the posts and discussions you are having on these forums. You should note that your posts are being watched and reviewed carefully by the moderation team.

Thank you
The DS moderation team
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Backgammon
post May 29 2009, 02:14 AM
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Dude, you have fifteen posts and half of them, if not all, are immature drivel or misguided remarks about freedom of speech. Just leave and don't let the door hit you in the ass. You can go comment on some other forum about how you're so damn hardcore and independant we couldn't handle you here. Just.. be quiet.
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Caine Hazen
post May 29 2009, 02:35 AM
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This is a thread warning... let's get this back on track in talking about Corp Enclaves, or the thread will be locked.
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Mr. Bane
post May 29 2009, 02:38 AM
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Ah, another person who believes that if it's insulting, it shouldn't be addressed.

Well I can pucker up.

"Bull, your post completely contradicts what was actually messaged to Franktrollman via private message. In fact, it looks like you posted these contradictions to make it appear like you were taking a different stance than was actually going on."
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Dashifen
post May 29 2009, 02:33 PM
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Incidentally, please be aware that there's a difference between our casual messages to posters regarding their behavior and an Administrative Warning. Administrative warnings should always contain the quoted portion of the Dumpshock Terms of Service that we feel a poster has violated and a link to the post that represents the violation. Please notice the use of the word "should" in that statement; we're human, and sometimes we forget. Bull's message to FrankTrollman contained neither of these and, thus, was not intended to be an Administrative Warning.
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DWC
post May 29 2009, 02:41 PM
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Steering things back on topic, was there some magic phenomenon that prevented the "Fall of LA" from generating an appropriately sized tidal wave?
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Malicant
post May 29 2009, 02:49 PM
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I don't think there was a mention of something like this, but if magic teleport-swaps landscape and the resulting tidal waves do not result at all magic can be easily blamed to avoid frustration.
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Malachi
post May 29 2009, 02:52 PM
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QUOTE (DWC @ May 29 2009, 08:41 AM) *
Steering things back on topic, was there some magic phenomenon that prevented the "Fall of LA" from generating an appropriately sized tidal wave?

It can probably be explained by the manifestation of the Deep Lacuna itself. As far as I understand it (keeping in mind I didn't read the entries that closely, so someone like Demonseed can correct me) the area underneath LA suddenly became an alchera - or an area where Astral Space crosses over and becomes physical space. In the Astral the area under LA was "empty" and mostly caverns and such, so at that time the city above simply "sank" into the now empty space beneath it. A tsunami (tidal wave is a misnomer, btw since its not created by "tides") happens when water gets displaced so, in the case of LA, the wave might not have been generated when the alchera phenomenon manifested it might not have "displaced" water so much as just "made it disappear."

Just spitballing ideas here, basically.
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Wesley Street
post May 29 2009, 03:43 PM
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That was my interpretation of the Deep Lacuna effect as well. The water and land mass magically vanished, hence no tsunami. It isn't as sexy as massive tidal waves destroying the Pacific Rim but it gets the job done.

Arguments can be made that perhaps LA didn't "deserve" to be sunk but it wasn't that interesting of a locale in California Free State, just as Denver was fairly dull pre-Ghostwalker.

Upon further reflection I do now question if it deserved to be in a book called Corporate Enclaves. That's not a criticism of the city's new geography or anything to do with the writing. I was and am perfectly happy with both. But it didn't feel like a write up about a North American company town like the Detroit write-up in Target: UCAS. Despite the prevalence of Pito and Orange County's Americana amusement park I didn't get the feeling that Horizon is overtly or covertly pulling the strings of the community, like the Japanacorps do in Neo-Tokyo. My interpretation is that while Ares is beloved by the citizens of Detroit as a surrogate father, Horizon is just... sitting there in LA.
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hobgoblin
post May 29 2009, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE (Malachi @ May 29 2009, 04:52 PM) *
It can probably be explained by the manifestation of the Deep Lacuna itself. As far as I understand it (keeping in mind I didn't read the entries that closely, so someone like Demonseed can correct me) the area underneath LA suddenly became an alchera - or an area where Astral Space crosses over and becomes physical space. In the Astral the area under LA was "empty" and mostly caverns and such, so at that time the city above simply "sank" into the now empty space beneath it. A tsunami (tidal wave is a misnomer, btw since its not created by "tides") happens when water gets displaced so, in the case of LA, the wave might not have been generated when the alchera phenomenon manifested it might not have "displaced" water so much as just "made it disappear."

Just spitballing ideas here, basically.

Then there is the issue of how fast the sinking happened. Given that most of the buildings are still standing, it must have happened fairly slow, as i do not think any building is designed to cope with being dropped several meters...
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Wesley Street
post May 29 2009, 04:03 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 29 2009, 11:55 AM) *
Given that most of the buildings are still standing, it must have happened fairly slow, as i do not think any building is designed to cope with being dropped several meters...

That could have been made a little clearer. My understanding was that the buildings were standing but structurally damaged. Theoretically the landmass and water could have magically "beamed" away at a slow enough rate that it wasn't an instant drop with a consequential flood but still quick enough to prevent escape.
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Demonseed Elite
post May 29 2009, 04:04 PM
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You guys have the basic idea; for more specifics I'd have to have my copy of Street Magic on me. With the type of alchera that the Deep Lacuna is, the previous geography and the new geography exchange places. In this case, a lot of earth, sewer tunnels, etc. were swapped with an underground tunnel system. In some places, this tunnel system was not built to support what is now above it (buildings, highways, and other assorted urban infrastructure) and the tunnels collapsed. In many of these places, water rushed in from the sea, either into collapsed tunnels or even still-intact tunnels. Water wasn't being displaced, rather water was filling new voids, like when lake drilling breaches an underground salt mine.
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