Making the kill..., Roleplaying the difficulty in taking a (meta)human life Options

[Kerenshara]

One thing that I think gets entirely too little time is the role playing of the challenges of taking a life. I am not talking about hitting the target. I am talking about actually pulling the trigger at all. I am talking about being able to point the gun generally in the target’s direction when you do.

A recent study (which I am helpless to find the link to again) focused on combat psychology of soldiers at war since the age of the black powder musket. What was found was that a shocking percentage of soldiers never even pulled the trigger of their weapon. IIRC it was almost ten percent in some conflicts. Apparently less than a third of soldiers actively tried to hit another human when they did pull the trigger, instead settling for “suppressive fire�. Again, IIRC, it was in the single digits the percentage of soldiers who could successfully engage an enemy target without that target already firing at them on a battlefield where they COULD fire back. Modern training has succeeded in turning this around to a large extent by dehumanizing the enemy and turning them into another target on the range. (Video games have helped a lot in this regard as well.) Older conflicts settled for harnessing the rage of the soldier and directing it at a target that was “less than human�. The cold blooded Nazis, or the subhuman Soviets, or the brutal Japanese. Every faction was vilified by their opponents to turn them into something to be feared and reviled, in order to get around the basic societal survival mechanism programmed into all “healthy� human beings: the inability to kill another person.

And even if you can pull the trigger and drop your target, how do you deal with it afterwards? Some people rationalize “it was him or me�, or “he was a Nazi, he had it coming�, or “Those terrorists, they aren’t even human�. But that does not necessarily mean the person sleeps soundly at night. It does not reflect the ways a person begins to look differently at themselves when they find out killing isn’t actually very hard, once you break what is really just a very deep taboo. Some people react with excitement, indulging in the ultimate forbidden act, becoming dangerously violent and aggressive. Others can’t ever come to grips with their actions and it will haunt them for the rest of their lives. Some argue that mortal combat exposes the true nature of a person, be it good or evil, in how they deal with death.

In Shadowrun, we very often participate by proxy (through our avatars: our characters) in the death of others. Sometimes, that is the mission unto itself. But as close as we ever come to tackling the role playing side of the problem is asking “will your character do wet work?� at the beginning. I played in a fantasy game where my character was a Paladin, and in one incident, killed a very dangerous opponent single handedly. The rest of the players felt it was melodramatic when they had a breakdown afterwards; what annoyed them was not the angst over killing, but that they were afraid because the actual killing wasn’t harder, emotionally. The character worried what that said about them, a protector of the good, and the righteous. Just because they are evil, do they really deserve to die? Do I have the right to make that choice? And if I can take their lives so easily, am I really the person I think I am?

Just because you’re a Shadowrunner, that doesn’t mean you’re a sociopath, or a natural killer. Have you ever taken the time to consider what it would be like to look into a helpless person’s eyes as you pull the trigger? How it would feel afterwards? Is your character really that cold? Or do they do what warriors through the ages have done: turn to the comfort of a bottle, the intimate touch of another person, acts where they purge their guilt in bursts of danger and adrenaline? If you aren’t the shooter, how does your character look at the killers on their team? I promise you, it should at least cross their minds. If the character is not SiNless, there was a fundamental choice somewhere to begin running the shadows. They CHOSE to associate with people who kill.

This shouldn’t be a simple, easy issue to deal with, if we are really role playing the character (unless they are in the 0.05% of people who have the psychological profile to kill repeatedly without damage to their empathy and conscience)? Because shadowrunners are mercenaries: they can always walk away … they choose to run, one way or the other.

I would love to hear people’s thoughts.

[kzt]

"On Killing" by Dave Grossman. Which is an interesting book, but a lot is based on the research in "Men Against Fire". The forward of recent editions of "Men Against Fire" includes the fact that there is not a shred of evidence that S.L.A. Marshall actually did the methodical surveys that supposedly form the basis of the book. As far as can be determined he just pulled numbers of out of his ass.

http://www.warchronicle.com/us/combat_hist...hallproblem.htm

[Stahlseele]

I would love to hear people’s thoughts.

i would love to read your posts in other colour/font/size.
this kinda hurts my eyes x.x


As for the killing part:
I am usually the Combat Monkey of the Group.
With dry wit and killing people, i could be a Holly-Wood-Movie-Star.

PC: *threatening, sounds a bit strange, kinda like a lisp or some sort of speech impairment* "Are you Toby or not Toby?"
NPC: "Not Toby!"
PC: "Well, he chose not to be" BLAMM.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Please increase the font size at least... am having a hard time reading the text...

As for dealing with it?... You do what you can... sometimes you do have nightmares... Some nights are better than others... you just hope that teh nightmares do not last for the rest of your life...

[Kerenshara]

Please increase the font size at least... am having a hard time reading the text...

One says increase, another decrease. Ok back up it goes.

As for dealing with it?... You do what you can... sometimes you do have nightmares... Some nights are better than others... you just hope that teh nightmares do not last for the rest of your life...

As to the other part, do you role play it?

[Stahlseele]

OK, much better now.
Keep this size.
this is actually readable.

Depends on the Situation.
Am i in a Fight?
Is there a Good reason for the kill?
If i am in a Fight? nope, i don't roleplay that at all.
I fight to win, if killing means winning, i kill to win.
do i have someone at my mercy?
Is there a reason for me to kill him?
If no, i simply won't usually.
If yes, depends on the situation.
Am i in a hurry?
If yes, nope, no roleplaying here either. *PC gives a heavy sigh*:"why do they allways make me kill them?" BANG
If no? depends. If i am bored, i might decide to torture him to death. if so, i play it out ONLY if the rest of the group agrees.
Me to GM:"OK, let's say he tells my everything i want to know and everything he thinks i should know and everything he guesses i might need to know some time and i won't tell you what i am going to do to him"
and i don't like hogging the Spotlight either. If someone else wants to do something which is going to take longer or has been planned to be done allready, then i step aside and tell the GM:"Yep, he's dead Jim" Usually, my GM answers with a frustrated:"My name's not Jim, and i ain't a Doctor, i am a Student. And stop with the Star Trek quotes."
Is it someone the group wants dead?
Does the group want him REALLY dead?
Does what the group wants conflict with what I/my character wants?
If no, torture or quick death to get rid of.
if yes, subterfuge and secrecy played out to get what i want.

[Mercurian]

There was a time I did roleplay those considerations in some (but not all) characters. I've even had a character off himself once the realization of what he had done had set in.

These days, the dramatic roleplaying is gone due to the newer members my group has acquired. Being of the younger video game generation, they don't have the same appreciation for roleplaying and are more interested in Michael Bay-esque games. This is not to say that all younger gamers are this way, just the ones at my table.

[SincereAgape]

Here is my two cents about killing in Shadowrun and the ways Shadowrunners approach the subject.

Not all characters in the Shadowrun universe, not all Shadowrunners have an easy time pulling the trigger and killing someone just for the heck of it. The way old SR characters, my players, and normal Shadowrunners approach the situation is, they won't kill innocent civilians, unless it's by accident. If they begin killing innocents or committ murders or pointless violence for the heck of it, they become pathological sociopaths. Not Shadowrunners.

On the other hand, characters kill. BUT that is after the metahuman the person they killed either screwed them in some way (Mr. Johnson) or are trying to kill them in the process. It's natural human nature for the people to throw out the moral dillema of killing someone when they are firing bullets at you first. Even then, many Shadowrunners carry Gel Rounds, Narcoject Pistols, or use Stun Bolts to take down security guards, just trying to make a honest buck. In Character, The Shadowrun community is a small one. Most Shadowrunners are actually decent people. If a character begins to get a reputation for obtaining a sadistic enjoyment out of executing senseless killing on a run, they are going to have a negative reputation. Or notorioty.

Out of character: I have a few players who love playing games with excessive violence in them. They love the combat aspect of Shadowrun and all of the guns, rules, and explosions that come with the game. After playing we have conversations about the excessive bullets they used with a sniper rifle at point blank to take down the pious elf, or how they used a dead body as a dummy to lure in the other mercs before using a grenade to blow them all to hell and back. That being said. These players have also not killed a NPC who's intent it was to kill them because they had an opportunity to roleplay with that NPC and found them to be a decent person.

Killing charcters in a game is not a black as white as it seems.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

One says increase, another decrease. Ok back up it goes.


As to the other part, do you role play it?

Sometimes... depends upon the character type I am playing... currently, I have a character that is a professional, who Could kill if it was required, but still prefers to not kill given the preference... It affects one when one does so, and in a lot of ways that are not entirely visible to everyone around you...

[Kerenshara]

Depends on the Situation.
Am i in a Fight?

Of course it does!, actually, that was my point.
Well, here, it's a lot easier to rise to "the killing edge", but there are still questions once it passes.

Is there a Good reason for the kill?

Ok, I will sum that up with the tired old saw "who are YOU to play God, to decide who lives and who dies?!" (Not that I mean a word of it, but I have to be my own Devil's advocate.)

If i am in a Fight? nope, i don't roleplay that at all.
I fight to win, if killing means winning, i kill to win.

OK, that's a little more "brutish"... or maybe "thug-like". Not necessarily a condemnation, mind you. But it is.

do i have someone at my mercy?
Is there a reason for me to kill him?

None specifically, other than maybe the color of his shirt.

If no, i simply won't usually.
If yes, depends on the situation.

Ok, makes sense. The "usually" intrigues me.

Am i in a hurry?
If yes, nope, no roleplaying here either. *PC gives a heavy sigh*:"why do they allways make me kill them?" BANG
If no? depends. If i am bored, i might decide to torture him to death. if so, i play it out ONLY if the rest of the group agrees.

OK, there's not a lot of role playing necessary if you really are acting in that fashion. You only need an occasional mention of what you do to remind the rest of the party that you are a borderline sociopath.

Me to GM:"OK, let's say he tells my everything i want to know and everything he thinks i should know and everything he guesses i might need to know some time and i won't tell you what i am going to do to him"
and i don't like hogging the Spotlight either. If someone else wants to do something which is going to take longer or has been planned to be done allready, then i step aside and tell the GM:"Yep, he's dead Jim" Usually, my GM answers with a frustrated:"My name's not Jim, and i ain't a Doctor, i am a Student. And stop with the Star Trek quotes."

OK, that's really funny.

Is it someone the group wants dead?
Does the group want him REALLY dead?

OK, I covered that above.

Does what the group wants conflict with what I/my character wants?

There's a question I would like to hear answered by characters that aren't already on the edge...

If no, torture or quick death to get rid of.
if yes, subterfuge and secrecy played out to get what i want.

Ok that about clears it up for YOU. You DO realize you're something of a brute, right? I wouldn't expect any angst out of you. I do know I would have problems staying in a group with you when I realized you were willing to kill somebody we all wanted left alive because they slotted you off. But as long as it's honest and consistent, then I can't fault you for how you are interpreting and playing your character.

[Kerenshara]

There was a time I did roleplay those considerations in some (but not all) characters. I've even had a character off himself once the realization of what he had done had set in.

These days, the dramatic roleplaying is gone due to the newer members my group has acquired. Being of the younger video game generation, they don't have the same appreciation for roleplaying and are more interested in Michael Bay-esque games. This is not to say that all younger gamers are this way, just the ones at my table.

Then I have to tell you I am impressed by your honesty with yourself in character at the first part, and I can only express my deepest sadness at the last.

[Kerenshara]

Killing charcters in a game is not a black as white as it seems.

Absolutely! And I never meant to imply for it was for everyone. But I wasn't talking about reducing "collateral damage" or tranquing most of the time. When the kills happen, how do they affect the characters?

[10gauge]

Well, how does the kill affect characters? It depends on the player, I think. If your knowledge about violence, guns, pain, deprivation, etc. just comes from video games, a kill won't affect your character at all. If you were already in contact with those things/feelings, it will probably affect your character.

I played a cleaner and with every kill it became harder to go on. Since the character worked for a megacorp, he couldn't quit. He suffered depression and started to let his victims survive.

A good roleplayer will make sure that killing will affect his character in a negative way unless he plays a totally cold-blooded killer.

[The Jake]

Not all characters are big on killing.

It just seems those that are, are well, very adept at it. I'd say more than a few are psychologically "damaged goods", as it were.

I have one PC who is an ex-spy who I would describe as a borderline sociopath. He doesn't kill ALL the time but he is brutal in dishing out the pain.

- J.

[Critias]

I've long been a big proponent of the "no one would get a job as a Shadowrunner unless their life was really fucked up" camp. Folks don't just fall into the Shadows, they either claw their way up from an even more miserable and violent life on the streets, or they're such a social outcast that they develop the unique skillset required through more formal channels, then somehow decide to turn their back on that "real" life and go be a professional criminal/terrorist for hire.

The backstories I cook up for my characters reflect this, and often focus as much on the pivotal events that stripped away most of their morality as much as they focus on their official background as it pertains to training, family, past jobs, etc. Through being raised (and indoctrinated) in the Tir military, bleeding in the gutters as a young teen only to be the one dishing it out as an adult, coming up through the ranks in an organized crime syndicate, growing up into a position in one of the Sixth World's terrorist groups, or what-have-you, they're as mentally prepared as they are physically, and long ago jumped the hurdles of conscience and sympathy when it comes to the act of taking a metahuman life.

It's the nature of the job -- you (generic "you") don't get into this line of work unless you're (a) capable of doing so, which requires not only the raw skills and abilities, but also the mindset to use them ruthlessly when the time comes, and (b) fucked up in some way so that living like this in some way appeals to you. Most of my characters, as such, have pretty much no problem whatsoever snatching the life right out of someone with their bare hands, if that's what the situation calls for.

It's also worth pointing out I have much the same argument in place for D&D characters and all other sort of "adventurer" types. They're murderous hobos, who have chosen to live a life of wandering from place to place, murdering other sentient or semi-sentient creatures, and looting their bodies. That takes a special kind of person, just as much as being a Shadowrunner does.

[pbangarth]

I'm going to have to deal with this situation in the near future with a character I just started playing.

He is an archaeologist, an academic until recently, whose career was destroyed when he was framed for murders and theft of an artifact. His lawyer got him off, but few believe him innocent. He has entered the shadows to find the man who framed him, and one way or another clear his name. (No, his name is not Dr. Richard Kimble.)

He is primarily a data search guy, with perception and assensing skills, and comes from a life of adventure and hard work, but no killing. He has taken work with a Johnson who promises him information about the criminal. Now, what will this PC, who has the mild form of Pacifist Quality, do when it comes time to kill? What will he do if and when he confronts the one who destroyed his career? And will he stay the academic-out-of-his-element, or be turned into the kind of person Critias describes? I don't know.

But he has just resisted killing an NPC two of his teammates thought should die just to be safe. I have yet to find out whether this will come back to bite him (them). Paying a heavy price for compassion sometimes erodes the compassion.

[DoomFrog]

To start, and with no malice to the OP, I have to say without a link to the site you mentioned, the information seems most likely to be either highly biased, misinformed, or misinterpreted.

As for you actual question, I have never had any issue with the "making the kill" decision. The fact is that all my characters act like me, just me given different goals, training, beliefs, knowledge, powers, and looks (those things do not fully compose a person). But they all make their decisions the same way as I do. And for me, the situation just wouldn't happen.

I like to think I know myself well, and if I knew I had have a hard time dealing with the emotional stress of taking another live, I just wouldn't. If the circumstances came up that I knew I could deal with it given the direness of the situation, than I would.

All my characters feel that way. Some have no issue with killing because they were either taught that killing has acceptable, or live in some fantasy world (literally) were killing other people is not only acceptable, but a very lucrative profession.

I mean in the end you are asking a question that is its own answer. Its a tautology, the character deals with taking a life by dealing with taking a life. You listed all the ways they could deal with it, though you did leave out they had a different moral belief structure that allows for the killing of other people when necessary. Think about the Mafia, they aren't all empathy-less sociopaths, they care about family, but they just thinking killing some people is fine.

[GreyBrother]

Hmmm this question is different for every character i have.

My technomancer made his first kill with 4 years, it was more an "Whoops" Situation, without any comedic effect. You don't want any 4 year old to do that but he defended himself and this would help him to grow up very fast, mentally at least. The following years, every person he had to nuke with black hammer, he rationalized it. The fact that most of them were Dissonant helped a lot. Now he would argue "If humanity is to achieve the goal of living one day in the matrix, then we can't let those live who compromise this idea or the agents of the idea."

The czech wolf shapeshifter on the other hand "killed" his first human in our last session. He killed before, other animals for food, but preferred to run away from other predators since he was a lone wolf for half of his life (one year). It was an intense scene, he summoned an air spirit to incapacitate a troll but then his mentor spirit fiddled something around his will and ordered the spirit to kill the troll via Engulf. Didn't look pretty.
It isn't that much of a problem, but he fears that he may become something like those "raging werewolves who kill people and drink their blood" he saw in some bad trid shows.

Then there is the "Drone Commander" Concept i have... he isn't played yet but i made my thoughts about his personality. Killing for him is easy. Just point at the person you want dead and his drones make sure it happens. And all of this comfortable from the seat of his truck without even being in the danger zone.

[Stahlseele]

Ok that about clears it up for YOU. You DO realize you're something of a brute, right? I wouldn't expect any angst out of you.

Yes. i realize that. Thank you very much. That's my favourite Role to play too! ^^
Well, someone has to. What with all those pretty-boy-elegant elite mages/hackers/faces and whatnot around.
Nope, no angsting from me. Especially NOT over something in a Game. I guess i AM a bit Jaded.
Two weeks ago, some poor shmuck decided to off himself by jumping from the Roof of the 11 Story building i work in.
Saturday morning at precisely 09:37. I work on ground level. We have a nice big window front.
I usually sit with my back to the Windows. I saw something drop by and heard/felt a hearty WHUMP.
Curious that i am, i looked around to see what it was. First thought:"Well, just good that it's saturday morning and nobody was standing there having a smoke"
And went back to work after telling the supervisor to call for someone to pick him up.
There was a surprisingly low ammount of blood. Only his one foot was in the wrong direction and he had a laceration on his head, but aside from the fact that he fell from an 11 story building, he did not really look all that dead. Someone being hit by a truck looks much more gruesome. Seen both. Also someone jumped in front of a train i was going to take on the same station.
I guess i am used to things like that by now.

Also, i usually don't kill (n)PC's if i don't have to, because it is usually not worth the trouble.
Getting rid of the Body. The Evidence. The Weapon. Costs time and money.
And i don't just overrule what the group wants on a whim. If i do it, i usually have a longer-standing feud with the poor soul who incured enough of my wrath to warrant such measures from me.
My characters tend to be good natured/hearted people with a pretty mean streak. and living in a plex i play them about as jaded as i can. why should they let something like that affect them in their free time? It's shadowrun. It's dystopia. People go out to kill other people FOR FUN. I don't kill FOR FUN. I kill for GREAT JUSTICE! No, scratch that. i kill for money. or for revenge. or because i/the group deem it neccessary. or he deserved it.

[Kliko]

We're probaply referring to the same studies if we say that out of every group of 100 soldiers 98 used to be making 'noise' while 2 were doing the actual 'killing'. Of these 2 soldiers, 1 used to be a sociopath and the other a 'hero' archetype. It is indeed quite stunning to watch interviews of soldiers after the Falklands getting concerned with some of their collegeaus in the aftermath.

Modern conditioniong of soldiers (through extensive training simulations) makes modern soldiers far more effective compared to their historic counterparts. However, the drawback being issues like ptss and similar conditions. It is not an unlikely hypothesis to state that these result from turning against our human nature -or otherwise similarly conditioned behaviour (through thousand years of christian morals etc.)- to not kill.

[toturi]

We're probaply referring to the same studies if we say that out of every group of 100 soldiers 98 used to be making 'noise' while 2 were doing the actual 'killing'. Of these 2 soldiers, 1 used to be a sociopath and the other a 'hero' archetype. It is indeed quite stunning to watch interviews of soldiers after the Falklands getting concerned with some of their collegeaus in the aftermath.

Modern conditioniong of soldiers (through extensive training simulations) makes modern soldiers far more effective compared to their historic counterparts. However, the drawback being issues like ptss and similar conditions. It is not an unlikely hypothesis to state that these result from turning against our human nature -or otherwise similarly conditioned behaviour (through thousand years of christian morals etc.)- to not kill.

I wonder what was the sample population that was chosen for the studies. Colombian drug thugs? Sri Lankan soldiers? Perhaps Nepalese Gurkhas? If you choose your subjects from pacifistic/peaceful societies or societies that place a very high value on peace than warmaking ability, then you are deliberately skewing your results, especially so if the evaluators are from pacifistic/peaceful backgrounds. From my point of view, your Western societies places a disproportionate value on human life. If you come from a place where the reason you do not kill is because you'd get kill back or where you can pay blood money instead, would there be so much agonising over cutting down someone who was in your way?

[Kliko]

That's very true. I'll see if I can dig up some numbers and references. This Grossman and Marshall chaps seems somewhat biased and if memory serves me right this data came from a different source.

[Blade]

I agree with toturi: I'm not sure if it's the same for every population. A character who grew up in the Barrens and see violence everyday might handle killing more easily than a wageslave who only see violence on the trid or fake violence in simsense.

I once had a character who had some kind of pacifist flaw without knowing it: he felt like he could kill people but in the end he often found ways to avoid it and when he tried shooting at people he'd suffer a negative modifier.
And everytime I create a new character I include "how does he deal with death and killing?" in the list of the elements to define.

But while it's fine to roleplay the consequences of killing, there's the problem of falling into wangst and boring other players with it.

[Wasabi]

Some GM's are like wargamers and some like Amber Diceless RP'ers... and a myriad of inbetweens. Some games are suitable for inner turmoil to be expressed at length and others not. Its pretty game dependant and by game dependant I mean according to what style the GM has of running.

As for myself, I played a pacifist in tournament who ended up appealing to the team not to be violent and a second character at the table ("Angel", physically modelled after Angelina Jolie) was playing a pacifist too and we ended up sitting out the end encounter and simply tried to hold our cover by letting ourselves get neurostunned with the victims we had infiltrated so we wouldn't have our covers blown. We got lucky and succeeded and had great RP trying to sway the group and then validating to each other why violence was a last resort we hadn't reached yet. So yeah, I've roleplayed it out but sometimes it can be inappropriate to do so and in *those* cases shouldn't be done since each group of players is entertained differently and each GM has a certain style of running making it very situationally appropriate.

I also think it takes great roleplay skill to handle this sort of thing. I applaud GM's and players that can accomodate/facilitate this level of inner turmoil but in the end all players and the GM should have a nice time with their gaming.

[The Jake]

There was a surprisingly low ammount of blood. Only his one foot was in the wrong direction and he had a laceration on his head, but aside from the fact that he fell from an 11 story building, he did not really look all that dead. Someone being hit by a truck looks much more gruesome. Seen both. Also someone jumped in front of a train i was going to take on the same station.
I guess i am used to things like that by now.

Emphasis mine.

Jesus Christ... just what is the suicide rate in Hamburg?!? Are you people a couple cans short of a six pack or what??

Actually I work with a bunch of Germans. I'll ask them tomorrow wtf is in the water supply in Hamburg.

- J.