Making the kill..., Roleplaying the difficulty in taking a (meta)human life Options

[GreyBrother]

Huh... that would explain why i felt so awesome in Hamburg O_o

[Prime Mover]

Conflict is a major part of almost all rpg's. Escapism is all about not being who you really are, living vicariously via your cold as ice and hard as steel creation. That being said in some games violence is a means to an end, just part of everyday life (high fantasy) In SR I've noticed Sami types approach killing as just business and the more pacifistic might bulk at first but after a few dozen kills seem numbed to it and stop sneering in the direction of the mad killer. Hackers might see it more like a video game, derezzing an icon is nothing like seeing the ground splattered with brain matter. The more removed one becomes killing from a distance, remotely or just being exposed to multiple killings the more desensitized the person/player becomes. I've found this to be true for most groups.

Now after all that even stone cold killers can have a "code" no children, no insert (friendly syndicate here), no (insert religion or nationality here) etc... Sometimes for safety or loyalty and sometimes because even killers can have a soft spot left.

[Stahlseele]

Emphasis mine.

Jesus Christ... just what is the suicide rate in Hamburg?!? Are you people a couple cans short of a six pack or what??

Actually I work with a bunch of Germans. I'll ask them tomorrow wtf is in the water supply in Hamburg.

- J.

compare to some other bigger cities.
Mexico City, New York, tokyo, Hongkong.
Any major City, really. Also, i am perfectly fine. Now.
Probably immunized to whatever it is by now.
And Hamburg is such an beautifull and Awe-Inspiring City o.O

[Screaming Eagle]

Many RPG's de-humanize the opposition deliberatly and for some players and GM's this caries over. Other thinking races are not human etc. al. These games make a very poor place to start with the morality of killing (though I have explored it on and off even in *shudder* D&D) and it tends to get the players thinking.
Shadowrun characters run the full range from "hardened killers" to near pacifists and most of the time your foes are *quite* (meta)human. When running games I look at the charaters background to determine how "indepth" I get with the "waking up in a pool of sweet remembering what YOU JUST DID!" though I do not restrict the actions at the time there can be consequence. Looking at my current "group" we have 2... well humanitarians, the teams medic and hacker, neither from a criminal or military backgroud, they have been victims of circumstance with talents the shadows pay well for. They take penalties to attack to incapasitate rather then kill, use non-leathal ammo and options, endeavour to negotiate at any pass and have not over the last 5 months of game time (about a dozen runs?) killed anyone. In the meaty centre we have the teams mage, shes grown up on the glamour of Shadowrunning from a street level perspective, she has not killed anyone... personally. Anyone who has died from her actions has been well off camera as she has spirits deal any killing and she herself sticks to non-lethal spells. The morality and horror of this will be brought up during her initiatory questing next session, I have a planned scene where she is suffocating under tons of earth while buring alive... feels about right as these are two of her favorite spirit sevices that she has thus far kept "out of sight and mind". Lastly we have the teams "muscle" a Vory Physical Adept leg breaker and killer has LONG since gone past caring if he kills, he tends to keep it toned down... while the others are watching, but is rather of the opinion the rest of them are soft. Him nightmares? Heck yes, they had to leave that guard alive and HE SAW MY FACE! Now thats a nightmare.

[ruff0126]

I cannot speak for soldiers of wars past only for U.S. service men and women today and in an armed conflict or in your own or others defense very few people end u pfeeling bad for more than a day of so. Most of those feeling come into play when the situation did not nessasarly require lethal force. As for rpg's and roleplaying the feeling of your characters it does really depend on the tone of the group in WOD on average yes in D&D on average no.

[Lindt]

An interesting question.
The core of my gaming group is 2 girls, and I have about 6 other people that kinda slot in and out depending on the time. This was a small night and it was just the 2 girls so I needed to keep it fairly simple. So I gave them a wet work job on one 'Alex Norevak'. Gave the team a ton of info on habits and mannerisms to make the job easier. The players immediately thought a carbomb would be best, so they stole the marks car for a few hours, rigged a bomb into the radio, and put it back. Next morning a very pregnant Alexandria gets in her Mustang and blows up, with the players watching from the cafe down the street. All of the info they had gotten was gender neutral, and they did next to no additional legwork on the mark.

I have always considered it my goal to get past my players character and put a dent in my player. But when the stunned silence that followed was... perfect. I felt good about eliciting an emotion from the other side of a planet (one of my players is in Japan for a few years). Its not like they hadn't killed people before, our face has run down an opposing runner with a van, and my gunbunny went 7 for 7 with a combat shotgun against some gangers who wanted her coat. I think it just takes some perspective to make the impact.

[Cadmus]

Its not hard at all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) granted you have to be playing a char that has an issue with taking a life to start with (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kerenshara]

Many RPG's de-humanize the opposition deliberatly and for some players and GM's this caries over. Other thinking races are not human etc. al. These games make a very poor place to start with the morality of killing (though I have explored it on and off even in *shudder* D&D) and it tends to get the players thinking.
Shadowrun characters run the full range from "hardened killers" to near pacifists and most of the time your foes are *quite* (meta)human. When running games I look at the charaters background to determine how "indepth" I get with the "waking up in a pool of sweet remembering what YOU JUST DID!" though I do not restrict the actions at the time there can be consequence. Looking at my current "group" we have 2... well humanitarians, the teams medic and hacker, neither from a criminal or military backgroud, they have been victims of circumstance with talents the shadows pay well for. They take penalties to attack to incapasitate rather then kill, use non-leathal ammo and options, endeavour to negotiate at any pass and have not over the last 5 months of game time (about a dozen runs?) killed anyone. In the meaty centre we have the teams mage, shes grown up on the glamour of Shadowrunning from a street level perspective, she has not killed anyone... personally. Anyone who has died from her actions has been well off camera as she has spirits deal any killing and she herself sticks to non-lethal spells. The morality and horror of this will be brought up during her initiatory questing next session, I have a planned scene where she is suffocating under tons of earth while buring alive... feels about right as these are two of her favorite spirit sevices that she has thus far kept "out of sight and mind". Lastly we have the teams "muscle" a Vory Physical Adept leg breaker and killer has LONG since gone past caring if he kills, he tends to keep it toned down... while the others are watching, but is rather of the opinion the rest of them are soft. Him nightmares? Heck yes, they had to leave that guard alive and HE SAW MY FACE! Now thats a nightmare.

Now THIS was EXACTLY the kind of thing I was hoping to have come up!
*dances the happy dance since nobody can see*

I wasn't trying to judge people (and ESPECIALLY not our servicemen and women) with what I brought up. I was shocked enough by the numbers I read that I don't know how much credence I give them, but watching some footage from Vietnam, I see there IS an awful lot of that "suppressive fire" going on, but you can tell who's really trying to engage the enemy. But that's about as far as I am going to go in self defense. I'm not here to debate the numbers, just to discuss what those stated numbers might imply.

Here we have several excellent examples given, and some BRILLIANT!!! ways of dealing with it. I am positively DELIGHTED with the idea for dealing with the mage during the initiatiatory ordeal. And the method! *swoons in delight* It makes the point with absolute clarity that a lack of physical blood does not absolve you of the consequences of your actions, but does so in a way that should (hopefully) be both poigniant and memorable for the character and without damaging them.
The Vory is so far past the line that it's moot to deal with any "angst" on his part, and rightfully so. Not everybody in the shadows can be a "wuss" and do things non-lethally every time.
I look foward to hearing how you deal with the first time the other two wind up crossing the line, as well as how they deal with it when they realize what the Vory is doing when they aren't around.

Yes, it is always a personal choice issue how to deal with this. I am intrigued with some of the answers I have seen above. Some people simply believe that it's a hard world, and that it takes hard people to survive in it; If you've made it this far, you must be unusually hard. Personally, I think that takes away from the value of the struggle to get by with some humanity intact in such a world, but that's just my preference. It's your world, handle it as you please. Some of the answers that actually addressed the difficulties have been fascinating and I look foward to seeing more.

[kzt]

We're probaply referring to the same studies if we say that out of every group of 100 soldiers 98 used to be making 'noise' while 2 were doing the actual 'killing'. Of these 2 soldiers, 1 used to be a sociopath and the other a 'hero' archetype. It is indeed quite stunning to watch interviews of soldiers after the Falklands getting concerned with some of their collegeaus in the aftermath.

Modern conditioniong of soldiers (through extensive training simulations) makes modern soldiers far more effective compared to their historic counterparts. However, the drawback being issues like ptss and similar conditions. It is not an unlikely hypothesis to state that these result from turning against our human nature -or otherwise similarly conditioned behaviour (through thousand years of christian morals etc.)- to not kill.

'Out of every 100 men, 10 shouldn't even be there, 80 are just targets, nine are the real fighters, ... Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back'. Heraclitus ~500 BC

[Kerenshara]

An interesting question.
The core of my gaming group is 2 girls, and I have about 6 other people that kinda slot in and out depending on the time. This was a small night and it was just the 2 girls so I needed to keep it fairly simple. So I gave them a wet work job on one 'Alex Norevak'. Gave the team a ton of info on habits and mannerisms to make the job easier. The players immediately thought a carbomb would be best, so they stole the marks car for a few hours, rigged a bomb into the radio, and put it back. Next morning a very pregnant Alexandria gets in her Mustang and blows up, with the players watching from the cafe down the street. All of the info they had gotten was gender neutral, and they did next to no additional legwork on the mark.

I have always considered it my goal to get past my players character and put a dent in my player. But when the stunned silence that followed was... perfect. I felt good about eliciting an emotion from the other side of a planet (one of my players is in Japan for a few years). Its not like they hadn't killed people before, our face has run down an opposing runner with a van, and my gunbunny went 7 for 7 with a combat shotgun against some gangers who wanted her coat. I think it just takes some perspective to make the impact.

*blinks, and then remembers to close her mouth*
OK. Brilliant. Vicious, but brilliant. And I think you had the effect you intended. Your players (and their characters) I can guarantee learned the lesson you wanted them to learn, and they will trully take it to heart because you didn't whack them with a stick, you simply let them put their foot in it.
"Personally, I disaprove of car bombs on the general principle that they are messy as hell, tending to cause more collateral damage than I am willing to accept, professionally. And I have some... personal reasons as well." ::Kerenshara

[Ayeohx]

The act of actually killing someone isn't the issue, is it? Its fear that keeps people in check.

Fear of God or damnation.
Fear of imprisonment.
Fear of isolation (when people ditch you).
Fear of death.
Fear of retaliation.

The more you cross off the list the more killing someone becomes okay.

Yes, there is more to it. I suppose the biggie is changing (ending) someone's life. If this isn't important to you then you'll probably sleep fine at nights.

I'm sure many of you could kill someone given the correct situation; especially if the law is willing to back you (defense, military, etc). Hell, given the right circumstances you'll be called a hero.
You killed that crazy guy who came into rob the store and he shot 3 people while doing so? You're a hero! And he had no family or friends, you've been cleared of any charges, you got an award, one month off work and you don't believe in an afterlife... I'd say you'd probably be pretty happy about ending that fellows life.

Shadowrunners, on the other hand, are not usually heroes to the general public. Yes, some admire them for striking back against the system, which I'm sure is the plot for many shadowrunner trids but most people wouldn't understand them. Some runners are heroes to their inner circles though (family, gangs, criminal affiliations) where killing is much more acceptable.

Now, all of this said, my gamers' characters use non-lethal methods and few want to do wetwork. Fear of reprisal keeps them in check.

[Kerenshara]

Conflict is a major part of almost all rpg's. Escapism is all about not being who you really are, living vicariously via your cold as ice and hard as steel creation. That being said in some games violence is a means to an end, just part of everyday life (high fantasy) In SR I've noticed Sami types approach killing as just business and the more pacifistic might bulk at first but after a few dozen kills seem numbed to it and stop sneering in the direction of the mad killer. Hackers might see it more like a video game, derezzing an icon is nothing like seeing the ground splattered with brain matter. The more removed one becomes killing from a distance, remotely or just being exposed to multiple killings the more desensitized the person/player becomes. I've found this to be true for most groups.

Now after all that even stone cold killers can have a "code" no children, no insert (friendly syndicate here), no (insert religion or nationality here) etc... Sometimes for safety or loyalty and sometimes because even killers can have a soft spot left.

I agree generally with the sentiment here, and fully on the specific observations. I was excluding remote-control killing, because that really is dehumanized, either with the target being a blip/image on a screen, or something inanimate like a vehicle or a building. Those don't usually come up against the issue at hand.

Now, let me ask you a question: Let's say for the sake of argument that your team was hired to blow up an abandoned building, and they decide to do the demo in daylight then clear out and blow it, because Johnson specifically requested a night demo. Then the next day after the demolition, the characters discover it was populated by squatters, some of them pregnant women and young children. Would your players and characters be so cold as to ignore something like that, even if it was accidental? (Think the "Command Bunker" in Bagdhand during Desert Storm, where at night it was an air raid shelter. A lot of the planners and the pilot reportedly wound up with "issues" after that.) Keep in mind, saying "Hey, they didn't tell us it was inhabited at night. Not our fault." is acctually a defense mechanism against guilt.

[kzt]

So you went through the building planting explosives and didn't notice them?

[Critias]

So you went through the building planting explosives and didn't notice them?

Kids're small. Perception modifiers add up fast, man.

[Ayeohx]

My gamers would be pissed. Especially since they would have checked the building beforehand. And they may go kill the Johnson if he said that there would be no squatters.

Now the gamers' characters, I can't say. One of the characters use to do this very sort of thing in the british military.

[Kerenshara]

The act of actually killing someone isn't the issue, is it? Its fear that keeps people in check.

Well, I was trying to address the act itself, or at least that was my intention.

Fear of God or damnation.
Fear of imprisonment.
Fear of isolation (when people ditch you).
Fear of death.
Fear of retaliation.

The more you cross off the list the more killing someone becomes okay.

Yes, there is more to it. I suppose the biggie is changing (ending) someone's life. If this isn't important to you then you'll probably sleep fine at nights.

I'm sure many of you could kill someone given the correct situation; especially if the law is willing to back you (defense, military, etc). Hell, given the right circumstances you'll be called a hero.
You killed that crazy guy who came into rob the store and he shot 3 people while doing so? You're a hero! And he had no family or friends, you've been cleared of any charges, you got an award, one month off work and you don't believe in an afterlife... I'd say you'd probably be pretty happy about ending that fellows life.

Shadowrunners, on the other hand, are not usually heroes to the general public. Yes, some admire them for striking back against the system, which I'm sure is the plot for many shadowrunner trids but most people wouldn't understand them. Some runners are heroes to their inner circles though (family, gangs, criminal affiliations) where killing is much more acceptable.

Now, all of this said, my gamers' characters use non-lethal methods and few want to do wetwork. Fear of reprisal keeps them in check.

Again, great post. Now I am starting to see the dialogue I was hoping for. I understand the fear of temporal and secular consequences, but I was actually more interested in the emotional and mental ones. Yes, fear of the results of the kill restrains the average person, or even shadowrunner. But shadowrunners are already criminals by definition, so other than the temporal threat, I can't see it but being that serious a deterrent. You and a few others are right, though, the more you kill, the more you tend to become numb to it. I liked the observation about point of view a lot, and that's probably worthy of its own thread. But it's not other's perceptions except in how that might reflect back to the actual person doing the killing. But that is why I originally (back at the very top) refered to the taking of a (meta)human life as the ultimate Taboo. Once you break taboo, it is no longer taboo to you, and it's just a habbit to break. But even for people who do it a LOT, eventually, if their concience and empathy survive, they will look back at the trail of corpses and have to do a little soul searching.
And as I mentioned as well, there are ways to deal with the guilt. Why do you think the suicide rate is actually so high with the conflicts in the Middle East amongst the American troops who serve multiple tours? Why do you think the stereotypical image of the grizzled veteran ALWAYS seems seems to involve alcohol? The people who have BEEN there, and seen the elephant, don't discuss that side of it with people who haven't; they often don't actually discuss it with each other. But they still congregate for the company of people they share a bond with, a bond others simply wouldn't understand, and if they did, would probably refuse to accept. Some turn to dangerous pursuits because it brings back the adrenaline surge that got them through the moment at the time. Still others find the soothing balm of drugs and cigarettes and similar substances a welcome way to help them step back from the sharp edges of memory, even if it can not blunt the edges themselves for long.

[Screaming Eagle]

Of course the kids were out working in the sweat shops, everyone living in the building was exausted from the long days nearly slave labour so they didn't note or didn't care to investigate the (probably) in plain sight explosives. Heck I've been so tired after work one time I'd been home nearly 15 minutes before I noticed someone had added another couch to my living room (main floor, central room, walked past it thrice at least). How much C-4 could you cram in a couch? Answer: far too much.

To address the question I try to leave it (role playing the shock, rationalization etc.) in the players hands and only point out horror they seem to be missing, the mage is more them welcome to ignore the astral quest warning and slowly her spirits will get more inclined to use engulf freely, possibly messily. Monsters are drawn to monsters, birds of a feather and all that.

On the other hand I tend to be gaming with a 25+ aged crowd. People tend to think more about the morality of their actions (even their imaginary ones) when there is a toddler in the room, especially if it's theirs.

[DWC]

It's kind of weird. Expressing the things that your character internalizes is a pain in the ass.

Case in point, last Sunday, a character of mine killed someone in cold blood. He picked a machine pistol and shot a bound, gagged, unconscious gang member. Everyone was shocked, and rightfully so. It was cold, dispassionate, and completely unnecessary. To him, at that moment, it seemed like the right thing to do. As things went on, it started to eat at him, and as more and more time goes by, it'll only get worse. But the character is already fairly introverted so there really won't be rational reason for him to talk about the incident with the other characters.

It's not that he's never killed anyone before. He has. Plenty of them. I've lost track of the actual number, but it's well into the double digits. Those were always people who presented an immediate danger to either him, or someone he was working with, or protecting. In each case, tribalism or self preservation outweighed what little connection he has to the social contract of western society, and he pulled the trigger. He never liked those cases, but they never bothered him, because he could justify them to himself.

[Ayeohx]

It's kind of weird. Expressing the things that your character internalizes is a pain in the ass.

Case in point, last Sunday, a character of mine killed someone in cold blood. He picked a machine pistol and shot a bound, gagged, unconscious gang member. Everyone was shocked, and rightfully so. It was cold, dispassionate, and completely unnecessary. To him, at that moment, it seemed like the right thing to do. As things went on, it started to eat at him, and as more and more time goes by, it'll only get worse. But the character is already fairly introverted so there really won't be rational reason for him to talk about the incident with the other characters.

It's not that he's never killed anyone before. He has. Plenty of them. I've lost track of the actual number, but it's well into the double digits. Those were always people who presented an immediate danger to either him, or someone he was working with, or protecting. In each case, tribalism or self preservation outweighed what little connection he has to the social contract of western society, and he pulled the trigger. He never liked those cases, but they never bothered him, because he could justify them to himself.

Good example. Lets pick this apart.

Why was his team members horrified?
Why does being introverted matter in this case?
Why does tribalism change his views of murder?
What does western society matter in the case of murder?
Why can't he justify killing this guy when he's probably killed "worse" people?

[Ayeohx]

I understand the fear of temporal and secular consequences, but I was actually more interested in the emotional and mental ones.

But it's not other's perceptions except in how that might reflect back to the actual person doing the killing.

But even for people who do it a LOT, eventually, if their concience and empathy survive, they will look back at the trail of corpses and have to do a little soul searching.
And as I mentioned as well, there are ways to deal with the guilt. Why do you think the suicide rate is actually so high with the conflicts in the Middle East amongst the American troops who serve multiple tours? Why do you think the stereotypical image of the grizzled veteran ALWAYS seems seems to involve alcohol? The people who have BEEN there, and seen the elephant, don't discuss that side of it with people who haven't; they often don't actually discuss it with each other. But they still congregate for the company of people they share a bond with, a bond others simply wouldn't understand, and if they did, would probably refuse to accept. Some turn to dangerous pursuits because it brings back the adrenaline surge that got them through the moment at the time. Still others find the soothing balm of drugs and cigarettes and similar substances a welcome way to help them step back from the sharp edges of memory, even if it can not blunt the edges themselves for long.

I've known snipers that have no apparent psychological issues. Some even tell their stories as if they were the greatest, most glorious moments of their lives.

Emotional and mental consequences can be derived from the people around you. Examine religion if you need an example. Cults for a better; though they are the same in my book. The mind can be tempered to accept extreme ideas given the correct stimuli. Even nationalism can inflict extreme views. Gangs can also work like this. Some people think murdering people, women, kids, whoever, can further their cause and regret nothing.

Shadowrunners aren't usually in it to further a greater cause though, they are in it for the money and thats it. This distinction has to be made. This separates a runner from a soldier, a ganger or a cultist. They are making a dicision to destroy lives for money.

And remember, not all shadowrunners kill. It seems that most runners rather not due to fear of reprisal. In my group few do and if anyone does he'd be kicked out of the team.

[Kerenshara]

My gamers would be pissed. Especially since they would have checked the building beforehand. And they may go kill the Johnson if he said that there would be no squatters.

Now the gamers' characters, I can't say. One of the characters use to do this very sort of thing in the british military.

Sorry. I guess I got too specific. I was trying to ask what would happen if they found out they accidentally killed a bunch of the people their "code" said were invalid targets. I wasn't implying your players are that sloppy or incompetent. That's on me.

[Kerenshara]

It's kind of weird. Expressing the things that your character internalizes is a pain in the ass.

Case in point, last Sunday, a character of mine killed someone in cold blood. He picked a machine pistol and shot a bound, gagged, unconscious gang member. Everyone was shocked, and rightfully so. It was cold, dispassionate, and completely unnecessary. To him, at that moment, it seemed like the right thing to do. As things went on, it started to eat at him, and as more and more time goes by, it'll only get worse. But the character is already fairly introverted so there really won't be rational reason for him to talk about the incident with the other characters.

It's not that he's never killed anyone before. He has. Plenty of them. I've lost track of the actual number, but it's well into the double digits. Those were always people who presented an immediate danger to either him, or someone he was working with, or protecting. In each case, tribalism or self preservation outweighed what little connection he has to the social contract of western society, and he pulled the trigger. He never liked those cases, but they never bothered him, because he could justify them to himself.

But, see, you're making my point FOR me in this case. I don't need somebody to be extroverted, I just am fascinated about how they really ARE internalizing their assimilation of their actions. You ARE dealing with it. That is what's important, and I feel certain your character's future actions will reflect whatever conclusions they come to.

[DWC]

Good example. Lets pick this apart.

Why was his team members horrified?
Why does being introverted matter in this case?
Why does tribalism change his views of murder?
What does western society matter in the case of murder?
Why can't he justify killing this guy when he's probably killed "worse" people?

I'd imagine the horror was closer to shock. It was a moment of complete sociopathy that seemed completely out of left field, or at least that's how I interpreted their reactions.

The introversion matters because if I hadn't brought it up here in the midst of this discussion, it's one of those things that never would have come out. Hell, I hadn't even mentioned its' effect on him to my GM.

The tribalism is an issue because he grew up in a very "us versus them" family, which extended the animal sense of self preservation to justifying protecting the people he chooses to surround himself with. Western society matters in that the impediment to murder is largely ingrained as part of living within a society, as a mechanism to preserve the society. If no one has a problem with killing, then large groups can't co-exist because disputes will escalate to violence and death too quickly.

If he thought about it, he could probably find a way to justify it, but it'd be far more of a stretch than "because he was shooting at me". To be honest, the ganger was hardly innocent. He was bound and gagged in the back of a van because he'd shown up at a book signing to attempt to assassinate someone.

[Kerenshara]

I've known snipers that have no apparent psychological issues. Some even tell their stories as if they were the greatest, most glorious moments of their lives.

Yeah, me too. And being very close to them, I can tell you there are some deep seated and well concealed scars relating to it as well. One (on the only occasion I ever saw them drink) told me about an occasion where they dropped a high level... person in Iraq from a relatively close range. The thing that messed him up was that the person's kid came out and picked up the RPG the person had been carrying when they dropped and pointed it back in the general direction of my friend and fired. My friend didn't think. They dropped the kid. And despite the assertions the kid was a valid target - which they were - I know it is something they are still uncomfortable with.

Shadowrunners aren't usually in it to further a greater cause though, they are in it for the money and thats it. This distinction has to be made. This separates a runner from a soldier, a ganger or a cultist. They are making a dicision to destroy lives for money.

An excellent point, and one I hoped would come up. Which is why it's a relevant question to ask how they feel about... what was the quote? "Destroy other people's lives"?

[The Jake]

Kids're small. Perception modifiers add up fast, man.

That made me laugh out loud. LOL.

- J.