GM having problem with a runner Options

[Trigen]

Ok, so I run a game and I was having a problem dealing with a player, so i figured I'd come here and ask for help. My problem is as follows...

I have a runner in a group who tends to rather vocally complain out of character about pretty much everything, he complained when the stuff the group was doing didn't focus on stuff he was good at, so i crafted a run specifically to be right up his ally (He is an investigator, so in the run the guys got framed for a heist and the local syndicate wanted their stuff back, and the team had to track down who ever set them up and get the stuff back). He pretty much just complained all session... then when i told him to shut it that the session had been made for him so he needed to be quiet he told the rest of the group when i went to the rest room that he was pissed that I made a run specifically for his character 'cause he hates his character... He now says that he wants to redo his character without making a new one, just change what he does...

I'm at a loss for what to do, he's a friend so I don't want to simply kick him out of the party, but I'm also running a pretty hardcore gritty game here so I don't like the idea of people simply remaking/making new characters at a whim when ever their half baked idea doesn't seem new anymore. Also through circumstances in the game it really doesn't make any sense why anyone would A) Want to join them or B) why they would trust anyone enough to let them in.... so it's pretty against the story to have a new character enter.

Any help you guys can give would be greatly appreciated, i'm afraid I can't give any more specifics about the game because a few of my players browse this board and I'm trying to stay somewhat incognito..

[Nkari]

Just hit him over the head and tell him to quit being an ass and ruining it for everyone else.. simple really.. if he cant handle the critics then he shouldnt be socialicing.. =)

[Blade]

Does he just complain because of his character, or does something else bother him?
What does he look for in your games? I've had similar trouble with a player who just wasn't looking for the same thing as the rest of the group and whose playstyle was totally inadapted to ours. That's why I always stress the ambiance and style I'm looking for before starting a game.
What do you mean by "redo his character without making a new one"? Does he wants to change the stats or just the personality?

[Stahlseele]

Probably both.

[Uli]

Try to talk with him once in private or together with the group. Tell him what bothers you or all of you. Then tell him about unnegotiable consequences for his inappropriate behavior and give him a choice: To grow a pair, accept criticism, and play cooperatively with the fellow players and the GM or to leave the group. His choice.

[Trigen]

Probably both.

Aye, since he knows it doesn't make any sense for a new person to join their group he wants to essentially make a new character with the same name and act like it's the same person despite the new stats and personality.

[Stahlseele]

He should have thought about that when making the character in the first place.
invest in skill-wires and some replacement-parts, like limbs, and you can make yourself into whatever you feel like at the moment.

[Wasabi]

I'm pretty much a hardass but I feel pretty strongly players should have an emotional attachment to their characters. I don't know if your player mightve inherited his character from somewhere else, come into the game without knowledge of the other teammembers and what they bring to the table, maybe someone heavily influenced his character creation, I dunno... but he doesn't seem to be into his character.

In my opinion take a swift incision and handle the problem. Ask to meet him at a restaurant somewhere [neutral territory outside of both people's comfort zones] and outline your goals for the game like you did earlier in this thread with its tension and grittiness. Then after you've share the Vision for your game, ask him why his character doesn't fit into that world, and when he says it doesn't, ask him what needs to be present in a character for him to have fun in your Vision of a world.

Then accomodate it.

At that point he should have no complaints. He's played it some, he's got a chance to get whatever he wants in a 'next' character, and your conscience is clear to kick him if he continues his pollution of negativity.

Thats my take. Bend over backwards so he has zero reasons to be dissident and if it continues after that he's 100% brought it on his damned self.

[Blade]

If his vision of the game is compatible with yours and the only problem is his character, you can still use the amnesia to let him develop a new personality for his character but for the stats it'll be a bit more complicated.

[Fuchs]

I would try to ask him (and the rest of the group as well, so no one is singled out) what they expect out of the game, what was done right, and what should be done in a different way, etc. If it's just his character that ruzins his fun I'd let him change it. I don't really see where the harm would be to either the group or the campaign.

If it is so hard to get a new character into the group I assume you do not kill off PCs either.

[Necro Sanct]

I see you mention that he complains about everything out of character. Does this apply to just the game or is it more of a case that basically anything is open to complaint (Grouch Syndrome)? If it is the first, perhaps the suggestion above might be the best route. I usually work alongside each individual player I plan to gm for in advance to sort out expectations. If it is the second reason it is a slippery slope to go down.

[The Jake]

Is he a new player?

If he's a new player (either new to RPGs or new to SR) it might make sense - he might feel he doesn't have a strong enough grasp of the rules to play that character. It also would explain why he felt pressured when you created an adventure specifically for him (which is a bad idea in a group setting in the first place mind you, which I will come to in a second). If that is the case, I would let him make a new character that he is comfortable with - keeping it relatively simple. I.e. a Street samurai or some sort of combatant, as opposed to a magician or hacker-type.

If he's just an asshole player, then usually I try a) pulling them aside and talking to them politely but privately b) chastising him openly if he keeps being an asshat at the table or option of last resort c) tell him to GTFO.

Nobody likes booting a player - especially a close friend, but trust me - its nothing compared to the pain of having it sour the experience of everyone else at the table as well as sour any joy you may get at GMing (it's a thankless enough job as it is!). Better to severe a limb to save the whole.

Re: making an adventure around a single player
This is often a bad idea for numerous reasons:
1) if said player doesn't turn up, you're often hosed unless you have a backup scenario in mind
2) it can breed resentment from the other players (unless you've already done it with them)
3) it places enormous pressure on some players (especially if they're inexperienced or shy)

The way I deal with this is to typically have a main 'plot' for the adventure but weave in an underlying subplot that involves that player. That way all the players are engaged and it is simple to introduce new elements that may involve one or more individual characters. It also means you're not stuck waiting on that one individual.

YMMV, but thats my take on it.

- J.

[deek]

In my first campaign, we were all new to SR4, so I let each player adjust their character up until they spent their first points of karma. This allowed players to tweak things based on actual gameplay before being stuck with poor scores or even completely redo their character if they didn't like the feel. It worked out really well.

Form my second campaign (same group, and this one just started this week), everyone is more knowledgeable and expectations were laid out ahead of time. I also reviewed each character before the first session and made each character available to each other just to check things out and make sure, as a group, all bases were covered.

So, for this problem player, if he really doesn't like his current character, I'd let him remake him, keep the same name, background or whatever. Sometimes you just have to suspend believe to cater to the group. Often times when someone doesn't show up, we just play without him...don't give an in-game reason or anything, and when he comes back next session, no explanation. Its just easier to not worry about that sort of thing and focus on the game and players when they are available.

[Murrdox]

So, for this problem player, if he really doesn't like his current character, I'd let him remake him, keep the same name, background or whatever. Sometimes you just have to suspend believe to cater to the group. Often times when someone doesn't show up, we just play without him...don't give an in-game reason or anything, and when he comes back next session, no explanation. Its just easier to not worry about that sort of thing and focus on the game and players when they are available.

Agree. Sometimes you just have to "hand-wave" and make an adjustment like this. In our D&D group, one of our players tried playing a Bard. Three playing sessions later she figured out why people don't play Bards. We hand-waved, and now she's a Druid.

Sometimes you have to sacrifice a bit of story cohesiveness to make sure everyone is having fun. Hopefully it will stop him from complaining?

[Wesley Street]

I have the same problem-player. Let him remake the PC. You're playing a game, not writing a novel; you only need to sell the story cohesiveness to yourselves. In my case I don't let him carry karma or cash over to the new character but that's a judgment call you will need to make.

In the future I'd be wary of writing any adventures that are centric to his character. If he complains about being excluded, tell him its impossible for you to craft anything for him until he settles down.

[DireRadiant]

Work with the group and the player and talk about it. Introducing new players and starting games always takes a bit to hash out. Everyone has to give a little. It's a social thing to work it out, not a game mechanic.

[SincereAgape]

A few things. Everyone has offered great suggestions so far. The problem appears to be stemming from his current character. So I agree with letting him remake everything in its entirety.
If that is not the problem. Then talk with him when things are going well. After that prepared to be patient. A change in someone's personality is not going to occur overnight and is something that takes time. It might have to take multiple talks. Finally. Don't make any more sessions especially geared for his character. Enabling is wrong. Don't make the other PCs pay because of his antics.

[cREbralFIX]

Dunno...but my attitude is that it's just a game. Games are for fun.

Does this player ruin the fun for the other participants? It's obvious he's ruining it for you. If redoing his character will solve the problem, then REDO THE CHARACTER. Wave your magic wand, everyone will nod and agree "Oh, yeah, that guy really is a <insert role here>" and move on. Forget "continuity" blah blah blah...it's just a game and the game exists for fun. People who cannot get past that concept need to lighten up and think about what a game is.

Then, perhaps a slight modification of the player-meta rules are needed:

1) The GM is a player too.
2) Games are for fun for all participants.
3) The game is not a competition. If you want competition, go play a sport.
4) The GM and other players are not interfering with your fantasy. Work with the group to create the fantasy.
5) All player characters shall work well together. No loners; they don't work well with others by definition (and make for dull role playing).
6) All PC's shall have a foil. A foil is another PC who can do something your PC cannot AND whose personality has a facet that is stronger than yours. For example, if your PC is a compulsive liar, the foil will be the person to correct each lie.


Put this up on your GM screen or on the wall as a reminder. When the attitudes start to come out, review it with the group.

[PBI]

Everything depends on what will make the game fun. If breaking continuity will make the game fun, go for it. If it will make the game not fun for the other players, then your problem player needs to suck things up and make up a completely new character. He does have to bear some responsibility for how he feels about his character.

[Dikotana]

Runners die all the time. If you don't want to retool a character, arrange to have the offending PC die off-camera in whatever manner the two of you agree is appropriate and introduce a new character to your party. He obviously isn't invested in the character; it's probably best to start fresh.

[Method]

I would echo a lot of what has been said above.

1.) Talk to your players (all of them) about expectations.
2.) Talk to this player in particular about what he does and doesn't like and figure out how to help him enjoy the game.
3.) Sometimes you just can't please everyone. You might have to make some though decisions.

Also, it could be that this particular player just enjoys changing characters frequently. Some people are "monogamous"- they enjoy creating a character and seeing that character through to the very end (i.e.- death 90% of the time). Other people are "polygamists"- they enjoy experiencing the world through numerous different characters, but seldom get attached to anyone (as an aside- if they do find one they particularly enjoy it may help your cause). If you find that most of your players are basically content, but wouldn't mind a change of pace consider having revolving story lines and rotating through different groups every other week or month or whatever. If you're lucky, maybe another player (maybe this problem player if you're really lucky) would like to try their hand at GMing and you'd actually get to play (and learn about how your players envision the world).

Good luck!!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Also, it could be that this particular player just enjoys changing characters frequently. Some people are "monogamous"- they enjoy creating a character and seeing that character through to the very end (i.e.- death 90% of the time). Other people are "polygamists"- they enjoy experiencing the world through numerous different characters, but seldom get attached to anyone (as an aside- if they do find one they particularly enjoy it may help your cause). If you find that most of your players are basically content, but wouldn't mind a change of pace consider having revolving story lines and rotating through different groups every other week or month or whatever. If you're lucky, maybe another player (maybe this problem player if you're really lucky) would like to try their hand at GMing and you'd actually get to play (and learn about how your players envision the world).

Good luck!!

I am of the Polygamist camp of roleplaying...

[The Jake]

I would echo a lot of what has been said above.

1.) Talk to your players (all of them) about expectations.
2.) Talk to this player in particular about what he does and doesn't like and figure out how to help him enjoy the game.
3.) Sometimes you just can't please everyone. You might have to make some though decisions.

Also, it could be that this particular player just enjoys changing characters frequently. Some people are "monogamous"- they enjoy creating a character and seeing that character through to the very end (i.e.- death 90% of the time). Other people are "polygamists"- they enjoy experiencing the world through numerous different characters, but seldom get attached to anyone (as an aside- if they do find one they particularly enjoy it may help your cause). If you find that most of your players are basically content, but wouldn't mind a change of pace consider having revolving story lines and rotating through different groups every other week or month or whatever. If you're lucky, maybe another player (maybe this problem player if you're really lucky) would like to try their hand at GMing and you'd actually get to play (and learn about how your players envision the world).

Good luck!!

That is actually quite insightful.

I'm definitely of the monogamous camp. A mate of mine has a D&D campaign we've been running for well over 3 years now. My character is around level 16 and has gone through so many changes in terms of personality it feels like a character for a TV series, I'm so intimately in tune with that I know exactly what he'd do and how he'd react in any situation. I like accumulating power but its something else when you can back it up with so much roleplaying experience that you can tell exactly how and when the character has evolved over time. Funnily enough he's arguable the weakest party member in a straight up fight but so diversified and crafty, he's definitely someone you'd want backing you up - no matter where you are.

- J.

[Warlordtheft]

I had a discussion about the campaign with the PCs before it got started.That might be the way to, have a group discussion (not an aside with the problem PC). That way everyone has a say in the style of game run. I will add that SR is one of those RPG games that accomodates many different styles of play.

[Snow_Fox]

He needs to understand he's taking the fun out of the game for other people. you've tried to accoadate him and he's still complaining. He needs to be told it's not all about him and if he continues being disruptive and having a bad time he would probably have more fun staying home since apaprently it's too hard for him to comeo ut too.

Aye, since he knows it doesn't make any sense for a new person to join their group he wants to essentially make a new character with the same name and act like it's the same person despite the new stats and personality.

Why? people in the shadows come and go all the time.