House Ruling: Free Spirit PCs, Can they be fixed for players Options

[Draco18s]

Not quite correct. Free Spirits start off at Force 2 and their attributes start at Force. Then again, the section regarding Free Spirit PCs is a bit vague on the attributes part, especially with the verbiage stating Force is their minimum and maximum attribute rating.

I mostly skipped that section, TBH...

[Chibu]

So... I was just reading over the rules for Free Spirit PCs... You all really think that a starting character with 12 Hardened Armor, that can't really die anyway, isn't overpowered? SR4 must be even more absurd than I though if that's the case (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[tr0n]

I'm going back a bit in the thread here as I'm just catching up but...

Really, it's just not realistic to play a free spirit as a shadowrunner. They don't need to make money, as they have no particular need for it, (don't eat etc.) And unless they are a friend of (or forced by) someone, they probably have no real motivation to further the goals of random Johnsons that would hire them. And, since free spirits cannot get karma on their own, from experiance, they have to get it from other people via a ritual, which is also not conducive to PC play.

So, as I said, unless Free Spirits have been completely re-written (to not be free spirits anymore), they probably just SHOULDN'T be played.

As a rule, our group generally doesn't allow people in our games to play the opposite sex, and we don't allow people to play afterthought archetypes (i.e. weird things found in the fluff that clearly don't behave or think as a human) due to the inherent difficulty in being able to accurately portray this type of personality in roleplay, and also because it's sometimes difficult to fathom why the creature would even bother.

In this case, however, Free Spirits are quite a bit more human than you may think. Some of them even more so than your average joe. They are wildly passionate and fiercly curious critters. It would be a snap to play a free spirit that just wants to fit in and wants to enjoy life with his/her new found human friends. Besides, what more reason does a Free Spirit need to do anything other than it would be fun and exciting?

I say let the good times roll! Free Spirits can enjoy my game anytime they like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Muspellsheimr]

So... I was just reading over the rules for Free Spirit PCs... You all really think that a starting character with 12 Hardened Armor, that can't really die anyway, isn't overpowered? SR4 must be even more absurd than I though if that's the case (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Considering that a 400BP Magician can send 6+ spirits, each significantly more powerful than a single 400BP Free Spirit, to do his dirty work without ever leaving his apartment, or gimping his spellcasting capabilities - yes, they are fucking underpowered.


In a Build Point game, making a Free Spirit (as written) is basically identical to making by far the least useful character in the group.


Hardened Armor, until you get to at least Force 8, is not something to brag about - at all.

[kzt]

The are actually capable of doing things that are totally impossible for any other character and can blow up most games if used right. If you try to use them as a normal character you'll be disappointed. However I should also warn you that TMs make crappy gunbunnies.

If you use karmabuild a free spirit is much more powerful.

[Muspellsheimr]

The are actually capable of doing things that are totally impossible for any other character and can blow up most games if used right. If you try to use them as a normal character you'll be disappointed. However I should also warn you that TMs make crappy gunbunnies.

Anything a Free Spirit can do, a Magician can duplicate, either directly or through (summoned/bound spirit) proxy. Said magician built with 400 BP will be significantly more powerful than the Free Spirit built with the same resources.

If you use karmabuild a free spirit is much more powerful.

Although the Free Spirit rules are crap, I have shown this particular issue to be a problem with the Karma Generation rules on multiple occasions, and it has been confirmed multiple times that this will be (at least partially) fixed, specifically in regards to Free Spirits and other 'advanced' character options.

[HappyDaze]

The are actually capable of doing things that are totally impossible for any other character and can blow up most games if used right.

They are find certain things - mainly AR/VR and simsense totally impossible to use. Depending on the game, that means they may miss out on a lot. I'm not sure if First Aid can be used on them, and if it can't, that can be pretty significant.

[Neraph]

With KarmaGen you don't have to pay the 250 point cost. ..

Right, you have to pay twice the racial cost. So it'd be 500 karma just to be a PoS Force 2 spirit with no powers, skills, or spells. If you want to house rule that you don't pay racial costs, that's fine, but RAW you pay x2.

[darthmord]

Umm Neraph, I'm fairly certain that you DON'T pay racial costs in Karmagen.

[kzt]

It actually says you do and you don't. The writer of that section stated that you do not.

[Muspellsheimr]

It actually says you do and you don't. The writer of that section stated that you do not.

Quote?

At no point in RAW Karma Generation does it say you must pay for your race.

Which is the single greatest reason RAW Karma Generation is bullshit.

[Malicant]

More like it's begging to be abused. It works as intended, though. Or so They claim.

[Neraph]

Wow, I will never allow people to use Karmagen for my games, ever. It is so ridiculously broken it's not even funny. That's the GM in me talking.

As a player, however, I really want to use it now.

The karmagen system is seriously like a BDSM preferred-role victim, always looking for the perfect agressor to initiate a relationship with (but I loooOOoove him!).

[Jhaiisiin]

Err... broken? Howso? I've run side-by side comparisons with characters and all but the free-spirits have similar point costs... Granted, you end up having to lower starting karma to around 600, but I've never see it be too broken. What did I miss?

[Muspellsheimr]

Your starting Karma is directly linked to which race you play, in inverse of what it should be.

Humans are the worst in the system. As you progress through more powerful races, you still pay nothing, & gain all the racial features, effectively giving you 'free Karma' from the racial modifiers (which where previously balanced by a cost to play the race - the cost was rarely a proper reflection of what benefits you received, but at least it was there).

Basically, instead of costing me 40BP, playing as a Troll now gives me ~80 additional Karma.

[Jhaiisiin]

But it doesn't. If you start with 600 karma and pick a troll, you still get 600 karma. You just have more available to spend on attributes, which is good because getting those attributes like body and str up is going to cost you a ton.

[Draco18s]

But it doesn't. If you start with 600 karma and pick a troll, you still get 600 karma. You just have more available to spend on attributes, which is good because getting those attributes like body and str up is going to cost you a ton.

Or you know, you could play something silly. Like a troll mage. Who can take a shot because he's a troll.

Under the BP system you'd have trouble being as good as you could be under Karma.

[Jhaiisiin]

True, at the base values listed in RC for Karma Gen. As has been mentioned on this board in numerous spots, the Karma Gen system at 750 karma *always* generates more powerful characters than 400bp, and many people recommended a better number of 600 or 650.

As an example, I made a 400bp Fomori Mage that was 695 Karma to do the same exact character. Karma gen isn't broken. The *amount* of karma given for the generation is.

[Muspellsheimr]

But it doesn't. If you start with 600 karma and pick a troll, you still get 600 karma. You just have more available to spend on attributes, which is good because getting those attributes like body and str up is going to cost you a ton.

Bullshit.

The Troll receives +4 Strength (10 + 15 + 20 + 25 Karma), +4 Body (10 + 15 + 20 + 25 Karma), Natural Thermographic (10 Karma), +1 Reach (10 Karma), & +1 Natural Armor (+20 Karma), -2 Charisma (-20 Karma), -1 Logic (-10 Karma), & -1 Intuition (-10 Karma).

Net Gain: 140 Karma.



The Human receives +1 Edge (10 Karma).

Net Gain: 10 Karma.


Difference: 130 Karma.

The Troll, under RAW Karma Generation, is effectively given 130 Karma more than the Human. Do not try to tell me this is supposed to be balanced. Do not try pulling that crap about how 'it costs the Troll more to raise it's Strength than a Human'; Troll cost for 6 Strength - 30 Karma. Human cost for 6 Strength - 100 Karma.
6 Strength is equivalent to 6 Strength, regardless of how you obtained it. It gives you the same lifting capacity (as little as it comes into play), the same recoil compensation, the same everything. Further, the Human is at the natural maximum and cannot increase it further; the Troll is far from it, and can continue to increase it as desired.

[Jhaiisiin]

I am so not getting into this discussion again. If you want a Troll with human attributes, play a surged human. If you want a troll that takes advantage of his higher maximums on certain stats, then take and raise those stats. It's that simple.

[The Jake]

I am so not getting into this discussion again. If you want a Troll with human attributes, play a surged human. If you want a troll that takes advantage of his higher maximums on certain stats, then take and raise those stats. It's that simple.

Yes but how does that make karmagen fair on the human?

- J.

[Jhaiisiin]

Okay, with BP, use 10BP on each attribute (not including edge or magic) for a troll. Total cost to go to that is 100BP
No take a human to the exact same rating for everything to match the trolls stats. Total cost for that is 120BP. And that's not including the troll's armor or thermo. Troll makes out better in that regard.

So technically, *neither* system is fair to humans if you want to play that route.

[Muspellsheimr]

I am so not getting into this discussion again. If you want a Troll with human attributes, play a surged human. If you want a troll that takes advantage of his higher maximums on certain stats, then take and raise those stats. It's that simple.

Fluff. Cinematics. Flavor. All of which are irrelevant when discussing rules & mechanics. And like it or not, Build Point / Karma costs & numerical modifiers are rules & mechanics.

Okay, with BP, use 10BP on each attribute (not including edge or magic) for a troll. Total cost to go to that is 100BP
No take a human to the exact same rating for everything to match the trolls stats. Total cost for that is 120BP. And that's not including the troll's armor or thermo. Troll makes out better in that regard.

So technically, *neither* system is fair to humans if you want to play that route.

Trolls should have a Build Point value/cost of 50, as I have shown multiple times in the past. Regardless, that is irrelevant to this issue.

The above 10 BP (20 Karma) difference is noticeable, but relatively minor (unlike Ork/Ogre/Oni, it is not strictly worse or better than another option).

The 130 Karma difference (100 with my suggested system/costs) is a very significant difference.


Edit: I would also like to point out that your math is way the fuck off. Build Points, even ignoring the racial penalties, gives you 80 BP equivalent in attribute modifiers for the Troll. The Human, to match the base Troll stats, pays - guess what - 80 Build Points.

The Human attempting to match a 6Str/6Bod Troll is unable to do so at all under RAW generation, so the cost is largely irrelevant.

[Cthulhudreams]

Look basically karma gen is pretty dicey, but the problems are easily patched - you know as well as i do that making people pay 2 x racial BP costs and just adding the stat bonus on later fixes 90% of the stupidity and you can airbrush out the rest.

However, playing with Build points to build and karma gen is totally worse, because the incentives are different under both systems and you need to measure your 'karma efficency' at char gen which results in all your stats being 5 or 1. And buying more skills at character generation becomes better the long you play your campagin for, which means unless your players are psychic the power levels are never going to be balanced and someone is going to get the shaft.

Pick one and just do that. BP is better because it clunks less, but whatever.

Edit: Also runners companion seriously suffers from no-one read any of the other sections of the books. And free spirits are ludiciously bad under BP gen (seriously stat up a possession mage and compare - and the teleporting thing isn't even very good because you drop all your gear. And buying a bloody force 6 ally spirt is seriously 60 karma which is way better than an entire free spirit player character in addition to whatever else it is that you do), and they are playable under karma gen, unless of course you let mages initate at character generation in which case they can have someone better than the entire PC on the previous page and a pretty good mage.

[Neraph]

Edit: Also runners companion seriously suffers from no-one read any of the other sections of the books. And free spirits are ludiciously bad under BP gen (seriously stat up a possession mage and compare - and the teleporting thing isn't even very good because you drop all your gear. And buying a bloody force 6 ally spirt is seriously 60 karma which is way better than an entire free spirit player character in addition to whatever else it is that you do), and they are playable under karma gen, unless of course you let mages initate at character generation in which case they can have someone better than the entire PC on the previous page and a pretty good mage.

Force 6 Ally Spirit is 48 karma. It's cheaper than you make it appear, unless you're giving it additional powers and spells.